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@Brooothru If you want the flavour of Verdant, but a second strain for more flocculation, simply adding a bit of Notthingham will probably be easiest. Pub would only make sense if you fear the attenuation of the Notthingham will be too high.
I’ve only used Pub twice before. Both times it reminded me a lot of Nottingham: fast fermenter, dropped clear quickly, and strong attenuator, though not as strong as Notty. On the other hand it seemed less ‘neutral’ in flavor/aroma (ie., marmalade & apricot present with Pub). Thanks for “talking me down” from a dual yeast pitch. My original inclination to use Pub ‘solo’ appears to be the correct choice.
 
I brewed a best bitter last Monday using a half pack of Windsor and a half pack of Nottingham.

7.5 lbs Maris Otter (Crisp floor malted) [80.%]
1 lb Wheat malt [10.7%]
4 oz Crystal 77 (Crisp) [vorlauf] [2.7%]
1.5 oz Carafa Special 1 [vorlauf] [1.1%]
.5 lb Invert #2 [boil] [5.3%]

EKG at 60 min for 28 IBU
Styrian Celeia at 10 min for 4 IBU
27g whole cone Styrian Celeia dry hop in the fermenter after 4 days of fermentation

I mashed at 152F (no sparge in my Anvil Foundry). I need to adjust my efficiency numbers in Beersmith because I was aiming for 1.044 but ended up with 1.048 OG.

It took off like crazy and went from 1.048 to 1.018 in 2 days, which is 67%, so that was the Windsor doing its thing, from what I have read.

But it is still dropping a little more each day since then and is now a week later at 1.012. I want to bottle condition this beer so I want it to finish before bottling. What is your experience with bottling a Windsor/Notty mix? I will be bottling this weekend but could cold crash before then if that makes sense. The sample I took was still very cloudy. I'm hoping it flocculates more by the end of the week.

Since we are discussing yeast blends I thought I’d give an update on the bitter I brewed in February with Windsor and Notty. I ended up keg conditioning rather than bottling. I had a regular dip tube in and I kept hoping that the next pint would finally be a clear pint. It never happened. So, two weeks ago I cold crashed the keg (it had been at cellar temp), prepped a pack of gelatin and sanitized a floating dip tube, depressurized the keg, popped off the lid, poured in the gelatin, swapped out the dip tubes, sealed it back up and put it in my beer fridge. A week later it was crystal clear and is definitely one of the best bitters I have brewed. I’m going to rebrew the recipe with Wyeast 1469 to see what I prefer. I love the convenience of the dry yeast, but would like to find a solution that drops clear on its own without fining.
 
Since we are discussing yeast blends I thought I’d give an update on the bitter I brewed in February with Windsor and Notty. I ended up keg conditioning rather than bottling. I had a regular dip tube in and I kept hoping that the next pint would finally be a clear pint. It never happened. So, two weeks ago I cold crashed the keg (it had been at cellar temp), prepped a pack of gelatin and sanitized a floating dip tube, depressurized the keg, popped off the lid, poured in the gelatin, swapped out the dip tubes, sealed it back up and put it in my beer fridge. A week later it was crystal clear and is definitely one of the best bitters I have brewed. I’m going to rebrew the recipe with Wyeast 1469 to see what I prefer. I love the convenience of the dry yeast, but would like to find a solution that drops clear on its own without fining.
I've brewed a beer with 1/1 Windsor/notti, and it took four or five weeks in the bottle to clear but it was crystal clear after that. The character is ok, not the best I've had but pretty good for dry yeast only. I also might have a small oxidation issue here so probably not the best batch to judge the taste.
 
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@Brooothru I always experienced A09 and the original Fuller's as average attenuators in the 75% range. Sometimes they give rather sweet beers compared to some other yeasts like Wyeast 1469 and Nottingham.
Same for me but I mainly used it in combination with a hochkurz mash and usually also with 5-10% simple sugars.
 
Since we are discussing yeast blends I thought I’d give an update on the bitter I brewed in February with Windsor and Notty. I ended up keg conditioning rather than bottling. I had a regular dip tube in and I kept hoping that the next pint would finally be a clear pint. It never happened.
It's worth remembering that Windsor drops clear quite quickly - the problem is that it doesn't flocculate so any disturbance kicks up a cloud of yeast. So it's perfectly clear if you pour it carefully from a bottle, it's a question of finding ways to serve from a keg that doesn't disturb it (or serve it brite).

