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Schlenkerla

Schlenkerla

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OK today I took a small sample of wort and dregs of one bottle and put on my hobo stir plate.

Here's what I did:

1) I started by pressure cooking my milk bottle, stir-bar and my stainless funnel. When done I removed the bottle and let it cool. Leaving the funnel in the pressure cooker and put the lid back on.

2) Then added 2-3 ounces of wort. It was running for a few minutes with just the 1.040 wort. It ran without any foam buildup.

3) I had about a teaspoon of dregs in the bottle. Using the funnel and tongs, I added an ounce of distilled water stirred it a bit, then, put the funnel on the milk bottle, and then I poured in the dregs into the stir plate milk bottle..

Within minutes the contents of the stir plate started to foam up. See photo.

I don't plan to use this since I'm not brewing until January and the bottle was open and unprotected for several days. If this is any indication that using the dregs will work, this is starting to look good.

20181220_022557.jpeg
 
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Miraculix

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Sohn is also a common surname, so it is conceivable that two men, one named Schneider and the other Sohn, could jointly open a brewery even though Mr. Schneider has only daughters :)
Cannot be that common in Germany. Never heard of somebody called Sohn and never met one, but it is of course a possibility.
 
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Thanks for this awesome tutorial and recipe, can't wait to try it! A few questions though:

1) I do the 10g igloo mash tun, would it make sense to just mash in my kettle on the heat source, dump into igloo cooler, vorlauf and batch sparge? If not, would it make sense to do a decoction? Though I guess that would be more work and a similar process as far as transferring from kettle to tun goes..

2) When you say to cover the fermentor for the first 8 hours, do you mean with cheese cloth or to just rest the lid on it?

2a) After the first 8 hours do I just completely uncover it or put the lid/airlock on? (I've never open fermented so I apologize if this is a dumb question)

3) I'm not going to crop any of the yeast. Should I still remove high krausen or can I just push it to the side?

4) What is your efficiency when brewing this recipe? 1.052 seems high from only 8lbs of grist but I'm not sure. The reason I'm asking is the 'Bee Cave Hefe' recipe on here has an 11lb grain bill with the same OG.

5) I'm assuming the link you posted for the priming calculator was already programmed with the recipe data, so I would need to reserve 1.27q of wort. Correct?

6) I've never used wort to prime either, after it carbs to 2 volumes what do you set the serving pressure to?

Sorry for the barrage of questions! Hope to hear back from you soon so I can get this thing going ASAP! (who cares if its out of season? I want a proper hefe on tap NOW! :D) Thanks again, cheers.
 

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Someone is confused. The 95 degree mash step does not produce ferulic acid. At that temperature there are only two enzymes working: phytase (which produces phytic acid, used as an old school way of lowering mash pH over a period of several hours) and glucanase (which breaks down gummy beta glucans).

The 122 degree mash step is the ferulic acid producing step. At that temperature is where peptidase, the enzyme responsible for producing ferulic acid, is active
 
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Schlenkerla

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Someone is confused. The 95 degree mash step does not produce ferulic acid. At that temperature there are only two enzymes working: phytase (which produces phytic acid, used as an old school way of lowering mash pH over a period of several hours) and glucanase (which breaks down gummy beta glucans).

The 122 degree mash step is the ferulic acid producing step. At that temperature is where peptidase, the enzyme responsible for producing ferulic acid, is active
I don't know, I have two books that say the same thing. One by Chris Colby by BYO and the other is by Jeff Alworth. Both say to mash in low. Both call it a ferulic acid rest.

Even the brewer from Schneider & Sohn calls it that.

They start at 95F and expect the mash tun temps to be risen to 104-113F for the ferulic rest. They go on to say the upper threshold is 122F for the ferulic rest and the creation of that phenolic character. They recommend about 10 minutes to not over do the phenol balance.

I haven't made it yet and I can't attest to how that works chemistry wise. I also need to decide how to Mash it. Being direct heat or a series of infusions. I'm thinking of direct heat. I need a brew kettle modification to make that work.
 
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I don't know, I have two books that say the same thing. One by Chris Colby by BYO and the other is by Jeff Alworth. Both say to mash in low. Both call it a ferulic acid rest.

Even the brewer from Schneider & Sohn calls it that.

