English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[DBhomebrew]

Lyle's is a decent sub, but it's not really the same thing.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I was gonna rack my Imperial Stout to secondary today, but I have been couch ridden with a 39c fever and sore throat.
Am compensating by sipping a small glass of expensive rum and waiting for the pork filled oven-baked pancake to get ready.
Served with homecooked lingonberry jam ofc...

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Bottling my " Dobby the house bitter today" It's nothing special ... Marris Otter ,crystal 40 , fuggles and muntons yeast. It's part of my experimental 1 gallon brews ( will be taste testing my " Beer Hunter" Deer camp brown" tonight with some friends) . I will change 1 variable each batch just to see what works , next variable for this one will be invert ... should I make it myself or buy some Lyle's golden syrup or similar?

Making your own invert seems daunting at first, but is actually really simple.

 

[Miraculix]

I am brewing something very similar but with Maris Otter this weekend.

Cannot go wrong with this combination!

I haven't tried the Windosr/Notty mix yet. How do you like it? I'm brewing something similar soon with the Whitbread strains 1098/1099.

I have not tried it yet. I wanted to brew with S04 plus 1099 in the mix but apparently, my 1099 did not survive the freezing. Now I have to improvise and I wanted to try the Notti/Windsor combination since ages.

Full pack of each yeast?

Half a pack each. Then I can brew it again, without ordering new packs.

Cheaper to do it yourself and it isn't that difficult.

This!

 

[Witherby]

My plan is also a half packet of each.

I also have a dark mild in the works. I made #2.5 invert (somewhere between 2 and 3 I think) on the stovetop but I think I will try the oven method next time, especially for #3 or #4 which cook for really long times. I bought an oven thermometer to make sure the oven temp is correct.

I have never adding baking soda to neutralize the acid when making invert. Funny that none of the recipes for invert--mostly derived from Ron Pattinson--mention this step, but it makes sense that raising the pH will allow for more Maillard reactions and interesting flavors, which I think would be desirable in #3 invert in a dark mild. Do you think I could reheat what I have made, add some baking soda to neutralize, and then cook it longer at 235F/113C to darken it?

 

[Miraculix]

My plan is also a half packet of each.

I also have a dark mild in the works. I made #2.5 invert (somewhere between 2 and 3 I think) on the stovetop but I think I will try the oven method next time, especially for #3 or #4 which cook for really long times. I bought an oven thermometer to make sure the oven temp is correct.

I have never adding baking soda to neutralize the acid when making invert. Funny that none of the recipes for invert--mostly derived from Ron Pattinson--mention this step, but it makes sense that raising the pH will allow for more Maillard reactions and interesting flavors, which I think would be desirable in #3 invert in a dark mild. Do you think I could reheat what I have made, add some baking soda to neutralize, and then cook it longer at 235F/113C to darken it?

I did not use any baking soda for a long time. Then I made the before/after test with a baking soda addition and the flavour was clearly different. I prefered the baking soda version.

As a side note, in a dark mild, the yeast does not matter much, if you ask me. Attenuation-wise it does, but flovour-wise it does not. At such a low abv. most yeasts taste the same, not enough sugar present to throw out enough flavour compounds that really make a difference. At least that was my impression. So good old notti will do for a higher attenuated dark mild and Windsor for a lower one. But do not expect big yeast flavour differences.

 

[bellhp]

Cheaper to do it yourself and it isn't that difficult.

Will do then...thx.

 

[Brewskey]

Do you think I could reheat what I have made, add some baking soda to neutralize, and then cook it longer at 235F/113C to darken it?

I have done this before with good results. How much acid did you use? I ruined a couple batches early on by not neutralizing with an invert recipe that called for quite a lot of lactic acid. Both beers were noticeably tart. I use less acid now and neutralize with baking soda. I don't have a good way to test the final pH of the invert but I've had good results. Not sticking my probe in that lava...

 

[Miraculix]

My proven anti-OCD method:

Add sugar to a pot, add water, dissolve, boil, add a dash of lemon juice, boil for 20 minutes to half an hour, add a dash of baking soda, taste. Sour and/or lemon taste? More baking soda! Tastes like baking soda? Too much, add a bit of lemon juice. Tastes just sweet and neutral caramell-ish? perfect, job done.

There is no need for prolonged heating after neutralisation of the acid.

 

[Witherby]

There is no need for prolonged heating after neutralisation of the acid.

What if you want to make it darker and more flavorful?

I guess I need to do an experiment. I have two jars of my #2-ish invert. I will take "before" photos of the color. I will heat them up and pour them into stainless pots and add baking soda to one of them. I will place them in a 235F oven for 90 minutes and then compare for flavor and color.

My guess is the color might be the same but the neutralized one will have a better flavor due to increased Maillard reactions (as opposed to just caramelization/pyrolysis).

