Infection after 2weeks in bottles?

[minmaxx77]

Update. This spigot inner part was almost impossible to pull out from its shell without it almost breaking. It is unusable now but atleast i know what is inside

Edit: that was random spigot i had in my kit. So probably all that have been used look similar.
But i dont know how is it possible to regularly take apart. I tried to close it on table and needed all my bodyweight to push it fully in. (And as far as i kno i am not weak)

 

[G_robertus]

Just to rule out you have an issue with actual metals leaking in your beer:
If you dip your finger in the beer and rub it over the back of your hand, does your hand smell like metal? If so, you have iron coming into your beer from somewhere. If it doesn't, the metallic flavour is related to something elseb like oxidation, ingredients, etc.

For what it's worth, Chemipro products are not no-rinse, as it is illegal to market products as such in the EU. And in order to distinguish it from Star San, CP San contains a flavouring agent that I find disgusting and has to be rinsed off before you use the items. This is why I don't typically use it anymore.

Regarding your issues, you could narrow your problem down by leaving a beer in the fermenter for an extended period of time and see if it develops the flavour in there. If it doesn't, you know it's in the equipment you use for packaging. If it does, you'll have to look at earlier steps. Hoses can be a stubborn source of infection. You can treat silicone tubing with heat, but they are more oxygen sensitive (although that doesn't matter much if you always use a bottling bucket). I've found that heat is the most reliable way to get rid of micro organisms, so I try to treat everything I can with heat. Alkaline substances can also target some of the organisms who shrug off acidic chemicals.

 

[mac_1103]

I don't think I've ever seen a spigot like that. The ones I have look like this:

Much easier to take apart and put back together. Maybe your LHBS has something similar?

 

[IslandLizard]

Congrats on separating the spigot and having a good look inside...
Those wort/beer remnants can well be the cause of infections when not cleaned and sanitized thoroughly between batches.

Update. This spigot inner part was almost impossible to pull out from its shell without it almost breaking.

You'll need to soak the whole (plastic) spigot assembly in very hot water (read: nearly boiling) for a minute or so before attempting to separate the 2 main ~1" barrels. The heat makes the plastic much more pliable. Then push (or pull) it apart as soon as you remove it from the hot water.

Your spigot look closer to the ones I have than @mac_1103's. On mine the inner, nearly 1" diameter, barrel is fully rotatable inside the slightly wider outer one that has the threads that hold the nut. In that design, when you rotate the inner barrel (that holds the actual spigot with the little handle) the outer 1" diameter body remains put. So there will be no leaking.

 

[minmaxx77]

If you dip your finger in the beer and rub it over the back of your hand, does your hand smell like metal?

I'll give it a shot

CP San contains a flavouring agent

Thats explains why i felt its taste too before. Great that i have starsan now.
If cleaning/replaceing spigot and extra cleaning wont help I'll make some simple batch or even extract to test out leaving something in the FV for longer (ie +2 extra weeks).

You'll need to soak the whole (plastic) spigot assembly in very hot water

YES. Bravo. Much easier. And spigot remains useable.
I found out that there is tiny bit vaseline inbetween inner and outer barrel. I belive its there to make it more water tight? Should i put new before assemlbling on brewday?

 

[minmaxx77]

If you dip your finger in the beer and rub it over the back of your hand, does your hand smell like metal?

Wow this technique really helps to pronounce the smell.
No metallic smell. Unpleasant smell but i cant put my finger on it what its like.
Maybe little bit medicine?, mild nail polis remover?

Now i remember that smell. I did forced diacetyl tests when it was fermenting and it brought out that same smell i felt now. Can it be that forced D test also helped to produce those off flavours faster that was otherwise hidden at the time?.
Now im pretty much certain that the beer was infected before bottling.

 

[G_robertus]

That sounds like phenolic or chlorophenols. That could be due to an infection or, additionally in case of the latter, due to contamination with chlorine or similar compounds. Could it be that you don't rinse your bottles (well) after applying cleaners? Or that you rinse with water containing chlorine? I think VWP contains chlorine, so you really want to rinse that out properly. Whenever I use chlorine cleaners I rinse with water extensively and I let the items air out at least a day. The only time I didn't do that I had a chlorophenol problem. Chlorophenols are very harsh, typically bitter or astringent. Burnt rubber, medicinal, plasters, plastic or 'dangerous' (like "I really shouldn't consume this") smells/tastes are examples of what they can taste like.

