English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Northern_Brewer]

My recipe shows it at 9.8% of the total fermentables, based in my equipment profile and observed efficiencies over close to 200 brew sessions over the years. A little on the high side, but should be OK, especially if it helps to dry out the fermentation.

It's really not on the high side - historically 10-15% sugar was fairly common in British beers, although the perception of pressure from CAMRA has pushed most newer recipes into dropping adjuncts.

For a fairly "traditional" (at least say 1980s or earlier) bitter my usual suggestion is to start with as much sugar - or a bit more - than crystal, and then tweak it to your taste from there. And bear in mind that even the Fuller's partigyle only uses 7.2% light crystal, most of the country uses less than that - and bitter is generally paler than foreigners think, and the ones that are brownish generally use caramel rather than speciality malts to get that colour.

By way of example, a pint of TT Boltmaker (in a slightly dirty glass at Taylor's own Woolly Sheep in Skipton)

 

[Miraculix]

I like 10 to 15 %. I don't get much from 5% tbh.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

"Morgenstern hat gold im Mund"
["The Morningstar has Gold in its Mouth"]

And while we're on the off-topic and I'm reminiscing my horrific butchering of the German language, I recall years ago being in a university chorus performing Beethoven's 9th Symphony (natürlich auf deutsch), and this couplet from the Third Movement (the "Ode to Joy") came to mind:

"Freude trinken alle Wesen
An den Brusten der Natur:
Alle Guten, alle Bosen,
Folgen ihrer Rosenspur."

In my perverse sense of humor I couldn't resist substituting the first word with "schadenfreude", given the recent news of the day. I'll leave it to others to translate, and to figure out the not so hidden relevance. Now I can't get the damn lyric out of my mind.

Chuck Berry as well as Beethoven are surely rolling over in their graves.

A genius and a deaf composer.

 

[Broothru]

It's really not on the high side - historically 10-15% sugar was fairly common in British beers, although the perception of pressure from CAMRA has pushed most newer recipes into dropping adjuncts.

For a fairly "traditional" (at least say 1980s or earlier) bitter my usual suggestion is to start with as much sugar - or a bit more - than crystal, and then tweak it to your taste from there. And bear in mind that even the Fuller's partigyle only uses 7.2% light crystal, most of the country uses less than that - and bitter is generally paler than foreigners think, and the ones that are brownish generally use caramel rather than speciality malts to get that colour.

By way of example, a pint of TT Boltmaker (in a slightly dirty glass at Taylor's own Woolly Sheep in Skipton)
View attachment 818497

Thank you. Just the kind of data I need to pull off a successful brew session. Couldn’t agree more with the CAMRA ‘suggestions’ regarding crystal malts. What’s unclear is if the trends and tastes of beer drinkers is driving that train, or whether CAMRA is dictating to beer drinkers what they will drink and like. Either way, that’s the overall arc of brewing, especially in the last 3~5 years.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Couldn’t agree more with the CAMRA ‘suggestions’ regarding crystal malts.

Just to be clear - by adjuncts I'm talking about unmalted stuff like sugar and maize, as opposed to speciality malts like crystal. In CAMRA's eyes the use of sugar was symbolic of the beers they fought against in the 1970s like Watney Red, so in their view the True Believers of "Real" (sic) Ale™ could only possibly brew all-grain. And over the course of the last 30-40 years they've persuaded many brewers to go all-grain, certainly sugar is a relatively rare ingredient in new recipes of <5%.

The fact that their view completely ignores centuries of British brewing history is neither here nor there.

Crystal is a lot more complicated, as it varies so much by region, at least in traditional bitter. It's probably most used in the Thames Valley so that's what the tourists experience, whereas there's far less up north - notably with the likes of Boddington using none at all.

But yeah, most of the cask beers showing off 21st century hops tend to be pale wherever you go.

CAMRA is dictating to beer drinkers what they will drink and like.

