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American IPA "Northeast" style IPA

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pshankstar

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8 days in and mine has dropped from 1.069 to 1.016. The yeast is a blend of WY1318 & OYL-052. The krasuen was huge on day two when I added the first dry hops.

I tasted the sample and it was delicious and had a great nose to it. It did have a bit of a bite to it, but I think that’s because the sample had some yeast in there. Well a fair amount.
 

stickyfinger

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Well, I've used WLP051 now to brew an NEIPA. I don't think I would recommend it unless you want to let it rest a long time to get rid of the sulfur. Took a sample at 13 days from pitching yeast, and I thought the sulfur had finally disappeared, but after kegging it, it still has some strong sulfur coming out with the carbonation. it will probably eventually go away, but i see no need to use this yeast if you want faster turnaround. it does have a really nice fermentation profile despite the sulfur. I can see how it would be a good yeast otherwise. i'm hoping the wy1272 has a similiar soft mouthfeel, nice haze without yeastiness and great hop flavor without the sulfur!
 
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Braufessor

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Figured it was about time for another “update” post. Not that there are a lot of differences, but, there are some recurring questions and I have streamlined a few things. It is probably just as easy to update the original post with a link to what I have settled on over the last year as opposed to some of the same questions coming up on a regular basis.

**I brew 6.5 gallons of finished beer (post boil)..... this allows me to leave some hop/trub behind in boil kettle and fermenter and get 5 gallons eventually into serving keg. If you finish with 5 gallons post boil, you might want to adjust hops down a bit.
6.5 gallons post boil
5.75 gallons into fermenter
5 gallons into keg

GRAIN BILL:
I have settled in around 1.060 OG. I think this makes a perfect compromise between getting into DIPA range (having beers that are just too high in abv. for my preference) and going too far toward 1.050 where the beer may become too much of a session IPA for some peoples preferences.

*If you want a bigger IPA, I would just keep the ratios of grain and increase the amounts to hit a higher OG. I would leave the hops the same the first time as far as amounts, and then adjust if you feel you want more bitterness, dry hop etc. on subsequent batches.

Approximate percent of grain bill and the actual amt. I use for 6.5 gallons @ 84% mash efficiency (your efficiency may vary so use the percentages)

37.5% Rahr 2 Row (5 lbs)
37.5% Golden Promise (or similar like Pearl, Maris Otter) (5 lbs)
7.5% Flaked Oats (1 lb)
7.5% Flaked Barley 1 lb)
7.5 % Weyerman Wheat (1 lb)
2.5% Honey Malt (1/4 lb)

60 minute mash @152-155)

*Note on grain. Using all 2 Row for Base is probably fine. Using any combination of flaked Oats/Wheat/Barley to get into the 20% range is probably fine too. In fact, based on others input, and based on my own experience – I think you could do all kinds of things with the grain bill and be fine, including dropping a bunch of the flaked, using whatever you want for base malt etc. The two things I do think are good for this beer in regard to grain bill:

1.) Keep it light and simple….. 3-5 SRM. Not much in the way of caramel/crystal malts, etc.

2.) I do like the addition of small amount of Honey Malt and recommend keeping it.

HOPS: (I have gone to 1 whirlpool/flameout addition and 1 dry hop)
**60 Min. = .5 oz Warrior (Or, none at all if you want to lay off bittering addition).

**Flameout/whirlpool =
Chill to 160 or below and add 6 ounces of Hops.
I generally go with 3 ounces of Citra, 2 ounces Mosaic, 1 ounce of Galaxy – but there are plenty of other combinations (listed later on).

I continue chilling at this point now…. No real “hop stand” at a particular temperature. I just like to get the temperature down to 160 or so, get the hops in, and continue chilling. It still takes 20-30 minutes from this point to going into fermenter anyway.

Stir up/whirlpool wort every 5 minutes or so to get hops in suspension.
Chill to 62-65 and let hops settle out as much as possible (just let it sit for 10minutes or so after it is chilled). Transfer wort to fermenter. I tend to leave behind .75 gallons of trub and hops (this is why I brew 6.5 gallon batch).