 

[Miraculix]

What if you want to make it darker and more flavorful?

I guess I need to do an experiment. I have two jars of my #2-ish invert. I will take "before" photos of the color. I will heat them up and pour them into stainless pots and add baking soda to one of them. I will place them in a 235F oven for 90 minutes and then compare for flavor and color.

My guess is the color might be the same but the neutralized one will have a better flavor due to increased Maillard reactions (as opposed to just caramelization/pyrolysis).

You use sugar cane molasses or muscovado sugar in the invert sugar boil. That is the traditional English way. Other unrefined high quality sugar cane sugars will do as well.

 

[Witherby]

You use sugar cane molasses or muscuvado sugar in the boil. That is the traditional English way.

I started with demerera (or some other unrefined cane sugar). But all of the instructions say that more time at 235F increases the color and that has been my experience in the last few times I made it. Long boils darken it. But you need a REALLY long boil to really darken it and I never bothered because I have Brupaks caramel coloring if I want a dark beer.

BUT, if more time also means better flavor, you can't achieve that with just caramel coloring. Otherwise why would Ron's recipes bother with #3 invert when you could just add caramel color?

 

[Miraculix]

I started with demerera (or some other unrefined cane sugar). But all of the instructions say that more time at 235F increases the color and that has been my experience in the last few times I made it. Long boils darken it. But you need a REALLY long boil to really darken it and I never bothered because I have Brupaks caramel coloring if I want a dark beer.

BUT, if more time also means better flavor, you can't achieve that with just caramel coloring. Otherwise why would Ron's recipes bother with #3 invert when you could just add caramel color?

Who said something about caramel colour?

The darkening with time and temperature is areal thing, it is just not what was and is used during English invert brewing sugar production. Different process, different taste. Afaik, the belgians use this prolonged heating method for their candi sugars. But these taste different than the english inverts.

English inverts really just get their colour from the refinement stage of the base sugars being used. The darker the invert, the more unrefined the sugar that was used for the invert was.

I approximate my No. 2 invert with about 1/3 completely unrefined cane sugar (like muscovado) and the rest partially refined cane sugar. Works well.

 

[Witherby]

Who said something about caramel colour?

The darkening with time and temperature is areal thing, it is just not what was and is used during English invert brewing sugar production. Different process, different taste. Afaik, the belgians use this prolonged heating method for their candi sugars. But these taste different than the english inverts.

English inverts really just get their colour from the refinement stage of the base sugars being used. The darker the invert, the more unrefined the sugar that was used for the invert was.

I approximate my No. 2 invert with about 1/3 completely unrefined cane sugar (like muscovado) and the rest partially refined cane sugar. Works well.

Not that I don't believe you (honestly!), but can you point me in the direction of a written description of the English process historically used?

And are you saying that the description that Ron has in his book (and which has been repeated in many, many places) is just a method to get to the right color when starting with white sugar? Because I have never read that #2 comes from starting with a lighter unrefined sugar and #3 comes from starting with a darker unrefined sugar.

And what sugar would you use to make #4? It seems to me that has to involve the prolonged heating method.

This just goes against what I've been reading and doing for a decade. Usually I trust Ron above all else in a fight against the common "wisdom" of the internet. But the common wisdom on how to make invert comes from Ron (and honestly the only reason most of us are even bothering to use invert is because of Ron) so I am at a loss!

 

[Miraculix]

Not that I don't believe you (honestly!), but can you point me in the direction of a written description of the English process historically used?

And are you saying that the description that Ron has in his book (and which has been repeated in many, many places) is just a method to get to the right color when starting with white sugar? Because I have never read that #2 comes from starting with a lighter unrefined sugar and #3 comes from starting with a darker unrefined sugar.

And what sugar would you use to make #4? It seems to me that has to involve the prolonged heating method.

This just goes against what I've been reading and doing for a decade. Usually I trust Ron above all else in a fight against the common "wisdom" of the internet. But the common wisdom on how to make invert comes from Ron (and honestly the only reason most of us are even bothering to use invert is because of Ron) so I am at a loss!

Well, than you have to re-read what Ron wrote, because everything I told you, I got from him. It is a mix of his articles and direct chatting with him here on the forum.

If I remember correctly, the different inverts are created on the bigger scale by adding sugar cane molasses, not darker unrefined sugars. But it is easier to get hold of high quality unrefined sugars than to get hold of a high quality sugar cane molasses.

I was as surprised as you are, as I did it "wrong" for a long time myself. I cannot really point you to the articles, they are somewhere in his blog and a quick search did not yield results...

 

[Franktalk]

My plan is also a half packet of each.

I also have a dark mild in the works. I made #2.5 invert (somewhere between 2 and 3 I think) on the stovetop but I think I will try the oven method next time, especially for #3 or #4 which cook for really long times. I bought an oven thermometer to make sure the oven temp is correct.