They start at 95F and expect the mash tun temps to be risen to 104-113F for the ferulic rest. They go on to say the upper threshold is 122F for the ferulic rest and the creation of that phenolic character. They recommend about 10 minutes to not over do the phenol balance.

I haven't made it yet and I can't attest to how that's works chemistry wise. I also need to decide how to Mash it. Being direct heat or a series of infusions. I'm thinking of direct heat. I need a brew kettle modification to make that work.

95f IS known as the acid rest, but not for the creation of ferulic acid. That temp is mostly used to break down beta glucans. True ferulic acid production will not start until 104 and isn't being heavily produced until 113-115 with 122-128 being the high range of peptidase. Peptidase is a proteolytic enzyme (hence it being called protein rest #1 in this recipe) and will not even begin working at 95f. The information is out there. The problem is all these authors are just repeating what is being written in previous books and are mistaking the term 'Acid Rest' for the production of ferulic acid, when in fact only phytic acid is being produced at that temperature. If you dough in at 95f but intend to raise the temps to between 104-113, then they are using direct fire and should be calling it what it is: a beta glucan rest followed by a rise in temperature for a ferulic acid rest. I could link to a dozen scientific studies showing that peptidase is NOT active in the 95f range.
 
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Schlenkerla

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95f IS known as the acid rest, but not for the creation of ferulic acid. That temp is mostly used to break down beta glucans. True ferulic acid production will not start until 104 and isn't being heavily produced until 113-115 with 122-128 being the high range of peptidase. Peptidase is a proteolytic enzyme (hence it being called protein rest #1 in this recipe) and will not even begin working at 95f. The information is out there. The problem is all these authors are just repeating what is being written in previous books and are mistaking the term 'Acid Rest' for the production of ferulic acid, when in fact only phytic acid is being produced at that temperature. If you dough in at 95f but intend to raise the temps to between 104-113, then they are using direct fire and should be calling it what it is: a beta glucan rest followed by a rise in temperature for a ferulic acid rest. I could link to a dozen scientific studies showing that peptidase is NOT active in the 95f range.
I believe you. I'm guessing most authors are taking notes from pros who are not chemist, just brewers or they get the notes wrong.

I'm thinking follow the method they use to make a clone. Hell with the names of the steps. You'd think you'd want them named properly.

The thing that is most confusing is the means to hit temps via infusion and starting at what ratio quart per pound.

Where do you start? 1/2 quart per pound?

I haven't done a lot of step mashing intentionally. Typically I do it when I lose too much heat and need to kick up the temp in the cooler.

I haven't found a good multi step mash calculator online yet. I have the formulas in a brewing app. Could make a spreadsheet.

This thought is what is pushing me direct heat mashing in a kettle.
 
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Schlenkerla

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Thanks for all the sharing...

Like both of those articles. Especially the step mash one.

Jeff Alworth's comments are like that of the book I cited on post#1. Mentioning Hans-Peter Drexler and what not....
 

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This guy calls an acid rest 95-113F....

Yes, read his description of what an acid rest details. Phytic acid, NOT ferulic acid. The traditional acid rest was used as a means of adjusting mash pH over a period of several hours, not for the production of ferulic acid.
 

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Thanks for all the sharing...

Like both of those articles. Especially the step mash one.

Jeff Alworth's comments are like that of the book I cited on post#1. Mentioning Hans-Peter Drexler and what not....

Then Jeff Alworth is contradicting himself in the original recipe in post #1 by saying that a rest a 95f has anything to do with ferulic acid production.
 

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This guy calls an acid rest 95-113F....

He goes on to state that in the proteolytic enzyme explanations that peptidase is the key enzyme responsible for ferulic acid production and if you want to maximize the production of phenols in Hefeweizen, you should be doing a peptidase rest at 115 when the enzyme peptidase is most active.
 
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Schlenkerla

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He goes on to state that in the proteolytic enzyme explanations that peptidase is the key enzyme responsible for ferulic acid production and if you want to maximize the production of phenols in Hefeweizen, you should be doing a peptidase rest at 115 when the enzyme peptidase is most active.
How do you do step mashes?

Direct heat
Infusion with boiling water and specific volume
Infusion with specific volume and temp.
Decoction
 

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How do you do step mashes?