**Dry Hop – I now do a single, 6 ounce dry hop around day 2-3. Hops go in loose and they stay in for duration of fermentation. My standard recipe dry hop is 3 ounces of citra, 2 ounces Mosaic, 1 ounce of Galaxy.

I no longer do multiple dry hops. I no longer use dry hop keg….. depending on your system, that might be something you still want to do. However, I have found no difference with a single flameout addition and a single dry hop – plus it is way easier.

WATER PROFILE: Use 100% RO water to start with and adjust to a specific profile.

There are multiple directions to go here. I have kind of settled in with a Sulfate:Chloride of around 120:120. Honestly, I think you could put either number between 75-150 and make a fine beer. It is likely just personal preference at some point if you are in those ranges. I think most people tend to go higher on the Chloride and lower on the sulfate.

100% RO water. I add per gallon of mash and sparge water -
Gypsum = .6 grams/gallon
CaCl = .7 grams/gallon
Epsom = .3 gram/gallon
Lactic Acid = .1ml/gallon

Lactic Acid = I add about .5ml- 1ml of lactic acid to the mash and the sparge. And may adjust a bit more…. Aiming for about 5.30-5.40 mash pH and Preboil kettle pH.

Using B'run Water
Ca = 105
Mg = 8
Na = 8
Sulfate = 120
Chloride = 122
Bicarbonate = 16

Mash pH = 5.35
Final runnings pH = 5.60
Pre-boil Kettle pH = 5.40-5.45
Post Boil pH = 5.3-5.35

**Water strategies to test out for yourself to see what you like best;
2:1 Sulfate:Chloride in the 150:75 range
1:1 Sulfate:Chloride with both in the 120-150 range
1:2 Sulfate:Chloride in the 75:150 range
All will produce a good beer, but you may find something you personally prefer.
I did go 200 sulfate:50 Cl and it was fine. But, it was not what I was looking for. It definitely “dried” the beer out a bit. I think it definitely moved this beer away from what most of us are shooting for in a “NE IPA.”

Water Profile - the simple solution:

***Many people ask about a more general guide to water because they do not know what their own water profile is, or they have not made the jump to using a water profile software. I use B'run water, and the above profile. However, if you just want to get in the ballpark of something "similar" to start with - The simplest solution is this:
100% RO water for both mash and sparge.
Per 5 gallons of mash water: 1 tsp of CaCl + 1/2 tsp Gypsum
Per 5 gallons of sparge water: 1 tsp of CaCl + 1/2 tsp Gypsum

This should bring you in around 140 Chloride and 80 Sulfate.

Or….. to try other versions….
*The opposite: 1tsp of gypsum and ½ tsp of CaCl per 5 gallon
*Equal ratios: ¾ - 1 tsp of each per 5 gallon.

This does not take into account trying to get Na or Mg numbers. It ignores bicarbonate and as it is 100% RO, it should bring your mash pH in around 5.41 without any acid addition.

If you are doing the generic additions above, you could use about ½-1 ml of lactic acid in 5 gallons of mash water and in 5 gallons of sparge water.

ROUGH estimate of grams to tsp of minerals:
1/4 tsp Gypsum = .9 grams
1/4 tsp CaCl = 1.1 grams
1/4 tsp Epsom Salt = 1.3 grams
1/4 tsp Canning Salt = 1.8 grams

FERMENTATION:

Yeast - Conan(vermont IPA) or 1318 are probably the two “go-to” yeasts for this.

*** I have also found that 1272 works great. I think there are many yeasts that would likely do just fine in beers like this. 1056, 1450, 007…. I would not be afraid to try other yeasts. People have played around with quite a few different yeasts, and I think people have been at least satisfied with almost any yeast they tried for the most part. But, I think 1318 and Conan are going to give you the most authentic NE IPA.

I tend to start fermentation off around 64 at let it free rise to 66-68 degrees through the first 3 days or so of fermentation. At that point, I like to move it somewhere that it can finish off in the 68-70-72 range.