By the way, how did you get the spigot open? I've tried for years to pull them apart but I just can't.

 

[minmaxx77]

That sounds like phenolic or chlorophenols. That could be due to an infection or, additionally in case of the latter, due to contamination with chlorine or similar compounds. Could it be that you don't rinse your bottles (well) after applying cleaners? Or that you rinse with water containing chlorine? I think VWP contains chlorine, so you really want to rinse that out properly. Whenever I use chlorine cleaners I rinse with water extensively and I let the items air out at least a day. The only time I didn't do that I had a chlorophenol problem. Chlorophenols are very harsh, typically bitter or astringent. Burnt rubber, medicinal, plasters, plastic or 'dangerous' (like "I really shouldn't consume this") smells/tastes are examples of what they can taste like.

By the way, how did you get the spigot open? I've tried for years to pull them apart but I just can't.

WE ARE onto something.
No chlorine on tap. But i looked it up and vwp does have chlorine. PBW doesnt wich was the cleaner i used before. Those off flavours and smells occured after i move to VWP. I do rinse many times but you never no if there is tiny bit left.
OR
Its an infection like i described in my edited post right above.

 

[minmaxx77]

By the way, how did you get the spigot open? I've tried for years to pull them apart but I just can't.

Like @IslandLizard pointet out you need to soak it in nearly boiling water.
I just boiled water in my electric kettle and pour it in the bowl with spigot. Let it sit for a minute and replaced water with new hot water (Bc at first bowl etc takes lot of heat away) then let it sit another minute or so.
I had the main nut in place halfway to help me have a better grip. Removed the spigot "handle" part by pulling. And put the screwdriver throu the part the spigot was so i have something better than flimsy spigot to pull

 

[hotbeer]

Several years ago before I changed to a different type of fermenter, I was using plastic spigots in my FV's. The first few times I took them apart and cleaned them. Then I realized I could buy them in bulk quantities of a dozen for less than a dollar USD each. After that they became a one use item and tossed in the recycling bin after that.

 

[minmaxx77]

Several years ago before I changed to a different type of fermenter, I was using plastic spigots in my FV's. The first few times I took them apart and cleaned them. Then I realized I could buy them in bulk quantities of a dozen for less than a dollar USD each. After that they became a one use item and tossed in the recycling bin after that.

I am looking for that option. Where i live there are only 2 Homebrew shops in the whole country. When i started i was suprised we even have them at all.

But even 1€ is cheap compared to hops. But then again i dont want to be wasteful

 

[Miraculix]

If you get one that can be reasonobly easily disassembled, you'll be fine. I also had troubles with my Speidel one, but once I manged, I knew how to do it and now it is easier.

 

[minmaxx77]

Its like a curse. I made this super juicy Nectaron/citra/sabro neipa. It was so good!!! And like witchcraft exactly @ 2weeks it starting to quickly have same off flavours.

Lucky enough i have gone through half of the bottles but its still such a waste.

Same thing will probably happen to my westcoast wich were bottled a week ago. I put all the bottles into the fridge im hopes it slowes the process.

I have one philly sour fermenting right now. With new clean spigot and used only PBW. Will see how it turnes out.

Probably will brew a smoked baltic porter and kveik ale next. But if this infection or whatever it is keeps occurring despite cleaning spigots etc then i dont know what i will do.

 

[IslandLizard]

I made this super juicy Nectaron/citra/sabro neipa. It was so good!!! And like witchcraft exactly @ 2weeks it starting to quickly have same off flavours.

2 weeks after you bottled the batch?
That's very sad, yes.
Something is still being missed...

Are you saving and repitching yeast from previous batches?
Making yeast starters?

After a good rinse out with tap water, do you clean with hot/warm PBW and a pad or brush?
Take everything apart that can be disassembled?

How do you clean your hoses/tubing?
What kind of tubing do you use?
Which during brewing, which for transfer to fermenter, and which for bottling?

What kind of wort chiller do you use?