I have never adding baking soda to neutralize the acid when making invert. Funny that none of the recipes for invert--mostly derived from Ron Pattinson--mention this step, but it makes sense that raising the pH will allow for more Maillard reactions and interesting flavors, which I think would be desirable in #3 invert in a dark mild. Do you think I could reheat what I have made, add some baking soda to neutralize, and then cook it longer at 235F/113C to darken it?

I think that you get plenty of Maillard reactions and interesting flavors just in the amount of time that it stays at 250F or so to get it to #2 or 3 invert. I usually let my #2 simmer for 90 minutes or so, and it gets caramel, toffee, and various candy flavors without neutralizing it.

 

[Brewskey]

Here's the process from the Ragus website. It's made from sucrose with molasses added to reach the desired color.

"First, cane sucrose is heated in an inversion pan with water until it dissolves. The sucrose is dissolved to a super saturation before hydrochloric acid is introduced to reduce the pH to between 1 and 1.6. When the temperature of the pan has settled at 70° for over two minutes, the cane sugar completely dissolves in the water and forms a syrup. This is achieved through the inversion of sucrose into glucose and fructose molecules.

Then, the syrup needs to be polarised to -20 to achieve the desired ratio of sucrose: glucose, before being neutralised with a natural alkaline agent that brings its pH value to between 6 and 6.5.

Then, cane molasses is released from its holding tanks and into the inversion pan, adjusting the colour and developing the flavour of the invert syrup. The inversion pan is then cooled, and dextrose seed is added. Without this step, the blend would not form into the distinctive blocks."

 

[Miraculix]

I think that you get plenty of Maillard reactions and interesting flavors just in the amount of time that it stays at 250F or so to get it to #2 or 3 invert. I usually let my #2 simmer for 90 minutes or so, and it gets caramel, toffee, and various candy flavors without neutralizing it.

That is an option, but not the traditional British way. Sounds more like the Belgian way.

Here's the process from the Ragus website. It's made from sucrose with molasses added to reach the desired color.

That was one of the sources, thanks! I forgot!

 

[balrog]

polarized?

 

[Brewskey]

polarized?

I'm not sure what that means either...

 

[balrog]

I know what it is with light, but...

 

[Miraculix]

polarized?

They mean inverted. The light get's polarized when letting it shine through the inverted sugar solution.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I'm not arguing either way on what's correct, but the following will explain why the heat/time method was/is touted as the 'right' way.

The heat/time method and the molasses method both are laid out in this unholymess blog, once a major source for the recipe...

https://web.archive.org/web/2020011.../blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert
In the comments below this Let's Brew recipe Kristen England* claims to be a co-author adding some (he is American, after all) weight...

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2012/05/lets-brew-wednesday-1987-boddingtons_23.html?m=1
In the comments here, Ron himself sends a commenter to unholymess for the invert recipe...

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2017/04/lets-brew-1943-whitbread-mackeson-stout.html?m=1
*@BrewnWKopperKat, add the proliferation of the heat/time method of making invert sugar to the list.

 

[Colindo]

I am not convinced that adding molasses is the traditional way. It seems to be the modern way that Ragus and Lyle are using (I know that Young's Special Mix, made by Lyle, contains molasses). The traditional way described by unholymess and Ron Pattinson is to let the inverted demerara sugar solution simmer for hours.

Check out this paper for a historical description: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1896.tb00086.x

 

[Brewskey]

The sugar solution starts polarized. As light passes through, the sugar solution filters out non-parallel rays. When inverted, the polarization turns 90°. Kind of like when you look at a phone screen with polarized sunglasses. Turn your head 90 and see what happens.

I'm not arguing either way on what's correct, but the following will explain why the heat/time method was/is touted as the 'right' way.

The heat/time method and the molasses method both are laid out in this unholymess blog, once a major source for the recipe...

https://web.archive.org/web/2020011.../blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert
In the comments below this Let's Brew recipe Kristen England* claims to be a co-author adding some (he is American, after all) weight...

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2012/05/lets-brew-wednesday-1987-boddingtons_23.html?m=1
In the comments here, Ron himself sends a commenter to unholymess for the invert recipe...

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2017/04/lets-brew-1943-whitbread-mackeson-stout.html?m=1
*@BrewnWKopperKat, add the proliferation of the heat/time method of making invert sugar to the list.

I made some No. 3 using his dilution method a while back. It works well, haven't brewed with it yet though.

It would have been better if he would have told you which sugar to use for each level of invert. Saying to start with "Sugar in the Raw or other demerara cane sugar" is setting people up for failure. You can't make No. 1 with demerara sugar, it's too dark, and it's really too dark for No. 2 if you're using it as 100% of the sugar. I guess you could make No. 3 with just raw cane sugar but you'd have to cook it for a long time... I'd put it more like this:

No.1 Raw cane sugar (the light stuff like this stuff.)
No.2 Mix of raw cane sugar/demerara ( not sure on the percentages)
No.3 Demerara

I don't cook mine for a long time anymore, although I have in the past. If you start with the right sugar you don't really need to.