OTHER THOUGHTS/NOTES:

I keep almost everything the same in brewing IPA's to this style. However, I do mix up the hops. I always bitter with warrior (Columbus on occasion), and always use 2 x 6 ounce additions – one at flameout/whirlpool and one for Dry Hop ....... but, not always the same hops. Some other options for hops that I have liked:

· Equal parts Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy
· Equal parts Citra/Mosaic or Citra/Galaxy
· 100% Citra
· 1-2 ounce Galaxy: 4-5 ounce Citra
· Centennial:Simcoe:Amarillo 1: 2.5: 2.5
· Sub in Simcoe for Galaxy
· Other hops that can be used with success: Vic Secret, Eureka, Azacca, Columbus, Amarillo, Simcoe, and others I am sure….. I find the fruity/tropical hops work better than some of the classic piney/west coast IPA hops.

At the end of the day I still find it very hard to beat Citra:Mosaic:Galaxy combos.

Some offshoots related to this beer:

Blonde Ale:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/murican-blonde-ale.644482/

Besides just being a great blonde ale, I like using this beer to “make yeast”. When I get a pack of yeast, I brew this 4% blonde ale that uses modest kettle hops and no dry hops. When I keg it, I sanitize 4-6 mason jars in the ½ pint to pint size and lids. I leave a quart or two of beer in the fermenter, swirl it all up and then decant the slurry into mason jars….. basically, one pack of yeast turns into 6 jars of yeast to use on other beers. I might use 5 jars on this IPA or other beers, and then I use one of the jars on another blonde ale, and repeat harvesting yeast. I can easily get 15-20 beers out of a single pack of yeast doing this.

Hoppy Session Wheat: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/hoppy-session-wheat-beer.644047/

Want a great session beer (3.9-4.1 ABV range) that is hoppy, light and super drinkable….. basically a lighter version of the NE IPA above? Try this one. I was kind of looking for something else to do that was an off-shoot of this and was thinking maybe something in the realm of Gumballhead from Three Floyds…. This is what I came up with and it is really good. A lot of my regulars actually like this beer more than the NE IPA above.
 
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pearljam1984

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Brewing another variation this weekend.
Mixing it up a bit based on some recent examples I have tasted and different hops to try from Yakima valley. Also received in my new larger mash tun!

6.5 Gallons
OG-1.062
FG- 1.014(ideally)
Mash in at 151. Batch sparge.
10lbs- Golden promise (77%)
2lbs- flaked oats (15%)
1lbs- golden naked oats (8%)

Yeast- 1318

30min- CTZ - 1oz

Flameout/180- 1.0oz equal additions of Azacca, Citra, Mosaic, Hallertau Blanc, Calypso.

Day 3-Dry Hop #1- 1.0oz equal amounts of Mosaic, Azacca, Hallertau Blanc, El Dorado.

Day7- Dry Hop #2- 1.0oz equal amounts of Mosaic, Azacca, Hallertau Blanc, El Dorado.

Total hops- 14oz. (Undecided at this point if I’ll do any keg hopping as I purchased a new keg Hop filter)

Water-standard profile I always use for mouthfeel. start out with RO and add to get to SO4 75, CL 150.

Going to turn around in 14 Days, unless an issue comes up. Haven’t used golden promise in this style, however I have tasted it. Really thought it added some depth. Usually throw in white wheat malt as well, replaced with golden naked oats. Looking forward to it!
 
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Rob2010SS

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Brewing another variation this weekend.
Mixing it up a bit based on some recent examples I have tasted and different hops to try from Yakima valley. Also received in my new larger mash tun!

6.5 Gallons
OG-1.062
FG- 1.014(ideally)
Mash in at 151. Batch sparge.
7lbs- Golden promise (47%)
5lbs- 2-row (33%)
2lbs- flaked oats (13%)
1lbs- golden naked oats (7%)

Yeast- 1318

60min- CTZ - 1oz
Flameout/180- 1.0oz equal additions of Azacca, Citra, Mosaic, Hallertau Blanc, Calypso.

Day 3-Dry Hop #1- 1.0oz equal amounts of Mosaic, Azacca, Hallertau Blanc, El Dorado.

Day7- Dry Hop #2- 1.0oz equal amounts of Mosaic, Azacca, Hallertau Blanc, El Dorado.

Total hops- 14oz. (Undecided at this point if I’ll do any keg hopping as I purchased a new keg Hop filter)

Water-standard profile I always use for mouthfeel. start out with RO and add to get to SO4 75, CL 150.