That's literally why CAMRA was founded! But CAMRA politics is a whole other thread...

 

[Colindo]

I'm looking for the 'marmalade' but want to avoid too much sweet. I do like the way Pub ferments with regards to speed and clarity, but I 'm also concerned with under-attenuation leading to residual sweetness.

Then you might also want to try WLP007. Also, keep in mind I have rarely used sugars so far, so my experience with any yeast is more on the sweet side compared to those who use a nice invert regularly.

Regarding the dropping of sugar from many recipes since the 90s, I noticed that Cask Marque requires a Reinheitsgebot-like grain bill with malts only. So that's not helping either.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

TT's Landlord has sugar listed as an ingredient on their website.
I don't know if CAMRA has backed off a bit in their "sugar bad" stance.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

We now have a sugar tax on soft drinks in the UK, I wonder if it applies to beer as well.

 

[DuncB]

It is about the advantage of getting up early and getting stuff done...

Not about that it's a nice sunny morning as per the sun and gold.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I noticed that Cask Marque requires a Reinheitsgebot-like grain bill with malts only. So that's not helping either.

Citation? I've never heard of that, and you might want to tell the various Taylor's pubs I've been in with CM accreditation...

TT's Landlord has sugar listed as an ingredient on their website.
I don't know if CAMRA has backed off a bit in their "sugar bad" stance.

Not really, but it's got to the point where it's no longer much of an issue.

 

[Broothru]

Just to be clear - by adjuncts I'm talking about unmalted stuff like sugar and maize, as opposed to speciality malts like crystal. In CAMRA's eyes the use of sugar was symbolic of the beers they fought against in the 1970s like Watney Red, so in their view the True Believers of "Real" (sic) Ale™ could only possibly brew all-grain. And over the course of the last 30-40 years they've persuaded many brewers to go all-grain, certainly sugar is a relatively rare ingredient in new recipes of <5%.

The fact that their view completely ignores centuries of British brewing history is neither here nor there.

Crystal is a lot more complicated, as it varies so much by region, at least in traditional bitter. It's probably most used in the Thames Valley so that's what the tourists experience, whereas there's far less up north - notably with the likes of Boddington using none at all.

But yeah, most of the cask beers showing off 21st century hops tend to be pale wherever you go.


That's literally why CAMRA was founded! But CAMRA politics is a whole other thread...

Your post launched me down an all-day rabbit hole. I thought I knew a thing or two about brewing malts, but quickly learned there was a major gap when it comes to crystal/caramel malts. I had always believed (learned, heard) that they were the same thing. Not so! Actually there are major distinctions and differences.

It came at an opportune time for me as I’m prepping for a lot of English-style brewing. It’s a style I’ve enjoyed but never set out to brew or master myself. That was until @Miraculix and others like yourself started posting and contributing to threads about the style. Very interesting stuff.

Suffice to say that British crystal (kilned) and U.S. caramel (roasted) are quite different and result in fundamentally different beers. I’m glad I got the ‘education’ while I still have time to make adjustments prior to brewing.

 

[Colindo]

Citation?

I might have misunderstood them back when I watched their videos on cask ale, but the way they mention it in this video for example, I just took it for granted that this definition is their requirement for the Marque

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I might have misunderstood them back when I watched their videos on cask ale, but the way they mention it in this video for example, I just took it for granted that this definition is their requirement for the Marque

If you mean what she says at 0:34 then no, she's just doing the primary school version of what goes into beer, suitable for a 2-minute YouTube video, it's nothing more than that.

In any case, Cask Marque don't really have that much influence, they're something that senior managers in pub chains love, as it says that they're Doing Something about cask quality but it's more of a tick-box thing that nobody in the real world pays that much attention to.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

We now have a sugar tax on soft drinks in the UK, I wonder if it applies to beer as well.

No. For one the tax is based on sugar in what the consumer drinks - whereas in beer it's converted to alcohol.

