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Weissbier Schneider & Sohn Original German Hefe Weizen Ale

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Schlenkerla

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Recipe Type
All Grain
Yeast
Safale WB-06, or Danstar Munich, or Wyeast 3638, or WLP 351
Yeast Starter
None - Re-hydrate & Pitch
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter
None
Batch Size (Gallons)
5 gal
Original Gravity
1.052
Final Gravity
1.011
Boiling Time (Minutes)
60
IBU
16.0
Color
3
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
5 days @ 68F
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
21 days keggged or bottled @ 68F
Additional Fermentation
Carbonate using Speise (some of your unfermented wort)
Tasting Notes
Tastes Like Schneider & Sohns German Hefe Weizen Ale
Hans-Peter Drexler's Recipe for Authentic Weissbier - Masterbrewer for Scheider & Sohn.

Lifted from Secrets of Master Brewers. By Jeff Alworth

The Book - Google Search

Grain Bill

5.33 lbs of German or French Wheat Malt
3.5 lbs of German Pilsner Malt

Step Mash

Mash in at:
95F for 10 minutes to release ferulic acid - Ferulic Acid Rest
122F for 10 minutes - Protein Rest #1
131F for 15 minutes - Protein Rest #2
144F for 10 minutes - Amylase Rest #1
155F for 20 minutes - Amylase Rest #2
161F for 20 minutes
172F - Mash Out

Boil
60 minutes 1oz of Hallertauer - 16 IBU
- or -
60 minutes of 0.25 oz of Herkules - 13 IBU
45 minutes of 0.25 oz of Hallertauer Tradition - 3 IBU

Fermentation & Conditioning
Pitch at 63F let rise to 73F with temp control
Otherwise pitch at 68F try to control room temp
- Ayinger pitches at 68F
- Schneider ferments only 5 days and bottles

The impact of fermentation temperature at lower temps favors clove phenolic whereas higher temps favors banana. This is also dependent on yeast strains. Recipe in the book calls for liquid yeast products. I added the dry for those who prefer dry yeast.

Important Notes
  1. Do the low temp step mashes for the required phenolic flavor profile. Ferulic acid is released from the grain and converted to vinyl-4 guaiacol. This compound creates the distinct phenolic note or "Clove".
  2. Do an open ferment. Start covered for 8 hours, check for activity or a frothy krausen. If present slide the top over slightly for ventilation or off completely. This will allow the C02 to spill out of the fermenter and allow more esters & phenols to form. CO2 inhibits the esters & phenols. Phenol is Clove-like, Ester is Banana-ish.
  3. Do remove the high krausen. Scoop it off with large sanitized spoon.
  4. Do carbonate using speise. This is using gyle or is commonly known as krausening. You need to extract a portion of the wort, and save it for kegging or bottling. The volume collected is important for the proper volume of CO2. Collect the wort prior to chilling. Refrigerate, then boil and cool prior to pitching. Filling mason jars and pressure cooking can save a few steps at pitching time and ensure proper sanitation. Just warm up, open and use. Then wait for ~21 days to carbonate.
  5. Priming Calculator https://www.brewersfriend.com/gyle-and-krausen-priming-calculator/
 
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Schlenkerla

Schlenkerla

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Got a picture of the home brew? I can never make a hefe with the right color.
Not yet, I was telling @Jayjay1976 about this. Since he likes a good hefe. Namely about the need to open ferment. Told him I'd post the secrets from the book. I read the weissbier chapter and reviewed the recipe in that book posted above.

I plan to brew this after Christmas and will post pictures.

My guess the mash method could impact the color. You could do several step infusions in a cooler or do a kettle mash and then dump it in a cooler to mash out. The direct heat from the kettle mashing would darken the color some. Thinking of a thick mash with high localized heat on the kettle.
 