Going to turn around in 14 Days, unless an issue comes up. Haven’t used golden promise in this style, however I have tasted it. Really thought it added some depth. Usually throw in white wheat malt as well, replaced with golden naked oats. Looking forward to it!
Can't wait to hear how this comes out. Keep us updated
 

PianoMan

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Mine turned again after day 4 in the kegged. Appear only a closed air tight system will work. I've only DH while fermenting, kept CO2 blasting during transfer, give it 9-10 days before kegging and still getting oxidized or post fermentation diacetyl. Hate to say I'm giving up on this style...but...

I can brew fantastic imperial stouts and Quads with my eyes closed. NEIPAS, nope.
 

stickyfinger

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Mine turned again after day 4 in the kegged. Appear only a closed air tight system will work. I've only DH while fermenting, kept CO2 blasting during transfer, give it 9-10 days before kegging and still getting oxidized or post fermentation diacetyl. Hate to say I'm giving up on this style...but...

I can brew fantastic imperial stouts and Quads with my eyes closed. NEIPAS, nope.
which yeast did you use? what day did you dryhop? did you test for diacetyl precursors before kegging?
 

grassfeeder

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How do you know it's turning/oxidized? What characteristics are showing up?
color alone will tell you. it will turn from a nice yellow/orange hue to an amber/brown coloring. its grossly obvious when it happens and will make baby jesus cry.
 
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Braufessor

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Mine turned again after day 4 in the kegged. Appear only a closed air tight system will work. I've only DH while fermenting, kept CO2 blasting during transfer, give it 9-10 days before kegging and still getting oxidized or post fermentation diacetyl. Hate to say I'm giving up on this style...but...

I can brew fantastic imperial stouts and Quads with my eyes closed. NEIPAS, nope.
When you say 9-10 days..... are you saying you are putting it in keg on day 9-10 from the day you brew? Are you cold crashing too? If you are following a schedule like below, I would not be at all surprised to get off-flavors/diacetyl, etc.
Day 1 - Brew
Day 2-3 Dry hop
Day 7 Cold Crash
Day 9 Keg.

If you are not already doing the following, I would recommend it - sometimes, it just takes yeast time - especially english yeast.
Day 1 Brew
Day 2-3 Dry hop
Day 10-12 put on counter in preparation of transfer
Day 12-14 Keg

*Ideally, have temperature in the 68-72 range for most of fermentation. Keep temperature going up, don't let it drop.

*I assume you are filling keg with star san, pushing out with CO2. Filling keg from bottom either with tubing or through keg post. Tight seals during transfer so O2 is not getting in tubing, posts, etc. Purging head space after transfer is complete.
 

Rob2010SS

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When you say 9-10 days..... are you saying you are putting it in keg on day 9-10 from the day you brew? Are you cold crashing too? If you are following a schedule like below, I would not be at all surprised to get off-flavors/diacetyl, etc.
Day 1 - Brew
Day 2-3 Dry hop
Day 7 Cold Crash
Day 9 Keg.

If you are not already doing the following, I would recommend it - sometimes, it just takes yeast time - especially english yeast.
Day 1 Brew
Day 2-3 Dry hop
Day 10-12 put on counter in preparation of transfer
Day 12-14 Keg

*Ideally, have temperature in the 68-72 range for most of fermentation. Keep temperature going up, don't let it drop.

*I assume you are filling keg with star san, pushing out with CO2. Filling keg from bottom either with tubing or through keg post. Tight seals during transfer so O2 is not getting in tubing, posts, etc. Purging head space after transfer is complete.
Brau, you don't recommend cold crashing?
 

VT_jlee

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color alone will tell you. it will turn from a nice yellow/orange hue to an amber/brown coloring. its grossly obvious when it happens and will make baby jesus cry.
It can also take a purplish hue to it... making it go from one of the most beautiful beers you've ever seen to looking very much like dirty pond water.