 

[IslandLizard]

With new clean spigot and used only PBW.

No sanitizer?

 

[minmaxx77]

No sanitizer?

Wanted to say i used pbw instead of vwp. Used also a starsan.

I have to note that those batches were unfortunately done with the old "nasty" spigot. So no matter how good i was at bottling it wont help if the infection were already present due to the spigot.
So We need to wait and see how next 2 batches turn out using everything from the beginning. Cleaning, new cleaned spigots etc.

Are you saving and repitching

I do No repitching. no starters. Dry east only.

I use BIAB and chill with copper IC. Pour the wort into the bucket. Ferment. Siphon to the bottling bucket, then siphon to the bottles. Lids are kept on the buckets when siphoning. Small opening is covered with starsan soaked paper towel.
Yes. After brewin/bottling i usually rinse with clean water. Then use pbw to clean everything that touched the beer. Dirtier stuff(boil kettle, FV, mesh bag) i wash multiple times with new pbw solution. For autosiphon I siphon around gallon of hot pbw solution throu it and then take it apart so the solution gets everywhere then rinse. (Before bottling same gets done but with starsan)

Only question now is the spigot thing wich will be sorted out with next brews. hopefully it solves the issue.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

I had a bad batch last autumn from a not-so-clean plastic spigot. Taking a sample of the still-fermenting beer from the spigot leaves some sticky sweet residue behind inside the spigot, and if it's exposed to air, unwanted things are going to grow! I always sprayed some starsan up into the spigot, but at least once, it was not enough.

What I do now, is take a ONE TIME sample by dipping a (clean!) cup into the wort an hour or two after yeast are added -- five ounces is plenty. Then I pour that into the hydrometer test tube and secure a plastic bag over the top of it. Once the krausen on the hydro test tube subsides, you can wipe most of the sludge off with a paper towel, drop the hydrometer in, and watch for it to finish.

Also, I disassemble the spigots every time now, and soak them in oxiclean.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have to note that those batches were unfortunately done with the old "nasty" spigot.

How could you...?

Everything else in your procedure looks fine, yes.

How about all the tubing (hoses)?

How do you clean your hoses/tubing?
What kind of tubing do you use?
Which during brewing, which for transfer to fermenter, and which for bottling?

 

[minmaxx77]

I had a bad batch last autumn from a not-so-clean plastic spigot. Taking a sample of the still-fermenting beer from the spigot leaves some sticky sweet residue behind inside the spigot, and if it's exposed to air, unwanted things are going to grow! I always sprayed some starsan up into the spigot, but at least once, it was not enough.

What I do now, is take a ONE TIME sample by dipping a (clean!) cup into the wort an hour or two after yeast are added -- five ounces is plenty. Then I pour that into the hydrometer test tube and secure a plastic bag over the top of it. Once the krausen on the hydro test tube subsides, you can wipe most of the sludge off with a paper towel, drop the hydrometer in, and watch for it to finish.

Also, I disassemble the spigots every time now, and soak them in oxiclean.

Thats unique and interesting. Does the small sample ferment accurately with similar rate?

 

[minmaxx77]

How could you...?

These were already fermenting before you helped me to discovered spigot problem.

How about all the tubing (hoses)

Only tubing i have is autosiphon tube that gets cleaned like described.

For autosiphon I siphon around gallon of hot pbw solution throu it and then take it apart so the solution gets everywhere then rinse. (Before bottling same gets done but with starsan)

I think the above should be enough since it gets done immidiently after bottling. For FV i rinse and clean(brush) and soak with PBW. Dump the solution then rinse and do it again with new clean pbw solution.

For future purposes:
Yesterday i soaked all my empty and already clean bottles in hot pbw solution for about 30min. Then rinsed multiple times. Next time before bottling I will probably soak them overnight in starsan. Rn they are in closed box for storage.
I plan to use same time consuming technique (long soaking in pbw, rinsing, long soaking in starsan) on everything that touches or gets close to cooled wort/beer.(like spigots, siphon, buckets etc)
Its definetly overkill but i will do this excessive cleaning once for everything. So i can for sure start from clean slate.

Afterwards use my already good cleaning practices + new spigot opening.