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Schlenkerla

Schlenkerla

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Hey @Schlenkerla awesome thread! I'm definitely going to try the open fermentation since I have some time off over the holidays to crop the yeast and keep an eye on it. Do you really think it will be ready to bottle in 5 days?
I don't know, it might be if the temp is right for the yeast used, and the cell count was high enough. If it's still has a krausen going, then I'd say no...

Me personally, I don't think I'd rack until I was sure it was done. You could easily drop a sanitized hydrometer into the fermenter to check on the gravity. If it's too high, above 1.011, leave it in there until it drops to that point. I'm more comfortable with a week or more.

I ferment with S-33, WB-06 and, S-04 frequently. It seems that they are done in three days. In 12 hrs WB-06 is cranking a bubble a second. By the 3rd day the air lock is stalled to once a every few minutes if not longer. I'm never in a hurry to move them.

I keg so, I don't have a bottle bomb fear. I would hate to have a bunch of sediment in my beer though. Since the recommendation is to carb with speise, and that I have ball valve two inches above the bottom of my SS fermenters, I'm going to consider it between 5 and 7 days. If the high krausen subsides on day five, and I'm NOT ready to keg I'm going to cover the fermenter and fit an air lock.

So to me, it's a game time decision on day five.

No krausen, FG is 1.011, the speise is coming out of the fridge warm up and keg.
 
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Schlenkerla

Schlenkerla

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@Jayjay1976

I bought the book this recipe came out of from Barnes & Noble in Oakbrook Mall just after Christmas to use a gift card. (You could save on the Amazon shipping charges, unless your a prime member.) If you're shopping there you could find it in the brewing section. There's all kinds of tips that most experienced brewers have heard of before but have yet to have tried out in a beer. He shares some great info.

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Schlenkerla

Schlenkerla

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This is the earlier beer and a shot of the back of the bottle.

Note open fermentation stated on the bottle.

I hadn't noticed this until I opened the wheat-doppelbock.
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Schlenkerla

Schlenkerla

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Let's look at the Wheat-Doppelbock Ale.

The word ale caught me since a doppelbock is typically a lager. I did a doppel take on this.

Note the very last picture. It's very clear as to "Ale" on the label.

Learning something new everyday.

It's got the wheat hefe ester with the chocolatey-raisen taste. At 8.2% abv
[emoji481]
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Schlenkerla

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Now Eisbock....

The taste is the same but a bit more prominent on the raisin. Obviously since this is a Ice Bock, it's still an ale.

Sounds like a mistake, they racked off a frozen wheat-bock to create Eisbock!

12% .... Can't complain $3.99 each at Friar Tucks
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thehaze

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None of the dry yeast will get you Schneider. Not even Weihenstephaner ( liquid or dry ) will get you close. There is more involved in the yeast profile than just clove and banana. I've tried, friends of mine tried, also with combinations of yeast and never matched the profile. We did not even match the malt profile.

I'm sad, but I can drink it every time I want, so that's good, I guess...
 

Miraculix

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None of the dry yeast will get you Schneider. Not even Weihenstephaner ( liquid or dry ) will get you close. There is more involved in the yeast profile than just clove and banana. I've tried, friends of mine tried, also with combinations of yeast and never matched the profile. We did not even match the malt profile.

I'm sad, but I can drink it every time I want, so that's good, I guess...
Did you try to culture the bottle dregs of number 7?
 

thehaze

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Do dregs contain the main yeast they are using, unaltered? Is this being checked? We would have heard something from some one, if the dregs would have contained the yeast. Maybe we have not researched this well enough?
 

Miraculix

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Do dregs contain the main yeast they are using, unaltered? Is this being checked? We would have heard something from some one, if the dregs would have contained the yeast. Maybe we have not researched this well enough?
This is why I asked if you tried it, because nobody knows and there seems to be only one way to find out.
 

ESBrewer

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Yes the dregs should contain the same yeast that has been used in primary fermentation. People have used the dregs succesfully and I have grown it, too, but haven't brewed a batch yet. At least yeast from TAP5 grows very well both on agar and in liquid media.

