New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA
- Thread starter Braufessor
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I am starting to believe that just too much of certain hops, at a certain time in the boil, can lead to a harsh/oniony taste. I bought a pound of amarillo that I used to make 2 batches of IPA. Both came out harsh and oniony rather than aromatic and fruity. I was convinced my amarillo was bad (even though they smelled exactly like another sample of amarillo I compared them too. Then I used them in a different style and only used a small amount. It came out great! citrusy, very nice aroma. I wonder if my IPAs just had too much in the boil or WP. Or DH? More experimenting might help, but nervous - tired of dumping batches.
That's a lot of words to read, but as far as the off flavors, are we sure we're not dumping all the boil hops into the fermenter? IPAs all got better once I stopped doing this.
Typically I use a weighted hop bag for the high kräusen charge, and I recently bought a 300 micron mesh stainless tube for the keg. Heard great things for ease of use and no concerns about a lengthy stay in the keg. Great price, too.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GHSI9WO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
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So do you plan on throwing that in the keg with pellets or whole leaf in the keg. Or are u cutting a hole in it and sliding it over the dip tube like Janish has done.
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Is anyone using Cryo hops during the fermenation? How do you introduce them?
I just say "Citra, this is Mosaic. Mosaic, meet Citra".
After they're introduced I just proceed as normal and dump them in on day 3. The only difference is you only need half as many.
Jeremy Hinkle
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I did cryo hops except for galaxy and those things are potent. Had lots of hop bite for the first 2 weeks. Don't go over half the amount. Maybe a little less.
Thanks guys. Wondering if introducing them at day 2 fermentation, then giving it 8 more days before cold crash would shorten the 'bit' issue post kegging. Guess only one way to find out...
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Unless of course they are something like Cascade and Fuggle, who are daughter and mother. And grandmother - there's a whole Oedipus thing going on there.
To be honest with that track record, the last thing you should do is put them together with lots of free alcohol...
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stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I used mosaic and citra cryo hops in a focal banger clone once in the dry hop. i wasn't that impressed. it's only one data point, but i have been using them in the kettle instead and pellets in the dry hop.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Brau (and others using WY1272), I just used WLP051 (pretty close to 1272?) for the first time in an IPA. 9 days into fermentation took a sample, and it is pretty sulfury. How long after fermentation starts does the sulfur go away?
Ok, head lowered in shame, I just mucked up. My NEIPA is at day 7. Just acceidently added another packet of WL644...wrong fermenter. I'm cold crashing the bucket now anyway. Anyone have any idea what this might do to the finished product?
Was it already at FG and was that the same yeast you already had in there? If so, I would say you're good. There's nothing left for it to munch on so it will just crash out. On the off chance you're bottling and primary fermentation was accomplished with a different yeast strain, I would let it warm back up until gravity is stable in case the 644 will attenuate it lower.
Side note, I would ditch that bucket and swoop up a better bottle. We have seen the pics of what oxygen does to this style in this thread so I think you might be pleased with your results in a less O2 permeable vessel.
Throw it into the keg.
My hope is that its very design promotes an incredible amount of hop contact with the beer.
I'm very curious to hear others thoughts on this but I would think the bite may be more noticeable the earlier you dry hop it. I know we have discussed the bite quite a bit in this thread but I don't think we ever nailed the root cause. The two most convincing theories I have seen for what causes the haze are
- fermentation dry hopping causes polyphenols which bind to proteins causing permanent haze
- fermentation dry hopping causes hop oils to coat the yeast cells and disturbs their ability to flocculate
Of course, there are plenty of other variables such as grain bill and water chemistry. But, IMO, it seems like the fermentation dry hopping may have something to do with the bite or "burn" since that is the biggest process difference between this and a standard IPA. The process causes stuff to be in suspension that normally wouldn't be there.
@Braufessor - Have you noticed your haze is more permanent since you stopped keg hopping? My haze has been more permanent on my most recent batch. I think it's either because I changed the grain bill or because I skipped the keg hop. I was using that same process you provided in the first post with the double filter so maybe something was actually getting filtered out that is responsible for the haze.