I am planning on doing smoked baltic porter and simple kveik ipa. Kveik so i can quickly get to the point "2 weeks in bottles"

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Thats unique and interesting. Does the small sample ferment accurately with similar rate?

Yes, if you keep it next to the fermenter (ie, same ambient temperature).

 

[IslandLizard]

These were already fermenting before you helped me to discovered spigot problem.

Ah, I see.

Only tubing i have is autosiphon tube that gets cleaned like described.

Inspect and separately clean and sanitize that hose that's connected to the siphon tube.
Then let the inside dry in between uses. I therefore drape my hoses over a corner pole on a storage rack, so they can drip out from both ends, and air dry over a few days.

Or store (flexible) hoses in the bottom of a bucket containing 5-8 cm (2-3") height of Starsan working solution. Nothing can grow in there, but the vinyl tubing will get a milky/cloudy appearance, which doesn't harm performance. Rinse/brush, then resanitize immediately before using again.

For example:
I have a 2.5' (~75 cm) piece of thin (~5/32" (ID) hose in the bottom of my Starsan bucket. It's being used to take suck siphon samples from bucket fermenters, through the airlock hole. It's minimally invasive, and none of my brew buckets have spigots to keep clean or get stepped on.

A long draw brush can be helpful to clean the inside of hoses. Or make one yourself with a wad made of fabric and a piece of wire or nylon string on each end, so you can pull the fabric wad back and forth inside the tubing/hose.

Right before use, or re-connecting to other (cleaned and sanitized) equipment, always re-sanitize the various pieces again.

Although it's good to pump cleaner, rinse water, then sanitizer through the siphon, it's also crucial to take the individual pieces apart to clean/rinse/sanitize, and... let thoroughly air dry between uses. It's those tight damp spaces where bugs can hide and multiply.

 

[minmaxx77]

Same thing will probably happen to my westcoast wich were bottled a week ago. I put all the bottles into the fridge im hopes it slowes the process.

Its almost two weeks and westcoast ipa seems to taste pretty normal. They were reasonabely carbed at 10 days so i decided to put them all in fridge. So maybe this is slowing down the off flavour production.
I did leave one bottle at room temp. Wich i will open in one month.

The other brews/beers that already had the off flavours are now a bit overcarbed. Not much but they will come slowly out of the bottle if i open them and dont pour them in 30s or so. This is also a sign of infection if im not mistaken.
So the spigot was probably the hidden problem i had. We will see. I am bottling one batch this weekend. Beer i brewed with knowledge attained here.

FYI I'm not planning on empting all the previous "bad" beer bottles i have. At least not all of them. (Too much work) I tasted one and its mellowed down a bit and taste interesting. They are in my "beer fridge". Lets see how they taste after longer lagering. Just have to call it "wild ale" and we're good.

 

[IslandLizard]

The other brews/beers that already had the off flavours are now a bit overcarbed. Not much but they will come slowly out of the bottle if i open them and dont pour them in 30s or so. This is also a sign of infection if im not mistaken.

That often happens due to a (slow) lingering infection in the beer.

Just open one every week or so, and compare with previous ones you've opened.
If pressure (the pssst sound) or foaming is increasing, be careful!

Here's why you need to be very careful:
When pressure gets higher than the bottle can handle, they can become grenades, blowing up in your hands when touched, handled, or opened. Or they may spontaneously explode on your shelf, making a big mess and potentially destroying whatever is nearby, embedding shards in everything.

So keep tabs on them and make sure no-one, including yourself, can get hurt or maimed by flying glass shards.
It's usually best to package them inside a sturdy box or wooden crate, or a steel bin, with a tied down lid on it.

 

[minmaxx77]

Hello again. Im am totally lost now. im playing russian roulette with my brews.

One Neipa that has been in bottles little over 2 weeks now is starting to get same off flavours. Even tho it was done with extra cleaning measures. Only difference is it seems to be noticeable with slower rate...

That is so damn sad since those brews turned out Super amazing pale and juicy. It is mind blowing beacause there is no sign of any off flavours or anything weird for the first week or so.

I have another Neipa and one more Orange peel kveik IPA that have been almost 2w in bottles and i am afraid they will also meet the same destiny

There are some brews that havent developed off flavours. Interestingly one even before i learned to properly clean the spigots.