Here's an example of an intentionally oxidized NEIPA https://twitter.com/ScottJanish/status/901497157571792897
 

centrical

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Its turning more orange/dark. It was much lighter the day I kegged.
What Braufessor said about purging your keg - fill it with starsan (or water), and push it all out with CO2 - is MOST important. You are taking a huge risk if you simply fill/purge a few times after kegging it. I have gotten brown NE IPA before I started completely purging a full keg of starsan.
 

centrical

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What Braufessor said about purging your keg - fill it with starsan (or water), and push it all out with CO2 - is MOST important. You are taking a huge risk if you simply fill/purge a few times after kegging it. I have gotten brown NE IPA before I started completely purging a full keg of starsan.
And to follow up.. This does use a lot of CO2. So I use a shortcut: if you are kegging into a keg that had contained a similar beer, an other NE IPA for instance, you don;t really need to go through the whole process. When the keg is empty, keep it closed. Push 1 gallon of water or starsan in, shake it up to stir up the yeast, and push out that 1 gl with CO2. You are ready, and you used much less gas.

This is fairly safe, since you are keeping it refrigerated all of the time. of course, I would't do this too many times in a row with out opening it up and PBWing it and the lines.
 

PianoMan

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When you say 9-10 days..... are you saying you are putting it in keg on day 9-10 from the day you brew? Are you cold crashing too? If you are following a schedule like below, I would not be at all surprised to get off-flavors/diacetyl, etc.
Day 1 - Brew
Day 2-3 Dry hop
Day 7 Cold Crash
Day 9 Keg.

If you are not already doing the following, I would recommend it - sometimes, it just takes yeast time - especially english yeast.
Day 1 Brew
Day 2-3 Dry hop
Day 10-12 put on counter in preparation of transfer
Day 12-14 Keg

*Ideally, have temperature in the 68-72 range for most of fermentation. Keep temperature going up, don't let it drop.

*I assume you are filling keg with star san, pushing out with CO2. Filling keg from bottom either with tubing or through keg post. Tight seals during transfer so O2 is not getting in tubing, posts, etc. Purging head space after transfer is complete.

I'll try a longer schedule. I actually put potassium sorbate in the keg as a desperate measure. I may have 2 problems going on. The longer rest time seems easier to tackle. I have a fermenter going with WL644 and I was going to rack another neipa'ish attempt on top next week. Sanitation has never been a problem, ever, with any beer. And I'm doing due diligence...or so I think, trying to keep O2 out, I'll try harder.

Thanks again...
 
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PianoMan

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And to follow up.. This does use a lot of CO2. So I use a shortcut: if you are kegging into a keg that had contained a similar beer, an other NE IPA for instance, you don;t really need to go through the whole process. When the keg is empty, keep it closed. Push 1 gallon of water or starsan in, shake it up to stir up the yeast, and push out that 1 gl with CO2. You are ready, and you used much less gas.

This is fairly safe, since you are keeping it refrigerated all of the time. of course, I would't do this too many times in a row with out opening it up and PBWing it and the lines.
Checking for understanding. You have another keg with water or starsans that is used to fill through the IN line then pushed back put after.
 

grassfeeder

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Checking for understanding. You have another keg with water or starsans that is used to fill through the IN line then pushed back put after.
Here is what I do - I fill a keg with water/starsan and put it under pressure and purge the air out of it. I then take that purged keg and run it through my system emptying it into another awaiting keg thus filling that in which I'll purge for a later beer. I don't worry about emptying through a in/out. I just have it pouring off of my tap into the empty keg via a hose.
 

PianoMan

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Here is what I do - I fill a keg with water/starsan and put it under pressure and purge the air out of it. I then take that purged keg and run it through my system emptying it into another awaiting keg thus filling that in which I'll purge for a later beer. I don't worry about emptying through a in/out. I just have it pouring off of my tap into the empty keg via a hose.
Ok, see that idea. A more fundamental question is how do you keep the finished beer from seeing air during the transfer. Probably been answered 100 times here...how about 101?

And, you all do oxygenate the wort after boiling right?
 

VT_jlee

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Ok, see that idea. A more fundamental question is how do you keep the finished beer from seeing air during the transfer. Probably been answered 100 times here...how about 101?

And, you all do oxygenate the wort after boiling right?
After the keg is purged (filled with sanitizer then pushed out) I hook up the racking cane to the "OUT" post of the keg and then push the finished beer from the carboy into the keg. I pull the pressure relief so the CO2 can escape as the beer fills the keg.