Also makes sure you're using a British level of calcium in your water rather than the strange ideas that certain USians have on the matter...
 
It's worth remembering that Windsor drops clear quite quickly - the problem is that it doesn't flocculate so any disturbance kicks up a cloud of yeast. So it's perfectly clear if you pour it carefully from a bottle, it's a question of finding ways to serve from a keg that doesn't disturb it (or serve it brite).

Also makes sure you're using a British level of calcium in your water rather than the strange ideas that certain USians have on the matter...

What calcium level would you target?

I do have very soft water, which is a great starting point for almost anything. Given my additions of gypsum and calcium chloride my calcium was around 50, so not super high, but not ridiculously low either. I usually aim for a more sulfate profile, but for this batch I was boosting the chloride and I liked that balance. I could easily keep the same ratio but boost both and in so doing bring up the calcium.
 
Yes, that’s exactly the rhyme I remembered. And it still doesn’t make sense.


"Morgenstern hat gold im Mund"
["The Morningstar has Gold in its Mouth"]

And while we're on the off-topic and I'm reminiscing my horrific butchering of the German language, I recall years ago being in a university chorus performing Beethoven's 9th Symphony (natürlich auf deutsch), and this couplet from the Third Movement (the "Ode to Joy") came to mind:

"Freude trinken alle Wesen
An den Brusten der Natur:
Alle Guten, alle Bosen,
Folgen ihrer Rosenspur."


In my perverse sense of humor I couldn't resist substituting the first word with "schadenfreude", given the recent news of the day. I'll leave it to others to translate, and to figure out the not so hidden relevance. Now I can't get the damn lyric out of my mind.

Chuck Berry as well as Beethoven are surely rolling over in their graves.
 
"Morgenstern hat gold im Mund"
["The Morningstar has Gold in its Mouth"]

And while we're on the off-topic and I'm reminiscing my horrific butchering of the German language, I recall years ago being in a university chorus performing Beethoven's 9th Symphony (natürlich auf deutsch), and this couplet from the Third Movement (the "Ode to Joy") came to mind:

"Freude trinken alle Wesen
An den Brusten der Natur:
Alle Guten, alle Bosen,
Folgen ihrer Rosenspur."


In my perverse sense of humor I couldn't resist substituting the first word with "schadenfreude", given the recent news of the day. I'll leave it to others to translate, and to figure out the not so hidden relevance. Now I can't get the damn lyric out of my mind.

Chuck Berry as well as Beethoven are surely rolling over in their graves.
MorgenSTUND' hat Gold im Mund.

MorningHOUR, Not star, but the meaning stays the same.
 
@Brooothru I always experienced A09 and the original Fuller's as average attenuators in the 75% range. Sometimes they give rather sweet beers compared to some other yeasts like Wyeast 1469 and Nottingham.
Agree. I'm almost thinking that I might want to cut down on the amount of Lyle's syrup I add at knock out. I'm looking for the 'marmalade' but want to avoid too much sweet. I do like the way Pub ferments with regards to speed and clarity, but I 'm also concerned with under-attenuation leading to residual sweetness.
 
Agree. I'm almost thinking that I might want to cut down on the amount of Lyle's syrup I add at knock out. I'm looking for the 'marmalade' but want to avoid too much sweet. I do like the way Pub ferments with regards to speed and clarity, but I 'm also concerned with under-attenuation leading to residual sweetness.
Lyle's attenuates fully, it's simple sugars. No residual sweetness from this one. Want more attenuation? Up the percentage of Lyle's in your brew!
 
Lyle's attenuates fully, it's simple sugars. No residual sweetness from this one. Want more attenuation? Up the percentage of Lyle's in your brew!
Excellent point, quite right.

Out of curiosity, what amount of Lyle's do you use? My untested recipe worked out to 1# of Lyle's for a 6.2 gal/23.5l batch volume into fermenter, which seemed quite a lot. I'm hoping my calculations and conversions between metric and Imperial are all correct, or at least "ball park."
 
Somewhere between 5-10% is usually nice.
My recipe shows it at 9.8% of the total fermentables, based in my equipment profile and observed efficiencies over close to 200 brew sessions over the years. A little on the high side, but should be OK, especially if it helps to dry out the fermentation.
 
