New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[brew703]

All hops were from 2016 and were vac sealed and stored in the freezer. I always smell my hops before using and I didn't notice any off flavors. I know that's not a tell tail completely but basically none smelled like cat piss.

And as mentioned the NEIPA I had at the brewery had a similar taste and aroma and we both used Citra so that leads me to think maybe that's where the oniony flavor is coming from.

Kinda frustrating as it's very noticeable- almost to the point where I don't want to drink it. I'm hoping the flavor starts to mellow some in the next week or so.

 

[brew703]

The only hop that has an onion aroma/taste to me is Summit. I have totally stoped using it for that reason.

Yep- used it once and had to dump the batch. Luckily it was only 2 gallons so no big loss.

 

[ryanm8]

I have not detected any onion flavors any time I've used Citra.

 

[sjfischr]

All hops were from 2016 and were vac sealed and stored in the freezer. I always smell my hops before using and I didn't notice any off flavors. I know that's not a tell tail completely but basically none smelled like cat piss.

Let’s also consider that it may have nothing to do with the hops at all. Could water treatment have introduced too much sulfuric flavors in the brewing water? Did you do anything different there?

The only other thing I can think of with the hops is perhaps if they were in the freezer that they took on an off flavor, but somehow went undetected due to the low temperature?

 

[kyleetrotter]

I think it was Shaun Hill that said Citra has been really hit or miss lately. Breweries w good contracts get to go to the hop farms and pick the crop they want and homebrewers are seemingly left with what the breweries don't want. At least that was my takeaway from his comment.

I had the single hop "El Dorado Single Hop IPA" from Other Half when it was first released and I got a green onion/green pepper flavor from it and absolutely loved it. I've been waiting to get that flavor from an IPA again and I haven't. Maybe I'll have to bitter with some Summit on my next NEIPA.

 

[brew703]

Let’s also consider that it may have nothing to do with the hops at all. Could water treatment have introduced too much sulfuric flavors in the brewing water? Did you do anything different there?

The only other thing I can think of with the hops is perhaps if they were in the freezer that they took on an off flavor, but somehow went undetected due to the low temperature?

I use RO water and treated as Braufessor states in his recipe. At this point, anything is possible. Could low or high PH be the cause? Mash PH was 5.3. Didn't check it again. I usually aim for a mash ph of 5.3-5.35 so I was in line with my other brews.
it's just off that the NEIPA I had at the brewery had the same oniony taste. That's the only reason why I suggested it could be from the Citra since we both used it.

 

[Braufessor]

I think you can get "onion/garlic" from a variety of hops depending on their quality. Summit definitely ends up being the poster child for onion and garlic - but if you get good summit, that is not what it tastes like. I just brewed a couple amber ales that I used summit in -it can be a nice hop.

I think if you get some mediocre citra/mosaic - i could see you getting some of that. I have tasted it in commercial beers that used those types of hops - so it can definitely happen.

I think it is unlikely it is your water or pH..... especially if you followed the suggestions and it sounds like you also measured your pH.... all of that should be right in the correct range.

Maybe it will mellow out a bit as it ages. (How long did everything sit in fermenter...... dry hop on day 2-3 and let it sit till day 10-12 range??) (Keep the temp in the 66-72 range the entire time??)

If it got to the point that you were not going to drink it, you might try hooking a liquid disconnect to your CO2 and gently (1-3 psi) bubbling some CO2 up through the bottom of the keg via the dip tube and see if you could scrub some of that aroma flavor out with CO2. Probably a last resort kind of thing and it could make some mess with foaming out of the pressure release, so do it in a tub.

A couple years ago, I had some horrible problems with several czech pilsners I brewed..... I drove myself crazy trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. In the end, I narrowed it down to what must have been some bad Saaz hops. Ruined 5-6 batches before I just threw out 2 pounds of Saaz I was using.

**Also, often, I think bad or mediocre hops can smell ok in the bag. I notice them once they are added to the boil (too late)..... and they smell really vegetal. I say this, because I just brewed a pilsner where I added some Spalt that "smelled good" even though they were old (vacuum sealed), but when they hit the boil, it smelled like wet grass. I am currently crossing my fingers that I didn't just ruin my latest pilsner using them

 

[pshankstar]

What do you all do with the first dry hops? Do you keep them in the fermenter till packaging or do you remove them when you toss in the second dry hops? This is assuming you bag the dry hops and not toss them on freely.