Direct heat
Infusion with boiling water and specific volume
Infusion with specific volume and temp.
Decoction

Boiling water infusions. I only have a 10 gallon cooler with false bottom for mashing and have a 5 gallon kettle that I use for boiling water infusions and sparking and a 16 gallon kettle for boiling. I rarely ever do a single infusion mash anymore, almost always step mash. I do a beta glucan rest on nearly every single beer I make as well. I occasionally so decoction mashes as well if the style calls for it. For a hefeweizen, I usually go 95, 115, 134, and 152 and the a mash out infusion of 170 to turn off the enzymes before recirculating and draining the tun. With that many steps using boiling water infusions, you really want to turn off the enzymes so you can more easily rinse the sugars off since you aren't going to have a lot of sparging to do, if at all, before going over your intended pre-boil volume. Step mashing tends to make for an extremely efficient mash as well. I'it's not uncommon to have full mash extraction. Since beginning step mashing, I'm often in the low to mid 90's for overall brew house efficiency.
 
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Schlenkerla

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Boiling water infusions. I only have a 10 gallon cooler with false bottom for mashing and have a 5 gallon kettle that I use for boiling water infusions and sparking and a 16 gallon kettle for boiling. I rarely ever do a single infusion mash anymore, almost always step mash. I do a beta glucan rest on nearly every single beer I make as well. I occasionally so decoction mashes as well if the style calls for it. For a hefeweizen, I usually go 95, 115, 134, and 152 and the a mash out infusion of 170 to turn off the enzymes before recirculating and draining the tun. With that many steps using boiling water infusions, you really want to turn off the enzymes so you can more easily rinse the sugars off since you aren't going to have a lot of sparging to do, if at all, before going over your intended pre-boil volume. Step mashing tends to make for an extremely efficient mash as well. I'it's not uncommon to have full mash extraction. Since beginning step mashing, I'm often in the low to mid 90's for overall brew house efficiency.
What's your starting ratio of water to grain at 95F?

Do you use a step calculator to figure out the volumes? If so what do you use?

I use an Android app. Brewzor calculator. It has the strike and mash infusion and decoction volumes and bunch of other stuff.

Screenshot_2019-01-17-12-40-43.jpeg
 
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Schlenkerla

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Then Jeff Alworth is contradicting himself in the original recipe in post #1 by saying that a rest a 95f has anything to do with ferulic acid production.
He cites this on the mash schedule then says in the recipe detail that it needs to be 104 - 122F. With a stop at 113F.

Remember this is what Schneider & Sohn or Hans Peter-Drexler is suggesting.

20190117_130626.jpeg
20190117_131226.jpeg
 
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Schlenkerla

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Thanks for this awesome tutorial and recipe, can't wait to try it! A few questions though:

1) I do the 10g igloo mash tun, would it make sense to just mash in my kettle on the heat source, dump into igloo cooler, vorlauf and batch sparge? If not, would it make sense to do a decoction? Though I guess that would be more work and a similar process as far as transferring from kettle to tun goes..

2) When you say to cover the fermenter for the first 8 hours, do you mean with cheese cloth or to just rest the lid on it?

2a) After the first 8 hours do I just completely uncover it or put the lid/airlock on? (I've never open fermented so I apologize if this is a dumb question)

3) I'm not going to crop any of the yeast. Should I still remove high krausen or can I just push it to the side?

4) What is your efficiency when brewing this recipe? 1.052 seems high from only 8lbs of grist but I'm not sure. The reason I'm asking is the 'Bee Cave Hefe' recipe on here has an 11lb grain bill with the same OG.

5) I'm assuming the link you posted for the priming calculator was already programmed with the recipe data, so I would need to reserve 1.27q of wort. Correct?

6) I've never used wort to prime either, after it carbs to 2 volumes what do you set the serving pressure to?

Sorry for the barrage of questions! Hope to hear back from you soon so I can get this thing going ASAP! (who cares if its out of season? I want a proper hefe on tap NOW! :D) Thanks again, cheers.

Sorry to have a late response. Here's my thoughts.

1) I'm on the fence on this. I don't have a kettle mash tun so, I'm thinking of doing all infusions. I don't want to dump the contents of my mash tun.