And the clue is in the name - it's not a sugar tax, it's a Soft Drinks Industry Levy, the rules explicitly exclude any drinks of >1.2% alcohol. There's also a bunch of exceptions, like de-alcoholised beer or wine.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-your-drink-is-liable-for-the-soft-drinks-industry-levy

 

[Cheshire Cat]

No. For one the tax is based on sugar in what the consumer drinks - whereas in beer it's converted to alcohol.

And the clue is in the name - it's not a sugar tax, it's a Soft Drinks Industry Levy, the rules explicitly exclude any drinks of >1.2% alcohol. There's also a bunch of exceptions, like de-alcoholised beer or wine.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-your-drink-is-liable-for-the-soft-drinks-industry-levy

I was tongue in cheek

 

[tracer bullet]

I did find a store (hophero.com) that seems legit and shows both Challenger and Admiral in stock. I've got some unopened First Gold already on hand. I think I'll plan to do 100% First Gold and see how it goes. One or both Challenger or Admiral (Probably Admiral) would be next. I'll continue to resist the urge to throw some bagged orange peel in it!

I'll be brewing tomorrow, fingers crossed.

Question - I already bought my grains, and milled them last night, so it's a bit late to think of this... regarding the "earthy" flavors I've been asking about, could my roughly 5% Simpsons DRC Double Roast Crystal potentially be causing it? I find it to be "fruity", in a raisin flavored sort of way. Sweet, also with perhaps toffee type flavors. I don't recall an earthiness to it but it's crossed my mind and I can't get it out of my head. I can simply eliminate it the next time around, and double up on the Medium instead, but wondered if anyone else has noticed unexpected flavors from DRC?

 

[InspectorJon]

I did find a store (hophero.com) that seems legit and shows both Challenger and Admiral in stock.

If that is the Hop Hero store In Sacramento, sadly they closed. I liked shopping there.

 

[tracer bullet]

Yeah, well, since that post the website has definitely gone down. Dang.

 

[Broothru]

Yeah, well, since that post the website has definitely gone down. Dang.

Northwest Hop Farms. I was finally able to find Challenger, Northdown and First Gold. Half-pound is minimum order size, per ounce price is ‘reasonable’, but shipping is expensive. They offer seven different shipping options, so pick your poison. USPS was cheapest for me, though still pricey for 1.5# hops. Looks like I’ll be brewing a lot of bitters!

 

[eshea3]

That should be really nice, if you want a more yorkshire-ish bitter, go low on crystal and high on AA and bitternes.

Pretty much the foundation of my bitter recipe

http://brewlocal.blogspot.com/2009/09/dann-paquettes-guidelines-for-proper.html?m=1

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

As a sort of side note to people trying to brew a proper bitter, after comparing my earlier attempts and later ones to commercial "Northern" bitters (Black Sheep, TT, Theakston etc) I have discovered you can usually go harder on the late and dry hops than many recipes suggest.
My usual schedule is 30g @ 20 min and 15g dry hop for a 1.040 OG 20L batch.

 

[Witherby]

As a sort of side note to people trying to brew a proper bitter, after comparing my earlier attempts and later ones to commercial "Northern" bitters (Black Sheep, TT, Theakston etc) I have discovered you can usually go harder on the late and dry hops than many recipes suggest.
My usual schedule is 30g @ 20 min and 15g dry hop for a 1.040 OG 20L batch.

For example, all those hops in the hop back in the Timothy Taylor brewery tour video.

 

[beren]

What are the thoughts on water chemistry? Water Profile: nervous about mineral levels says us Americans are doing it wrong.

 

[cire]

What are the thoughts on water chemistry? Water Profile: nervous about mineral levels says us Americans are doing it wrong.

No you are not doing it wrong, just keep those American profiles for American beers.

This is was the profile for my latest beer, a bitter, brewed last Saturday and to be racked to a pressure barrel tomorrow. The treated water profile is in the last column on the right in orange. The spreadsheet is specifically for my water supply that determines ion levels from a TDS meter reading. You might compare that to that advised by Murphy and Son in the link you provided.