They use ferulic acid rest & decoction mashing in production and they package the beer soon after the primary fermentation stops (until 2000 they didn't even have conditioning tanks). TAP2 is conditioned in tanks to drop the yeast. TAP7 untypically takes a little bit of chocolate malt in addition to pale wheat and barley. This is for color and gives just a little bit of extra character. The darker brews are more complex in terms of grains.
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Shenanigans

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Just FYI, I live in Germany and it's common practice here for the home brew community here to harvest the yeast from Tap 7.
Lots of people have brewed with it and confirmed it's the real deal. I'd go as far as to say that Schneider and Gutmann Hefeweizen are the two most harvested yeasts here in Germany. Most of the other bigger breweries seem to be duds (Erdinger/Paulaner/Fransiskaner). Not sure about Weihenstephaner.
There's usually a pile of yeast in a bottle of Schneider, I harvested some myself no problem from 4 bottles a few weeks ago. Had a lot of activity after only one day.
Think I will use it for a Tap 5 Hopfenweisse clone.
 
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Schlenkerla

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Somebody enlighten me on the Tap 5 and Tap 7 references please. EDIT: Never mind, Duh I just saw it on the bottle!

BTW - Glad to have several of you jump in here!
 
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Miraculix

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Somebody enlighten me on the Tap 5 and Tap 7 references please. EDIT: Never mind, Duh I just saw it on the bottle!

BTW - Glad to have several of you jump in here!
Schneider is refering to a lot of their beers by Tap+Number. You can see it on the label. Tap 7 for example, is their "normal" Hefeweizen.
 
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Schlenkerla

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None of the dry yeast will get you Schneider. Not even Weihenstephaner ( liquid or dry ) will get you close. There is more involved in the yeast profile than just clove and banana. I've tried, friends of mine tried, also with combinations of yeast and never matched the profile. We did not even match the malt profile.

I'm sad, but I can drink it every time I want, so that's good, I guess...
Have you done the the low temp rests, the open ferment, and used speise?

While I get the fact it may not be exact. That's what Peter-Hans Drexler has recommended. Exact is a funny word when it comes to taste and beer.
 
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Schlenkerla

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I just looked at last night's or this morning's bottles. There's dregs to collect!!!!
 
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Smellyglove

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Just FYI, I live in Germany and it's common practice here for the home brew community here to harvest the yeast from Tap 7.
Lots of people have brewed with it and confirmed it's the real deal. I'd go as far as to say that Schneider and Gutmann Hefeweizen are the two most harvested yeasts here in Germany. Most of the other bigger breweries seem to be duds (Erdinger/Paulaner/Fransiskaner). Not sure about Weihenstephaner.
There's usually a pile of yeast in a bottle of Schneider, I harvested some myself no problem from 4 bottles a few weeks ago. Had a lot of activity after only one day.
Think I will use it for a Tap 5 Hopfenweisse clone.
So in other words you're saying that the dregs in TAP7 is the fermentation yeast? You can harvest the fermentation yeast from the dregs? No krâusening with other wort (with different yeast) etc?
 
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Schlenkerla

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So in other words you're saying that the dregs in TAP7 is the fermentation yeast? You can harvest the fermentation yeast from the dregs? No krâusening with other wort (with different yeast) etc?
I'd say it's worth a try.

Worse case is I have 5 gallons of a good German Hefe Weizen that's a redheaded stepchild of Herr Schneider or Herr Sohn.
 
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Schlenkerla

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I already made 10 starters, four of which are in the instant pot to sterilize.

@Jayjay1976 - Now you have another reason to buy an Instant Pot Ultra. [emoji1]


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Schlenkerla

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Well I asked for the ultra for Christmas, let's see what Santa brings me! :D

Edit: How long do you process the jars?
Well, some HBT members say that the instant pot doesn't get hot enough to kill botulism. 230F vs 250F. The required heat threshold is 250 I'm told.