2 & 2A) I would start with the lid on after pitching.~8 hours I would fully uncover my fermenter (totally open - no cover) and recover it when the foam starts to subside. Maybe two days later.

3) No, I'm not going to top crop unless there's something that should NOT be in the fermenter.

4) I have never made it before. Its from a home brew book that I own. My guess with the step mashing the efficiency will be good.

5) The calculator is not present to my knowledge. Its really dependent on your OG and your desired level of carbonation.

6) The serving pressure is your call it all depends on the system balance of your keg system. Temperature, serving hose size, and line length. I like my kegerator's regulator set just high enough that my perlicks snap closed. My system is at 8-13 psi. Temp is at 40F
 
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Schlenkerla

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She's in the in the fermenter. Temp was at 65F all night. Just starting to show bubble action in the air lock. So up comes the temp to 70F.

I'm coming home for lunch, if she's cranking away off comes the top.

The wort looked funny last night I had a lot of what I think was protein hot break in the form of flakes, kinda like coconut. Wish I took a picture.
 
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Schlenkerla

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It's not high krausen, but it starting to bubble enough to make me think the yeast is the only one who's bellied up to the table for dinner!

Off it is... Open fermentation.

Create some esters for me!!!!

IMG_20190409_114436.jpeg
 
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Schlenkerla

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Look how this changed in less than 20 minutes. Not sure if opening it makes the difference. It doesn't have the back pressure of the air lock now.

The first pic is right as I cracked it open. The others ~20 minutes later.
IMG_20190409_114436.jpeg
IMG_20190409_122721.jpeg
IMG_20190409_122639.jpeg
 

lump42

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Planning on following this mash/fermentation regime. Do you think it would be enough to remove the bell on the airlock and a cotton ball over top? I regularly find drain flies and fruit flies in my airlocks. The door between the crawlspace and basement doesn't seal well, it's on the list.
 
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Schlenkerla

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Planning on following this mash/fermentation regime. Do you think it would be enough to remove the bell on the airlock and a cotton ball over top? I regularly find drain flies and fruit flies in my airlocks. The door between the crawlspace and basement doesn't seal well, it's on the list.
That I don't know. This is my first open fermentation. I'm wondering how people have delt with insects in the past. Maybe it's not an issue.

The book I read for this recipe says you need the lid ajar or off. I decided to go with completely off for the maximum ester formation.
 
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Planning on following this mash/fermentation regime. Do you think it would be enough to remove the bell on the airlock and a cotton ball over top? I regularly find drain flies and fruit flies in my airlocks. The door between the crawlspace and basement doesn't seal well, it's on the list.
BTW - i added the 113F rest.
 

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Interesting! Not sure I would feel good brewing open in the summer months, but I may give this a go next winter. Still wanting to master the Hefe!!
 

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That I don't know. This is my first open fermentation. I'm wondering how people have delt with insects in the past. Maybe it's not an issue.

The book I read for this recipe says you need the lid ajar or off. I decided to go with completely off for the maximum ester formation.
I'll plan on going that route then. An open airlock would be similar to being ajar.
 
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Schlenkerla

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I'll plan on going that route then. An open airlock would be similar to being ajar.
Yeah, there would be no back pressure.

That said, with this experience I think open fermentation is only risky if you open too early and leave it open too long.

Open when your airlock activity starts showing signs of life, roughly 8-12 hours after pitching. Then cover or rack after the krausen drops. I like the spund method as it will vent at my preset pressure. I show that later with pictures.

Reading what I posted yesterday and what i observed the last few days tells me that being completely open is very low risk. The krausen is very dense formation. Anything that would fall into it could be fished out with a spoon and it does act as a protective barrier. I plan to rack/drain to a keg today. That dense layer will drop as the fluid level drops. If there's anything on it will stay there as I won't all make it to the keg.
 
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Miraculix

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Ich think this is not about pressure. The additional pressure caused by an air lock equals the height of water inside it, in other words, nearly no additional pressure.

I guess it is about the quick exit that co2 can take due to lower co2 concentration in the surrounding air caused by good exchange of air, or about additional oxygen intake or both.

Any way, an open air lock or a nearly closed lid wouldn't do it in this scenario as the air would be still kind of trapped within the fermenter.
 
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