Thanks for the heads up! Yes the original yeast is Wyeast 1318 so 644 should definitely go lower.. I was going to keg it so bottle bombs are not possible. Warm up and give it another 7 days? Diacetyl is my bigger concern.
I'm admittingly sceptical. Obviously we need oxygen at first to ferment properly. However, once fermentation is complete pretty sure the bucket maintains a positive pressure to atmosphere. The Home Depot buckets I use have orings on the lids. Been using plastic for years and, besides NEIPAs, have produced phenomenal retail quality beers. And I know a good beer. Just my 2 cents.
I’m curious to know—sounds like lengthier hopping would cause more persistent haze. What did you change in the grain bill?
I omitted all flaked grains. I got the idea from the Scott Janish article where he stated:
"Mashes high in oats will likely have fewer polyphenols, lighter color, and more precipitated proteins."
He also comments that the timing of the dry hop may cause more haze:
"Dry hopping early during active fermentation may result in more haze, potentially because polyphenols are reacting to a greater concentration of proteins while fermentation is in the early stages."
http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/
I realize I might be in the minority here but I like to leave mine go at least 2 weeks. I started paying closer attention to FG when I wanted to bottle a few for competition. I found that I got movement up to ~14 days with multiple strains. I aerate, make big starters and raise the temperature as fermentation progresses. But, when I started making sure I was stable over the course of 3 days, I was surprised to find that the yeast wasn't done as early as I thought it would be.
Admittingly, a lot of my ipa issues started when I got away from 14-17 day fermentations and secondary dry hops. This quick fermatarion time and huge late hops additions really set me back. Think I'm getting a handle on it.
OP
OP
I never experienced sulfur with 1272..... so, not any help there. I would definitely give it more time, and make sure it is in the 70-72 degree range if possible to help it finish out. Was the ferment slow or temps cool by any chance? Unusual for ale yeast to throw sulfur.
OP
OP
Personally, and from what some of the other regulars have noted, I think "grain bill" has very little to do with the haze. I think one thing that does make a difference in a more lingering "haze" is not just the fact that a "keg hop" is not used..... but, the other aspect I am doing now is ALL the dry hops are going in at day 2-3. Early on, the first dry hop was going in toward the tail end of fermentations and the second half was going in post fermentation in a dry hop keg. Now, I put it all in during active fermentation - I do think that is a major player in contributing to the hazy aspect of beers like this.
Used wlp051 California ale V once and it stunk up the garage, this is a known "feature" of that yeast. I did not notice it in the finished beer.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Nah, the BRY-97 family (including WLP051/1272) have got a bit of a reputation for sulphur, but it may be a sign of underpitching/underoxygenating. Doubtless your yeasties are living in the lap of luxury so aren't kicking up a stink!
I've got some WLP515 Antwerp and WLP030 Thames Valley in the fermenter at the moment, which may be members of the same family. It will be interesting to see if there's any sign of sulphur from them, I'm trying to let them be for the moment.
Checked my notes and the last time I used wlp0515 there was slight sulfur smell during fermentation(19C), finished product very clean. Used wlp030 twice no comments in notes for the first time, but the second time it smelled fruity.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
That's interesting, thanks. Was 030 fruity in a could-be-useful-for-NEIPA way?
Per the link in my sig, this is based on tentative IDs on the yeast in the Gallone et al paper. There's a Belgian yeast which is probably 515 that has the same propyl acetate spike as 051 at 30C, whereas a related English yeast, possibly 030, is clean in comparison according to their data (which only covers certain esters and fusels).
Per the link in my sig, this is based on tentative IDs on the yeast in the Gallone et al paper. There's a Belgian yeast which is probably 515 that has the same propyl acetate spike as 051 at 30C, whereas a related English yeast, possibly 030, is clean in comparison according to their data (which only covers certain esters and fusels).