Same thing will probably happen to my westcoast wich were bottled a week ago. I put all the bottles into the fridge im hopes it slowes the process.

Now 6 weeks in bottles and westcoast still tasted good last time i tasted it. It was maybe 1.5w ago. Seems that even tho it used old spiggot it somehow didn't get infection. I will taste again this weekend.

I have one philly sour fermenting right now. With new clean spigot and used only PBW. Will see how it turnes out.

Probably will brew a smoked baltic porter and kveik ale next. But if this infection or whatever it is keeps occurring despite cleaning spigots etc then i dont know what i will do.

they had same good cleaning and sanitizing practices.
Philly sour has been in bottles for 4 weeks and tastes fine
Smoked porter has been in bottles for 2 weeks and also is fine...for now.

I don't know what will i do with my life.

 

[Miraculix]

Are you 100% sure that you are not tasting the slow progress of oxidation? Looks a bit like it because the neipa would be the easiest to oxidize in a tastable way and it is also the one that shows the signs of the off flavour first.

 

[minmaxx77]

Im sure it can't be oxidation because there is zero changes in color. I use all the good practices to avoid oxidation that i got from the long thread about bottling neipas.
Before i learn about it my dryhopped beer used to change in color on and develop kinda old sweet strawberry jam flavour (its exactly how Dr.Hans from youtube describe it and it helped me to understand oxidation better.)

I use magnets to attach hops to the lid. So i never have to open before bottling. Dont cold crahs neipas. and fill bottles all the way up.

Can it be my LHBS has infected hops?

 

[IslandLizard]

That is so damn sad since those brews turned out Super amazing pale and juicy. It is mind blowing beacause there is no sign of any off flavours or anything weird for the first week or so.

As @Miraculix said, that could be oxidation.

Especially very hoppy beers, such as NEIPAs, are very susceptible to the effects of oxidation. Even more than a few ppb (parts per billion) of O2 can have negative effects.
O2 exposure is almost unavoidable during bottling. Even the air in the bottle's headspace will add a significant amount of O2, which may start oxidizing hops flavor and aroma compounds before the yeast gets to metabolize the O2 while carbonating.

Those of us who keg their beer, especially IPAs and NEIPAs, take utter precautions to avoid oxygen exposure at all stages of the process after the boil, except for a "measured dosage" of O2 when pitching (active) yeast. The more successful we are in avoiding O2 exposure, the longer the beer will remain fresh.

Philly sour has been in bottles for 4 weeks and tastes fine

Have you previously had any of the same flavor issues with Philly Sour fermented beers?

Smoked porter has been in bottles for 2 weeks and also is fine...for now.

Darker beers can hide many imperfections, even flaws. Did you have the same flavor issues with darker beers too? Did it take longer to present themselves?

One thing I've noticed about "smoked beers" that also stands out is that when they oxidize or spoil they become extra putrid (foul tasting). Very special yuck!!!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

O2 exposure is almost unavoidable during bottling. Even the air in the bottle's headspace will add a significant amount of O2, which may start oxidizing hops flavor and aroma compounds before the yeast gets to metabolize the O2 while carbonating.

O2 exposure is almost unavoidable during bottling. Even the air in the bottle's headspace will add a significant amount of O2, which may start oxidizing hops flavor and aroma compounds before the yeast gets to metabolize the O2 while carbonating.

FWIW, those who bottle NEIPAs and enjoy the fresh for a number of months have posted a number of topics here on how to do it.

 

[minmaxx77]

Thank you. But I belive that i can rule out oxidation. I had oxidation problems on my heavily hopped beers before i knew how sensitive those hoppy beers are. After learning this it finally explained why all of my hoppy beers before had similar taste and never anything tropical... so i learned from others how you can avoid oxidation with neipas even when bottling. And those oxidation flavours havent occured anymore... now i get something totally new and distinct. It feels "wild" or "strange". It slightly overcarbs the beers that have this off flavour. And its so easy to detect. No matter the beer you feel it is there and its annoyng flavour. Over the course of week or so it gets stronger and stronger until it overpowers all other flavours in beer.

Should i bleach all my stuff? How is bleach used?