Thanks in advance everyone!

 

[brew703]

I think you can get "onion/garlic" from a variety of hops depending on their quality. Summit definitely ends up being the poster child for onion and garlic - but if you get good summit, that is not what it tastes like. I just brewed a couple amber ales that I used summit in -it can be a nice hop.

I think if you get some mediocre citra/mosaic - i could see you getting some of that. I have tasted it in commercial beers that used those types of hops - so it can definitely happen.

I think it is unlikely it is your water or pH..... especially if you followed the suggestions and it sounds like you also measured your pH.... all of that should be right in the correct range.

Maybe it will mellow out a bit as it ages. (How long did everything sit in fermenter...... dry hop on day 2-3 and let it sit till day 10-12 range??) (Keep the temp in the 66-72 range the entire time??)

If it got to the point that you were not going to drink it, you might try hooking a liquid disconnect to your CO2 and gently (1-3 psi) bubbling some CO2 up through the bottom of the keg via the dip tube and see if you could scrub some of that aroma flavor out with CO2. Probably a last resort kind of thing and it could make some mess with foaming out of the pressure release, so do it in a tub.

A couple years ago, I had some horrible problems with several czech pilsners I brewed..... I drove myself crazy trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. In the end, I narrowed it down to what must have been some bad Saaz hops. Ruined 5-6 batches before I just threw out 2 pounds of Saaz I was using.

**Also, often, I think bad or mediocre hops can smell ok in the bag. I notice them once they are added to the boil (too late)..... and they smell really vegetal. I say this, because I just brewed a pilsner where I added some Spalt that "smelled good" even though they were old (vacuum sealed), but when they hit the boil, it smelled like wet grass. I am currently crossing my fingers that I didn't just ruin my latest pilsner using them

Thanks for the reply Braufessor and to the others.

I added all DH additions at day three of fermentation. These hops sat for 7 days, then cold crashed for two days before racking to keg and hitting with co2.
As for temp range, stayed mainly around 65 for most. the last two days I increased temps to 68 where it finished before cold crashing.

As for the hops, most of my stock is from 2016. All have been vac sealed and stored in the freezer. The citra hops were from 2015. I used them in the past with no noticeable issues but it's been 6-12 months since I used any Citra. I suppose those hops could have went bad during that time frame.
I only have a few ounces of citra left from this batch so I'll play it safe and ditch what I have left. I do have a half pound from 2017 I recently received.
The mosaic is from 2016 as is the Galaxy.

I may take your advice and hook up the co2 to the liquid post and see if that helps. I'll let it ride until the weekend and try it then.

It's just odd that the brewery I visited had the same taste. I didn't mention it to the owner at the time but my wife took one sip and made the oniony comment. Then the next week I brewed this batch and low and behold same issue.

I may email the brewery and see what they say. Maybe they will respond with some insight.

 

[Braufessor]

Thanks for the reply Braufessor and to the others.

I added all DH additions at day three of fermentation. These hops sat for 7 days, then cold crashed for two days before racking to keg and hitting with co2.
As for temp range, stayed mainly around 65 for most. the last two days I increased temps to 68 where it finished before cold crashing.

As for the hops, most of my stock is from 2016. All have been vac sealed and stored in the freezer. The citra hops were from 2015. I used them in the past with no noticeable issues but it's been 6-12 months since I used any Citra. I suppose those hops could have went bad during that time frame.
I only have a few ounces of citra left from this batch so I'll play it safe and ditch what I have left. I do have a half pound from 2017 I recently received.
The mosaic is from 2016 as is the Galaxy.

I may take your advice and hook up the co2 to the liquid post and see if that helps. I'll let it ride until the weekend and try it then.

It's just odd that the brewery I visited had the same taste. I didn't mention it to the owner at the time but my wife took one sip and made the oniony comment. Then the next week I brewed this batch and low and behold same issue.

I may email the brewery and see what they say. Maybe they will respond with some insight.

Another possibility is just your perception..... some people just perceive a hop one way and others perceive it differently. Or, I have had instances where I was under the weather for a time and beer I would normally like just did not taste right/good to me for a while - even after I felt better.