 

[Colindo]

You can't make No. 1 with demerara sugar, it's too dark, and it's really too dark for No. 2 if you're using it as 100% of the sugar.

That is completely incorrect. Demerara sugar, which is the same as sugar in the raw, has 6-7 EBC. 25 EBC are needed for Invert #1. It seems to me that you are using the wrong sugar nomenclature.

Edit: Your link leads to "pure sugar" of the pale form, that is without the molasses removed. "Sugar in the raw" is to the best of my knowledge an unrefined sugar, but one that has the molasses removed.

 

[Miraculix]

I am not convinced that adding molasses is the traditional way. It seems to be the modern way that Ragus and Lyle are using (I know that Young's Special Mix, made by Lyle, contains molasses). The traditional way described by unholymess and Ron Pattinson is to let the inverted demerara sugar solution simmer for hours.

Check out this paper for a historical description: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1896.tb00086.x

Ron has changed his mind about certain things over time because of results of additional research. The last thing he said here on the forum was that the traditional way is by adding molasses/unrefined sugar to control the colour.

 

[Brewskey]

That is completely incorrect. Demerara sugar, which is the same as sugar in the raw, has 6-7 EBC. 25 EBC are needed for Invert #1. It seems to me that you are using the wrong sugar nomenclature.

Edit: Your link leads to "pure sugar" of the pale form, that is without the molasses removed. "Sugar in the raw" is to the best of my knowledge an unrefined sugar, but one that has the molasses removed.

Maybe... This is what I get for demerara, there are a couple other brands available locally but they're all quite dark. Way too dark for No.1.

 

[Colindo]

Ron has changed his mind about certain things over time because of results of additional research. The last thing he said here on the forum was that the traditional way is by adding molasses/unrefined sugar to control the colour.

Sorry, I'll need a source for that, since I also gave one.

 

[Colindo]

Maybe... This is what I get for demerara, there are a couple other brands available locally but they're all quite dark. Way too dark for No.1.

This should be the stuff.

 

[Miraculix]

Sorry, I'll need a source for that, since I also gave one.

Then look for one

 

[Colindo]

Then look for one

Dude, that's exactly how not to argue.

 

[Miraculix]

Dude, that's exactly how not to argue.

I am not arguing at all. I'm sharing what in thinkingb and remembering. As I said before, I cannot find the sources anymore so it's up to you to find them if your interested and don't trust my word enough.

Or your can ask Ron himself, that's also an option. I only have half of the stuff I've read remaining in my head he surely has more to contribute.

 

[Brewskey]

This should be the stuff.

That is "Raw Organic Granulated White Premium Cane Sugar", not demerara. Am I missing something?

​

 

[Brewskey]

Left: Made with 100% Raw cane sugar. Right: Made with 100% demerara.

 

[Colindo]

I am not arguing at all.

You need to look up the definition for "argue".

That is "Raw Organic Granulated White Premium Cane Sugar", not demerara. Am I missing something?

​

Sorry, my mistake. It seems "Sugar in the raw" is an American trade brand and I was not looking at the description carefully. But the stuff you linked for demerara are definitely more dark than the stuff sold both in the UK and Germany as demerara. More like unprocessed cane sugar.

 

[Brewskey]

Sorry, my mistake. It seems "Sugar in the raw" is an American trade brand and I was not looking at the description carefully. But the stuff you linked for demerara are definitely more dark than the stuff sold both in the UK and Germany as demerara. More like unprocessed cane sugar.

No worries. I figured there was a difference in the names.

 

[Miraculix]

You need to look up the definition for "argue".

Sorry, my mistake. It seems "Sugar in the raw" is an American trade brand and I was not looking at the description carefully. But the stuff you linked for demerara are definitely more dark than the stuff sold both in the UK and Germany as demerara. More like unprocessed cane sugar.

Mate honestly, don't interpret my stuff. I am German and probably am to direct for half of the world but I give my best not to write anything in between the lines, to avoid sarcasm and irony and stuff like this. So really, I am only quoting the thoughts in my head. No arguing, no trying to convince somebody, no nothing. Just pure offering of information. What everybody makes out of it is entirely up to him.

 

[Colindo]

These here were all made from the sugar shown on the left with different boil times. The flavour is honey --> raisins --> roasted almonds --> currant + plum

 

[Colindo]

Mate honestly, don't interpret my stuff. I am German and probably am to direct for half of the world

Jo, deswegen vermutete ich, dass du nur "argue = streiten" kennst, nicht "argue = argumentieren". Ich meinte aber letzteres.