And yes, I do oxygenate my wort prior to pitching the yeast.

IMG_20180124_212016935.jpg
 

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View attachment 555034

Horrible..looks more like by Dubbel, which is really nice BTW.
Maybe it's just the picture not reflecting what you're seeing, but that does not look bad at all. Just looks more orange. I think when there is more haze material in suspension it stops more light and makes it look lighter in color. If some of that drops out it goes darker. My early NEIPAs were turning true brown, which was not great. But that orange I wouldn't complain much about (personal opinion)
 

PianoMan

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After the keg is purged (filled with sanitizer then pushed out) I hook up the racking cane to the "OUT" post of the keg and then push the finished beer from the carboy into the keg. I pull the pressure relief so the CO2 can escape as the beer fills the keg.

And yes, I do oxygenate my wort prior to pitching the yeast.

View attachment 555035
Ahh.gotcha! I can set that up. Thanks!
Why isn't the beer carbonated??
Good question. I may have a leak on the keg this time. However, this issue happens regardless.
Maybe it's just the picture not reflecting what you're seeing, but that does not look bad at all. Just looks more orange. I think when there is more haze material in suspension it stops more light and makes it look lighter in color. If some of that drops out it goes darker. My early NEIPAs were turning true brown, which was not great. But that orange I wouldn't complain much about (personal opinion)
Humm, there's an extremely sharp bitter/repulsive taste right on the tip of the toung with a diacetyl follow up, yum. Other's mentioned acetaldehyde. But I stopped dumping everything from the kettel to the fermenter and that flavor I think, has gone away.

None of the Citra nor Mosaic character, which should be present. It was lighter before, I took a picture in a frosted glass, bad idea.
 
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stickyfinger

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Regarding the diacetyl issue, you could try adding the dry hops after 24 hours if you think it won't clog up your blowoff setup, etc. When I ask about testing for diacetyl precursors, you have to do more than just take a sample and taste it for diacetyl. you have to take a sample, put some saran wrap onto it and then hold it at about 170F for 20 minutes. let it cool down some, then chill it in a small water bath. then, smell and taste it. if you can then detect diacetyl, you know you have diacetyl precursors, and it is risky to keg it at that point (though, sometimes they turn to diacetyl with precursors and sometimes not.) the only time you can keg with confidence is if you don't detect any diacetyl after doing this "diacetyl force test."

i'd also let the carboy rest longer at room temperature. you have to give the precursors time to spontaneously oxidize to diacetyl so that the yeast can rid the beer of it. I'd let it go 2 weeks next time and dry hop at 24 hours if you can. at least, let it go 2 weeks. you aren't going to get off flavors in two weeks. also, make sure you keep the beer warm the entire time so the precursors oxidize more easily and the yeast stay around to clean it up. keep it at 68-72.

on thing people have mentioned about kegging into a fully purged keg is to get even more air out of the keg, you can fill it with star san, keep the fill line connected and then invert the keg upside down with your finger on the male gas in post threads on the keg. Then, tilt it back right side up slowly making sure to let any air that floated to the top come back up and go out the gas in connection. i do that a couple of extra times just to get as much air out as i can. then, i put in the gas-in dip tube and put on the out QD post while the star san runs out down the sides. i keep it in a small bucket to reduce the mess.
 

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Today I poured a NEIPA clone that was kegged six weeks ago. The permanent chill haze has kept this beer as cloudy as it was the first day it went into the refrigerator. It was brewed with 91% Pale Malt and 9% Torrified Wheat and fermented using White Labs - English Ale Yeast WLP002.

To me the key brewing process, for creating the chill haze, was to add dry hops three days after pitching the yeast and letting them soak for seven days.

sloop-sml.jpg
 

TimmyWit

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i'd also let the carboy rest longer at room temperature.
IMO his biggest problem regarding oxidation is that he's using an plastic bucket instead of a carboy which is more permeable by O2. I can appreciate that other styles come out fine that way. But, other styles can also be bottled without going south.