Seems that process-wise, everything you did is pretty much on point. Personally, I like to go a little longer and I don't cold crash..... Sometimes I just feel a little more time and keeping temps up allows the yeast to clean everything up better. However, what you did is pretty much perfectly normal for lots of people. So, I would hesitate to say any of that would be a problem.

Most likely scenario is that the hops simply were not at their best. I brew this beer and similar so often that I blow through hops pretty fast. I will go through a pound of citra per month almost, and, I keep all my hops in vacuum packed glass jars in the freezer - but even doing that, I have to throw hops out from time to time because they have sat there too long. I think once hops are open, they are going to go down hill whether they are vacuum packed or not.

 

[BeachBeerBoo]

Came out great. Similar to commercial examples I've tasted. Thanks Braufessor!

 

[centrical]

**Also, often, I think bad or mediocre hops can smell ok in the bag. I notice them once they are added to the boil (too late).....

I am starting to believe that just too much of certain hops, at a certain time in the boil, can lead to a harsh/oniony taste. I bought a pound of amarillo that I used to make 2 batches of IPA. Both came out harsh and oniony rather than aromatic and fruity. I was convinced my amarillo was bad (even though they smelled exactly like another sample of amarillo I compared them too. Then I used them in a different style and only used a small amount. It came out great! citrusy, very nice aroma. I wonder if my IPAs just had too much in the boil or WP. Or DH? More experimenting might help, but nervous - tired of dumping batches.

 

[GnenieGone]

That's a lot of words to read, but as far as the off flavors, are we sure we're not dumping all the boil hops into the fermenter? IPAs all got better once I stopped doing this.

 

[Sbe2]

For those who keg hop, what is your process? Transferring, pellet/leaf, screen on dip tube or in a bag...etc

 

[sjfischr]

For those who keg hop, what is your process? Transferring, pellet/leaf, screen on dip tube or in a bag...etc

Typically I use a weighted hop bag for the high kräusen charge, and I recently bought a 300 micron mesh stainless tube for the keg. Heard great things for ease of use and no concerns about a lengthy stay in the keg. Great price, too.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GHSI9WO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Sbe2]

Typically I use a weighted hop bag for the high kräusen charge, and I recently bought a 300 micron mesh stainless tube for the keg. Heard great things for ease of use and no concerns about a lengthy stay in the keg. Great price, too.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GHSI9WO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

View attachment 554229

So do you plan on throwing that in the keg with pellets or whole leaf in the keg. Or are u cutting a hole in it and sliding it over the dip tube like Janish has done.

 

[GnenieGone]

Is anyone using Cryo hops during the fermenation? How do you introduce them?

 

[TimmyWit]

Is anyone using Cryo hops during the fermenation? How do you introduce them?

I just say "Citra, this is Mosaic. Mosaic, meet Citra".

After they're introduced I just proceed as normal and dump them in on day 3. The only difference is you only need half as many.

 

[Jeremy Hinkle]

Is anyone using Cryo hops during the fermenation? How do you introduce them?

I did cryo hops except for galaxy and those things are potent. Had lots of hop bite for the first 2 weeks. Don't go over half the amount. Maybe a little less.

 

[GnenieGone]

Thanks guys. Wondering if introducing them at day 2 fermentation, then giving it 8 more days before cold crash would shorten the 'bit' issue post kegging. Guess only one way to find out...

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I just say "Citra, this is Mosaic. Mosaic, meet Citra".

Unless of course they are something like Cascade and Fuggle, who are daughter and mother. And grandmother - there's a whole Oedipus thing going on there.

To be honest with that track record, the last thing you should do is put them together with lots of free alcohol...

 

[stickyfinger]

Is anyone using Cryo hops during the fermenation? How do you introduce them?

I used mosaic and citra cryo hops in a focal banger clone once in the dry hop. i wasn't that impressed. it's only one data point, but i have been using them in the kettle instead and pellets in the dry hop.

 

[stickyfinger]

Brau (and others using WY1272), I just used WLP051 (pretty close to 1272?) for the first time in an IPA. 9 days into fermentation took a sample, and it is pretty sulfury. How long after fermentation starts does the sulfur go away?

 

[GnenieGone]

Ok, head lowered in shame, I just mucked up. My NEIPA is at day 7. Just acceidently added another packet of WL644...wrong fermenter. I'm cold crashing the bucket now anyway. Anyone have any idea what this might do to the finished product?