I accidentally set it for 5 hours when I wanted it 5 minutes.

I'm going to re-cook my starters in my presto pressure cooker on high with the fvcker blowing steam and with the dancing weight diddyboopin' about. Maybe 20 minutes.

I was thinking that hitting 15 psi at over 212F would kill anything.
 
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Jayjay1976

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I've been looking at the 23qt presto canner, I'll probably pull the trigger after the holidays.
 

lump42

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Well, some HBT members say that the instant pot doesn't get hot enough to kill botulism. 230F vs 250F. The required heat threshold is 250 I'm told.

I accidentally set it for 5 hours when I wanted it 5 minutes.

I'm going to re-cook my starters in my presto pressure cooker on high with the fvcker blowing steam and with the dancing weight diddyboopin' about. Maybe 20 minutes.

I was thinking that hitting 15 psi at over 212F would kill anything.
I believe the issue is that the instant pot/ electric pressure cookers don't get to high enough pressure and they monitor only pressure, so people in higher elevations won't hit the required temps. My office teaches home canning classes and the instructor, said they only get to 11 psi. The pressure and temps together are required to kill botulinum spores. I'm sure many here will say they've done it and been fine. However, with any risk, you're fine until you're not. If you adjusted the starter wort pH lower than 4.6 than it would be safe, but otherwise it would be safer to use a traditional pressure canner. Additional benefit of an actual pressure canner is that they can usually hold more jars, so less canning runs would need to be made.
 

Jayjay1976

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I believe the issue is that the instant pot/ electric pressure cookers don't get to high enough pressure and they monitor only pressure, so people in higher elevations won't hit the required temps. My office teaches home canning classes and the instructor, said they only get to 11 psi. The pressure and temps together are required to kill botulinum spores. I'm sure many here will say they've done it and been fine. However, with any risk, you're fine until you're not. If you adjusted the starter wort pH lower than 4.6 than it would be safe, but otherwise it would be safer to use a traditional pressure canner. Additional benefit of an actual pressure canner is that they can usually hold more jars, so less canning runs would need to be made.
I'd be tempted to adjust the wort pH down to an appropriate level for water bath canning, then when ready to use correct it back up to ~5.2 with sodium bicarbonate. Would that work?
 

lump42

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I'd be tempted to adjust the wort pH down to an appropriate level for water bath canning, then when ready to use correct it back up to ~5.2 with sodium bicarbonate. Would that work?
I believe so. There are alot of water bath jam/jelly recipes that include lemon juice or citric acid to drop the pH. From my understanding from talking with our instructor, what is being canned is less important than the pH and the size of the pieces being canned. The acidic food, water bath canning won't kill the botulinum, but the acidic environment prevents the botulinum bacteria from growing. For ease of adjusting, I would use soft or distilled water for the starter so you aren't contending with buffering capacity of hard water.
 

Jayjay1976

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I believe so. There are alot of water bath jam/jelly recipes that include lemon juice or citric acid to drop the pH. From my understanding from talking with our instructor, what is being canned is less important than the pH and the size of the pieces being canned. The acidic food, water bath canning won't kill the botulinum, but the acidic environment prevents the botulinum bacteria from growing. For ease of adjusting, I would use soft or distilled water for the starter so you aren't contending with buffering capacity of hard water.
I would be using RO water and extra light DME, or maybe I'll just mash some pilsner malt. Also thinking of doubling the OG and diluting with bottled water when I make a starter, so I can vary the gravity as appropriate in order to step it up.

On a side note, I've always heard that underpitching will boost the yeast character in a Hefeweizen but IME has produced off flavors. Next batch I'm going to pitch a healthy starter and ferment open.
 

Jayjay1976

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Mate, Sohn is not a name, it means son.

Schneider and son.
Sohn is also a common surname, so it is conceivable that two men, one named Schneider and the other Sohn, could jointly open a brewery even though Mr. Schneider has only daughters :)
 
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