The following is an analysis of the major ions in an Old Speckled Hen beer brewed in Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk, where the water is about as hard as it gets in Britain. The brewing process incorporates many ions from the malt, but calcium, and to a slightly lesser degree magnesium, in brewing liquor are mostly left in the mash and with hot break, and in relatively smaller amounts in the FV. It isn't possible to accurately determine from a beer analysis what the brewing liquor mineral content was, but such measurements show significantly less minerals in American beer styles.

EDIT. Must remember to add the analysis, in mg/L

K 492.1mg/L, Ca 194.1, Mg 91.4, Na N/A, PO4 276, SO4 179, Chloride 512, NO3 10.

The above profile can be seen to be chloride forward.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I have discovered you can usually go harder on the late and dry hops than many recipes suggest.
My usual schedule is 30g @ 20 min and 15g dry hop for a 1.040 OG 20L batch.

Yeah, I tend to be generous - as a not-particularly-frequent brewer I tend to just throw a whole pack of 100g in, across 10min, flameout, whirlpool, dry hop (and sometimes bittering). It saves having packets left open and still works out cheaper than a few grams of Nectaron or whatever!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I have 3 profiles I use in my brewing, my tap water from a deep ground aquafier is pretty soft except for alkalinity (hco3) around 100mg/L and Na around 50-55 with some minor fluctuation from year to year.
Bitter: Na ~50 Cl ~120 So4 ~320
Mild, Brown or general darker and maltier ales: Na ~70-80 Cl ~230 So4 ~130
Porter: Na ~100 Cl ~300 So4 ~80
All profiles end up with Ca in the 150-200 range.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I have 2 beers that I won't be able to taste until coming autumn sometime that are using it...
But I took a first pint from a Red Ale yesterday that had a 50/50 mix of GP and Vienna.
It definitely had a more pronounced grainy, malty sweet-ish flavour with toasty breadiness, malty base flavour but just "beefier" and more of it if that makes sense?
Took a sample of my porter that will be kegged tonight and the same thing there, it seems to do what you expect a mild malt to do.
Gonna brew a mild loosely based on Ron's 1952 Lee's best mild soon, using all Simpson Vienna as base.

Well, boo. LHBS informs me that Simpson's Vienna is a special order.

Now I need recommendations. I'm looking to keep two base malts in stock. 1) A light, fresh grainy variety. When I've I run out of GP in this category, I'll replace it with Fawcett Optic. 2) A rich malty variety. This is where I was thinking Simpson's Vienna. I've just finished a sack of Simpson's Best Pale, wanting something richer. I'm not interested in making stepped mashes a thing, otherwise I'd go Chev.

Suggestions, preferences in the direction of historic mild malt?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I think any UK vienna is basically (not) mild malt.
Crisp's Vienna is said to be good aswell.

 

[beren]

The following is an analysis of the major ions in an Old Speckled Hen beer brewed in Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk, where the water is about as hard as it gets in Britain. The brewing process incorporates many ions from the malt, but calcium, and to a slightly lesser degree magnesium, in brewing liquor are mostly left in the mash and with hot break, and in relatively smaller amounts in the FV. It isn't possible to accurately determine from a beer analysis what the brewing liquor mineral content was, but such measurements show significantly less minerals in American beer styles.

So I know that boiling water will drive out many of the minerals, Bru'n'Water has both options for many traditional brewing locations. Does that mean that the mash may have very high levels but after boil much of it is left behind? Did European brewers normally boil the water to lessen the mineral content? I've been wondering about this. I did a northern brown ale which was good but I could tell the mineral profile was off, and adding some CaCl helped a lot but even with that it was still in the "American" range of minerals.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Many places have soft water.
I would care little about "historical profiles for cities" as brewers, especially British, have been altering brewing water since the mid 1800's.