 

[TimmyWit]

Ok, head lowered in shame, I just mucked up. My NEIPA is at day 7. Just acceidently added another packet of WL644...wrong fermenter. I'm cold crashing the bucket now anyway. Anyone have any idea what this might do to the finished product?

Was it already at FG and was that the same yeast you already had in there? If so, I would say you're good. There's nothing left for it to munch on so it will just crash out. On the off chance you're bottling and primary fermentation was accomplished with a different yeast strain, I would let it warm back up until gravity is stable in case the 644 will attenuate it lower.

Side note, I would ditch that bucket and swoop up a better bottle. We have seen the pics of what oxygen does to this style in this thread so I think you might be pleased with your results in a less O2 permeable vessel.

 

[sjfischr]

So do you plan on throwing that in the keg with pellets or whole leaf in the keg. Or are u cutting a hole in it and sliding it over the dip tube like Janish has done.

Throw it into the keg.
My hope is that its very design promotes an incredible amount of hop contact with the beer.

 

[TimmyWit]

Thanks guys. Wondering if introducing them at day 2 fermentation, then giving it 8 more days before cold crash would shorten the 'bit' issue post kegging. Guess only one way to find out...

I'm very curious to hear others thoughts on this but I would think the bite may be more noticeable the earlier you dry hop it. I know we have discussed the bite quite a bit in this thread but I don't think we ever nailed the root cause. The two most convincing theories I have seen for what causes the haze are

- fermentation dry hopping causes polyphenols which bind to proteins causing permanent haze
- fermentation dry hopping causes hop oils to coat the yeast cells and disturbs their ability to flocculate

Of course, there are plenty of other variables such as grain bill and water chemistry. But, IMO, it seems like the fermentation dry hopping may have something to do with the bite or "burn" since that is the biggest process difference between this and a standard IPA. The process causes stuff to be in suspension that normally wouldn't be there.

 

[TimmyWit]

@Braufessor - Have you noticed your haze is more permanent since you stopped keg hopping? My haze has been more permanent on my most recent batch. I think it's either because I changed the grain bill or because I skipped the keg hop. I was using that same process you provided in the first post with the double filter so maybe something was actually getting filtered out that is responsible for the haze.

 

[GnenieGone]

Was it already at FG and was that the same yeast you already had in there? If so, I would say you're good. There's nothing left for it to munch on so it will just crash out. On the off chance you're bottling and primary fermentation was accomplished with a different yeast strain, I would let it warm back up until gravity is stable in case the 644 will attenuate it lower.

Side note, I would ditch that bucket and swoop up a better bottle. We have seen the pics of what oxygen does to this style in this thread so I think you might be pleased with your results in a less O2 permeable vessel.

Thanks for the heads up! Yes the original yeast is Wyeast 1318 so 644 should definitely go lower.. I was going to keg it so bottle bombs are not possible. Warm up and give it another 7 days? Diacetyl is my bigger concern.

 

[GnenieGone]

Side note, I would ditch that bucket and swoop up a better bottle. We have seen the pics of what oxygen does to this style in this thread so I think you might be pleased with your results in a less O2 permeable vessel.

I'm admittingly sceptical. Obviously we need oxygen at first to ferment properly. However, once fermentation is complete pretty sure the bucket maintains a positive pressure to atmosphere. The Home Depot buckets I use have orings on the lids. Been using plastic for years and, besides NEIPAs, have produced phenomenal retail quality beers. And I know a good beer. Just my 2 cents.

 

[sjfischr]

@Braufessor - Have you noticed your haze is more permanent since you stopped keg hopping? My haze has been more permanent on my most recent batch. I think it's either because I changed the grain bill or because I skipped the keg hop. I was using that same process you provided in the first post with the double filter so maybe something was actually getting filtered out that is responsible for the haze.

I’m curious to know—sounds like lengthier hopping would cause more persistent haze. What did you change in the grain bill?

 

[TimmyWit]

I’m curious to know—sounds like lengthier hopping would cause more persistent haze. What did you change in the grain bill?

I omitted all flaked grains. I got the idea from the Scott Janish article where he stated:

"Mashes high in oats will likely have fewer polyphenols, lighter color, and more precipitated proteins."