My recipe shows it at 9.8% of the total fermentables, based in my equipment profile and observed efficiencies over close to 200 brew sessions over the years. A little on the high side, but should be OK, especially if it helps to dry out the fermentation.
It's really not on the high side - historically 10-15% sugar was fairly common in British beers, although the perception of pressure from CAMRA has pushed most newer recipes into dropping adjuncts.

For a fairly "traditional" (at least say 1980s or earlier) bitter my usual suggestion is to start with as much sugar - or a bit more - than crystal, and then tweak it to your taste from there. And bear in mind that even the Fuller's partigyle only uses 7.2% light crystal, most of the country uses less than that - and bitter is generally paler than foreigners think, and the ones that are brownish generally use caramel rather than speciality malts to get that colour.

By way of example, a pint of TT Boltmaker (in a slightly dirty glass at Taylor's own Woolly Sheep in Skipton)
1682443373529.png
 
"Morgenstern hat gold im Mund"
["The Morningstar has Gold in its Mouth"]

And while we're on the off-topic and I'm reminiscing my horrific butchering of the German language, I recall years ago being in a university chorus performing Beethoven's 9th Symphony (natürlich auf deutsch), and this couplet from the Third Movement (the "Ode to Joy") came to mind:

"Freude trinken alle Wesen
An den Brusten der Natur:
Alle Guten, alle Bosen,
Folgen ihrer Rosenspur."


In my perverse sense of humor I couldn't resist substituting the first word with "schadenfreude", given the recent news of the day. I'll leave it to others to translate, and to figure out the not so hidden relevance. Now I can't get the damn lyric out of my mind.

Chuck Berry as well as Beethoven are surely rolling over in their graves.
A genius and a deaf composer.🎸
 
It's really not on the high side - historically 10-15% sugar was fairly common in British beers, although the perception of pressure from CAMRA has pushed most newer recipes into dropping adjuncts.

For a fairly "traditional" (at least say 1980s or earlier) bitter my usual suggestion is to start with as much sugar - or a bit more - than crystal, and then tweak it to your taste from there. And bear in mind that even the Fuller's partigyle only uses 7.2% light crystal, most of the country uses less than that - and bitter is generally paler than foreigners think, and the ones that are brownish generally use caramel rather than speciality malts to get that colour.

By way of example, a pint of TT Boltmaker (in a slightly dirty glass at Taylor's own Woolly Sheep in Skipton)
View attachment 818497
Thank you. Just the kind of data I need to pull off a successful brew session. Couldn’t agree more with the CAMRA ‘suggestions’ regarding crystal malts. What’s unclear is if the trends and tastes of beer drinkers is driving that train, or whether CAMRA is dictating to beer drinkers what they will drink and like. Either way, that’s the overall arc of brewing, especially in the last 3~5 years.
 
Couldn’t agree more with the CAMRA ‘suggestions’ regarding crystal malts.
Just to be clear - by adjuncts I'm talking about unmalted stuff like sugar and maize, as opposed to speciality malts like crystal. In CAMRA's eyes the use of sugar was symbolic of the beers they fought against in the 1970s like Watney Red, so in their view the True Believers of "Real" (sic) Ale™ could only possibly brew all-grain. And over the course of the last 30-40 years they've persuaded many brewers to go all-grain, certainly sugar is a relatively rare ingredient in new recipes of <5%.

The fact that their view completely ignores centuries of British brewing history is neither here nor there.

Crystal is a lot more complicated, as it varies so much by region, at least in traditional bitter. It's probably most used in the Thames Valley so that's what the tourists experience, whereas there's far less up north - notably with the likes of Boddington using none at all.

But yeah, most of the cask beers showing off 21st century hops tend to be pale wherever you go.

CAMRA is dictating to beer drinkers what they will drink and like.
That's literally why CAMRA was founded! :) But CAMRA politics is a whole other thread...
 
I'm looking for the 'marmalade' but want to avoid too much sweet. I do like the way Pub ferments with regards to speed and clarity, but I 'm also concerned with under-attenuation leading to residual sweetness.
Then you might also want to try WLP007. Also, keep in mind I have rarely used sugars so far, so my experience with any yeast is more on the sweet side compared to those who use a nice invert regularly.

Regarding the dropping of sugar from many recipes since the 90s, I noticed that Cask Marque requires a Reinheitsgebot-like grain bill with malts only. So that's not helping either.
 