I'm admittingly sceptical. Obviously we need oxygen at first to ferment properly. However, once fermentation is complete pretty sure the bucket maintains a positive pressure to atmosphere. The Home Depot buckets I use have orings on the lids. Been using plastic for years and, besides NEIPAs, have produced phenomenal retail quality beers. And I know a good beer. Just my 2 cents.
I think the biggest difference with this style is the large amount of polyphenols that are created as a result of the fermentation dry hop. From what I gather, polyphenol oxidation is the reason why fruits turn brown and it may be the reason why we have issues with these beers being so prone to oxidation:
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/45/8/1150.full

@PianoMan, don't give up on the style. Try fermenting in a carboy and let it go 14+ days. I bet you will have it nailed.
 

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IMO his biggest problem regarding oxidation is that he's using an plastic bucket instead of a carboy which is more permeable by O2. I can appreciate that other styles come out fine that way. But, other styles can also be bottled without going south.
yeah, i don't know if a bucket is a good idea. i've never used one.

I think the biggest difference with this style is the large amount of polyphenols that are created as a result of the fermentation dry hop. From what I gather, polyphenol oxidation is the reason why fruits turn brown and it may be the reason why we have issues with these beers being so prone to oxidation:
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/45/8/1150.full

@PianoMan, don't give up on the style. Try fermenting in a carboy and let it go 14+ days. I bet you will have it nailed.
i have also been wondering if the huge amount of hops in suspensions somehow impede diacetyl precursors from oxidizing to diacetyl as easily as well, complicating the diacetyl issues that some of us have faced.
 
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Brau, you don't recommend cold crashing?
I don’t ..... some set ups vary though, and it might be necessary for some. If you have to, I would wait till day 12 to do it, personally. Especially with English yeasts. They can be a real problem with diacetyl if they don’t finish out and have time to clean up. Sometimes even a few degree drop will knock them out. So, personally, if I had to cold crash, I would not do it until day 12 and then keg on day 14.
 

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I don’t ..... some set ups vary though, and it might be necessary for some. If you have to, I would wait till day 12 to do it, personally. Especially with English yeasts. They can be a real problem with diacetyl if they don’t finish out and have time to clean up. Sometimes even a few degree drop will knock them out. So, personally, if I had to cold crash, I would not do it until day 12 and then keg on day 14.
absolutely! i never really had problems with diacetyl, but then once i started doing a lot of NEIPAs, I started getting it here and there. I think it was related to not letting the beer sit long enough before kegging. I also have a theory it is related to oxygen getting in during the cold crash, but I am not too sure about that at all. I tried to mitigate that by using a piece of copper wire wrapped around the lip of the carboy that i attach rubber bands onto to hold down my bung very tightly while cold crashing. I haven't had the guts to try to rack warm for a long time. I always had clogging. maybe i will be better off now that i use an autosiphon filter. the hops on top never seem to drop completely for me unless i crash.
 

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I've read through every post since my last comment and want to thank the contributors. This forum is top notch for education and suggestions even of they're repetitive.

You all got me thinking. 1) I need off flavor education. 2) Completely minimize air contact even if it seems trivial, using above suggestions. 3) Extend fermentation time. When doing west coast IPAs I ferment for about 17 days, transfer to secondly for another 5 then bottle. Beer saw alot of air yet these came out awesome even using 16oz hops for 5gal. Flavor would last maybe 5 weeks tops. 4) I'm still not convinced on the bucket vs glass O2 penetration. There's so much positive pressure why doesn't the co2 permeate out? However, if all else fails I'll try glass. 5) I read through the MadFermentaitionalist blog and he doesn't cold crash niether. So I'll skip that step. I never cold crashed doing WCIPAs. 6) Continue to oxygenate wort, even tho this seems counter-intuitive. 7) Immediately after kegging do a diacetyl sample test by heating up as suggested. 8) I always use RO and mineralize. Won't touch that.

Sorry I don't have anything to offer back the forum, I feel so selfish, but you all have helped mitigate the helpless.
 

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Good question. I may have a leak on the keg this time. However, this issue happens regardless.
@PianoMan Ive got to say that you are overlooking this very important part of the finished beer, carbonation. You are saying that after X amount of days in the keg it becomes oxidized or some how forms diacytel even after a relatively decent process to get the beer to the glass.

Beer foam and the carbonation play a key role to how we taste the beer, it also is responsible for delivering the aromatics from the glass. Without adequate foam on the beer from adequate carbonation the oils in the beer are not expressed best, the mouthfeel is dull and the true final flavor is not going to be delivered.