He also comments that the timing of the dry hop may cause more haze:

"Dry hopping early during active fermentation may result in more haze, potentially because polyphenols are reacting to a greater concentration of proteins while fermentation is in the early stages."

http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/

 

[TimmyWit]

Thanks for the heads up! Yes the original yeast is Wyeast 1318 so 644 should definitely go lower.. I was going to keg it so bottle bombs are not possible. Warm up and give it another 7 days? Diacetyl is my bigger concern.

I realize I might be in the minority here but I like to leave mine go at least 2 weeks. I started paying closer attention to FG when I wanted to bottle a few for competition. I found that I got movement up to ~14 days with multiple strains. I aerate, make big starters and raise the temperature as fermentation progresses. But, when I started making sure I was stable over the course of 3 days, I was surprised to find that the yeast wasn't done as early as I thought it would be.

 

[GnenieGone]

Admittingly, a lot of my ipa issues started when I got away from 14-17 day fermentations and secondary dry hops. This quick fermatarion time and huge late hops additions really set me back. Think I'm getting a handle on it.

 

[Braufessor]

Brau (and others using WY1272), I just used WLP051 (pretty close to 1272?) for the first time in an IPA. 9 days into fermentation took a sample, and it is pretty sulfury. How long after fermentation starts does the sulfur go away?

I never experienced sulfur with 1272..... so, not any help there. I would definitely give it more time, and make sure it is in the 70-72 degree range if possible to help it finish out. Was the ferment slow or temps cool by any chance? Unusual for ale yeast to throw sulfur.

 

[Braufessor]

@Braufessor - Have you noticed your haze is more permanent since you stopped keg hopping? My haze has been more permanent on my most recent batch. I think it's either because I changed the grain bill or because I skipped the keg hop. I was using that same process you provided in the first post with the double filter so maybe something was actually getting filtered out that is responsible for the haze.

Personally, and from what some of the other regulars have noted, I think "grain bill" has very little to do with the haze. I think one thing that does make a difference in a more lingering "haze" is not just the fact that a "keg hop" is not used..... but, the other aspect I am doing now is ALL the dry hops are going in at day 2-3. Early on, the first dry hop was going in toward the tail end of fermentations and the second half was going in post fermentation in a dry hop keg. Now, I put it all in during active fermentation - I do think that is a major player in contributing to the hazy aspect of beers like this.

 

[ba-brewer]

Brau (and others using WY1272), I just used WLP051 (pretty close to 1272?) for the first time in an IPA. 9 days into fermentation took a sample, and it is pretty sulfury. How long after fermentation starts does the sulfur go away?

Used wlp051 California ale V once and it stunk up the garage, this is a known "feature" of that yeast. I did not notice it in the finished beer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Unusual for ale yeast to throw sulfur.

Nah, the BRY-97 family (including WLP051/1272) have got a bit of a reputation for sulphur, but it may be a sign of underpitching/underoxygenating. Doubtless your yeasties are living in the lap of luxury so aren't kicking up a stink!

I've got some WLP515 Antwerp and WLP030 Thames Valley in the fermenter at the moment, which may be members of the same family. It will be interesting to see if there's any sign of sulphur from them, I'm trying to let them be for the moment.

 

[ba-brewer]

Nah, the BRY-97 family (including WLP051/1272) have got a bit of a reputation for sulphur, but it may be a sign of underpitching/underoxygenating. Doubtless your yeasties are living in the lap of luxury so aren't kicking up a stink!

I've got some WLP515 Antwerp and WLP030 Thames Valley in the fermenter at the moment, which may be members of the same family. It will be interesting to see if there's any sign of sulphur from them, I'm trying to let them be for the moment.

Checked my notes and the last time I used wlp0515 there was slight sulfur smell during fermentation(19C), finished product very clean. Used wlp030 twice no comments in notes for the first time, but the second time it smelled fruity.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

That's interesting, thanks. Was 030 fruity in a could-be-useful-for-NEIPA way?

Per the link in my sig, this is based on tentative IDs on the yeast in the Gallone et al paper. There's a Belgian yeast which is probably 515 that has the same propyl acetate spike as 051 at 30C, whereas a related English yeast, possibly 030, is clean in comparison according to their data (which only covers certain esters and fusels).