I noticed that Cask Marque requires a Reinheitsgebot-like grain bill with malts only. So that's not helping either.
Citation? I've never heard of that, and you might want to tell the various Taylor's pubs I've been in with CM accreditation...
TT's Landlord has sugar listed as an ingredient on their website.
I don't know if CAMRA has backed off a bit in their "sugar bad" stance.
Not really, but it's got to the point where it's no longer much of an issue.
 
Just to be clear - by adjuncts I'm talking about unmalted stuff like sugar and maize, as opposed to speciality malts like crystal. In CAMRA's eyes the use of sugar was symbolic of the beers they fought against in the 1970s like Watney Red, so in their view the True Believers of "Real" (sic) Ale™ could only possibly brew all-grain. And over the course of the last 30-40 years they've persuaded many brewers to go all-grain, certainly sugar is a relatively rare ingredient in new recipes of <5%.

The fact that their view completely ignores centuries of British brewing history is neither here nor there.

Crystal is a lot more complicated, as it varies so much by region, at least in traditional bitter. It's probably most used in the Thames Valley so that's what the tourists experience, whereas there's far less up north - notably with the likes of Boddington using none at all.

But yeah, most of the cask beers showing off 21st century hops tend to be pale wherever you go.


That's literally why CAMRA was founded! :) But CAMRA politics is a whole other thread...
Your post launched me down an all-day rabbit hole. I thought I knew a thing or two about brewing malts, but quickly learned there was a major gap when it comes to crystal/caramel malts. I had always believed (learned, heard) that they were the same thing. Not so! Actually there are major distinctions and differences.

It came at an opportune time for me as I’m prepping for a lot of English-style brewing. It’s a style I’ve enjoyed but never set out to brew or master myself. That was until @Miraculix and others like yourself started posting and contributing to threads about the style. Very interesting stuff.

Suffice to say that British crystal (kilned) and U.S. caramel (roasted) are quite different and result in fundamentally different beers. I’m glad I got the ‘education’ while I still have time to make adjustments prior to brewing.
 
I might have misunderstood them back when I watched their videos on cask ale, but the way they mention it in this video for example, I just took it for granted that this definition is their requirement for the Marque

If you mean what she says at 0:34 then no, she's just doing the primary school version of what goes into beer, suitable for a 2-minute YouTube video, it's nothing more than that.

In any case, Cask Marque don't really have that much influence, they're something that senior managers in pub chains love, as it says that they're Doing Something about cask quality but it's more of a tick-box thing that nobody in the real world pays that much attention to.
 
We now have a sugar tax on soft drinks in the UK, I wonder if it applies to beer as well.
No. For one the tax is based on sugar in what the consumer drinks - whereas in beer it's converted to alcohol.

And the clue is in the name - it's not a sugar tax, it's a Soft Drinks Industry Levy, the rules explicitly exclude any drinks of >1.2% alcohol. There's also a bunch of exceptions, like de-alcoholised beer or wine.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-your-drink-is-liable-for-the-soft-drinks-industry-levy
 
I did find a store (hophero.com) that seems legit and shows both Challenger and Admiral in stock. I've got some unopened First Gold already on hand. I think I'll plan to do 100% First Gold and see how it goes. One or both Challenger or Admiral (Probably Admiral) would be next. I'll continue to resist the urge to throw some bagged orange peel in it!
I'll be brewing tomorrow, fingers crossed.

Question - I already bought my grains, and milled them last night, so it's a bit late to think of this... regarding the "earthy" flavors I've been asking about, could my roughly 5% Simpsons DRC Double Roast Crystal potentially be causing it? I find it to be "fruity", in a raisin flavored sort of way. Sweet, also with perhaps toffee type flavors. I don't recall an earthiness to it but it's crossed my mind and I can't get it out of my head. I can simply eliminate it the next time around, and double up on the Medium instead, but wondered if anyone else has noticed unexpected flavors from DRC?
 
Yeah, well, since that post the website has definitely gone down. Dang.
Northwest Hop Farms. I was finally able to find Challenger, Northdown and First Gold. Half-pound is minimum order size, per ounce price is ‘reasonable’, but shipping is expensive. They offer seven different shipping options, so pick your poison. USPS was cheapest for me, though still pricey for 1.5# hops. Looks like I’ll be brewing a lot of bitters!
 
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