Id suggest that the beer be carbonated correctly and re serve the beer into a fresh clean glass and take another assessment of the beer. Just my advice.
 

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I've read through every post since my last comment and want to thank the contributors. This forum is top notch for education and suggestions even of they're repetitive.

You all got me thinking. 1) I need off flavor education. 2) Completely minimize air contact even if it seems trivial, using above suggestions. 3) Extend fermentation time. When doing west coast IPAs I ferment for about 17 days, transfer to secondly for another 5 then bottle. Beer saw alot of air yet these came out awesome even using 16oz hops for 5gal. Flavor would last maybe 5 weeks tops. 4) I'm still not convinced on the bucket vs glass O2 penetration. There's so much positive pressure why doesn't the co2 permeate out? However, if all else fails I'll try glass. 5) I read through the MadFermentaitionalist blog and he doesn't cold crash niether. So I'll skip that step. I never cold crashed doing WCIPAs. 6) Continue to oxygenate wort, even tho this seems counter-intuitive. 7) Immediately after kegging do a diacetyl sample test by heating up as suggested. 8) I always use RO and mineralize. Won't touch that.

Sorry I don't have anything to offer back the forum, I feel so selfish, but you all have helped mitigate the helpless.
stick it out, man. diacetyl and oxidation can be bitches, especially diacetyl. on the diacetyl test, please do it BEFORE kegging. Then, you know whether you can rack to keg or need to let it rest and maybe stir up the yeast for a few more days.
 

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@PianoMan Ive got to say that you are overlooking this very important part of the finished beer, carbonation. You are saying that after X amount of days in the keg it becomes oxidized or some how forms diacytel even after a relatively decent process to get the beer to the glass.

Beer foam and the carbonation play a key role to how we taste the beer, it also is responsible for delivering the aromatics from the glass. Without adequate foam on the beer from adequate carbonation the oils in the beer are not expressed best, the mouthfeel is dull and the true final flavor is not going to be delivered.

Id suggest that the beer be carbonated correctly and re serve the beer into a fresh clean glass and take another assessment of the beer. Just my advice.
i don't think you need foam per se. however, you are absolutely correct that hop character will be less without carbonation.
 

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@Pratty I know exactly what your saying. At firsr I'd dump once the discovery. Later I thought maybe it'll work it's way out. Diacetyl seems to get worse with time, or carbonation just brings it to your face more efficiently.

Diacetyl check BEFORE kegging...that does make more sense and possible without beer/air exposure.
 

stickyfinger

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What are the characteristics of diacetyl?
I assume you mean the flavor/aroma character. Some say butterscotch. I'd say that is pretty accurate in my perception. Diacetyl is the flavoring component in all microwave popcorn. In fact, there was a large class action lawsuit for workers in microwave popcorn factories, as they developed some type of cancer I think. Diacetyl at higher levels (than beer or eating microwave popcorn once in awhile) can be a carcinogen. Anyway, it is buttery, butterscotchy (in beer perhaps b/c of the caramel/malty combination with butter), and it can make a beer same thicker/fuller and silkier. It makes a really hoppy beer unpalatable to me. It can make a malty beer taste pretty good if it is not at too high of levels. I'd say that it is similar to using a super large amount of maybe C60 in a beer so that it comes across as super super caramelly. However, it is even more butterscotchy.
 

stickyfinger

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Carbonation = foam formation. Its super importany to the outcome.

Not all styles need it but this one I say should have a consistent head/foam to make the beer.

https://www.craftbeer.com/craft-beer-muses/the-science-behind-beer-foam
It's a subtle point, but you can have carbonation without a lot of head retention if the beer cannot sustain the bubbles. There are proteins required to create the foam. An example is a sour beer. Many are very very carbonated but have almost no head. Another is a beer with any oils in it, such as from nuts, chocolate or other fatty ingredients. I have created beers that are fairly carbonated but with little head retention by not adding any hops during the boil. I soon realized that by adding even a small amount of hops to the boil you can dramatically increase head retention. Your point about carbonation and perception of aromas and perhaps flavor is well-taken though.
 
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