English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[ba-brewer]

I'd get a more "true" English yeast for the bitters and IPA, the scottish yeast might be a bit too neutral and bland.

I have used wlp028 in the past and it seemed to be quite neutral to me too. According to the whitelabs propaganda it is suppose to have more character fermented warmer. To test that I recently did a Scottish export and allow it to run wild. I pitched at 20C and it got up to 25C on its own and stayed there a few day. It is still conditioning but the sample at kegging did not seem estery but I will know for sure in a couple weeks.

I have never got the 70-75%attenuation posted on the whitelabs page for wlp028, it normally comes in about 68% attenuation.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I've gotten 72%, but that was with s dash of demerara sugar and a 66c mash...

 

[WesBrew]

I have used wlp028 in the past and it seemed to be quite neutral to me too. According to the whitelabs propaganda it is suppose to have more character fermented warmer. To test that I recently did a Scottish export and allow it to run wild. I pitched at 20C and it got up to 25C on its own and stayed there a few day. It is still conditioning but the sample at kegging did not seem estery but I will know for sure in a couple weeks.

I have never got the 70-75%attenuation posted on the whitelabs page for wlp028, it normally comes in about 68% attenuation.

That is disappointing. White labs description made is seem more estery.

 

[ba-brewer]

That is disappointing. White labs description made is seem more estery.

I am not really disappointed, it could of been very overwhelming. I will give it a sample in a couple weeks to see how it develops, there was still a little yeast in the beer when I sampled it and that was the flavor I was picking up most. The yeast seemed really happy at the higher temp requiring a blow off tube which did not happen when I controlled the temp in the past.

I will add that I do not open ferment which could change the outcome.

 

[WesBrew]

ah, went back a looked at it. it does say it gets more fruity when your temp is in the higher temp range

 

[McMullan]

I got a couple packs of Verdant due to the hype and haven't been arsed to use them so far.

 

[DuncB]

@McMullan
You're one step ahead of me I haven't been arsed to get any.

 

[monkeymath]

I got a couple packs of Verdant due to the hype and haven't been arsed to use them so far.

I just happened to taste the gravity sample of my Dark Mild using Verdant (first time user). Day 5 of fermentation; 19 deg C; almost no airlock activity; down from 1.040 to 1.012; tasted very fruity - I'm sort of hoping it's partially the acetaldehyde I tasted and the final product will be more malt-forward.

 

[Miraculix]

I just happened to taste the gravity sample of my Dark Mild using Verdant (first time user). Day 5 of fermentation; 19 deg C; almost no airlock activity; down from 1.040 to 1.012; tasted very fruity - I'm sort of hoping it's partially the acetaldehyde I tasted and the final product will be more malt-forward.

I'm afraid you're tasting the beer .

That's why I'm going to copitch notty and verdant in my next bitter, to bring down the fruityness a bit.

I already tried leaving out the invert, didn't change the excessive. fruityness.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

to continue the topic of invert sugars @cire
I have been reading some posts from a user/thread over at the British sister forum, and old pattinson blog entries, and have started to reconsider my approach to invert sugars.
Firstly, our way of making coloured invert via partial caramellisation has nothing to do with the brewing sugars of old, and should be dropped if you wish to emulate "real" invert, as you have previously mentioned.
Secondly, using Demerara or light Musco to emulate #2 and the same but with a dash of dark Musco to emulate #3 is likely a better approach. The user/thread previously mentioned suggests use of white cane sugar as the base, but I fear that carries too little flavour, the old descriptions, and a pdf from Ragus I found, on both the manufacture and the sugars themselves, describes #2 and #3 as rather colourfull and flavourfull, with plenty of taste carry-over in the finished beer, hence my choice to go for L.Musco as the base for #3 and Demerara/ L.Musco for #2.
You have previously mentioned that you only heat the sugar to around 80c when you manufacture your invert, this seems to have been and still be the way it is done at Ragus, both to invert the sugar and to evaporate water.
This process should create some light maillard reactions, but could this not be achieved by adding the sugar early and let it boil for as long as the wort boils? Combined with the slight acidity of the wort and high temps it should also at least partially invert it.
Am I understanding this correctly?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

So to experiment, I have a dark mild coming up tomorrow, meant to be brewed with caramellised invert syrup.
Instead I will use light Musco, and 2/10ths of the total sugar weight as dark musco, added as soon as a prober boil is going.
MO as base
8% crystal, 50/50 150/240 ebc
4% brown malt
4% wheat
2% black malt
10% "invert #3 "
OG 1.038 19 IBU 90 min boil.

 

[Miraculix]

to continue the topic of invert sugars @cire
I have been reading some posts from a user/thread over at the British sister forum, and old pattinson blog entries, and have started to reconsider my approach to invert sugars.
Firstly, our way of making coloured invert via partial caramellisation has nothing to do with the brewing sugars of old, and should be dropped if you wish to emulate "real" invert, as you have previously mentioned.
Secondly, using Demerara or light Musco to emulate #2 and the same but with a dash of dark Musco to emulate #3 is likely a better approach. The user/thread previously mentioned suggests use of white cane sugar as the base, but I fear that carries too little flavour, the old descriptions, and a pdf from Ragus I found, on both the manufacture and the sugars themselves, describes #2 and #3 as rather colourfull and flavourfull, with plenty of taste carry-over in the finished beer, hence my choice to go for L.Musco as the base for #3 and Demerara/ L.Musco for #2.
You have previously mentioned that you only heat the sugar to around 80c when you manufacture your invert, this seems to have been and still be the way it is done at Ragus, both to invert the sugar and to evaporate water.
This process should create some light maillard reactions, but could this not be achieved by adding the sugar early and let it boil for as long as the wort boils? Combined with the slight acidity of the wort and high temps it should also at least partially invert it.
Am I understanding this correctly?

I think all of this is correct. However one caveat, it looks like all the information is relying on one source (ragus) and back in the days there must have been more invert producers and these might have used different methods, including colouring via maillard reactions. I would really like to know more about this. Maybe @patto1ro can give us some insight?

In terms of using not inverted sugars, I think that this is not the best idea. Inverting is a step that costs money, if it wouldn't have benefited the beer significantly, people would have ditched the inversion step already back in the days.

Might have something to do with the creation of glucose and fructose and therefore aiding fermentation and yeast expression.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Most of what I've seen via googling and rons's blog suggest the Ragus way has been the modus operandi, and that invert was produced from cane sugar with molasses added back in varying degrees.
On the inversion part, the guy at the British forum spoke about modern raw cane sugar varieties already being partially inverted, and with some further (possible) inversion going on in the wort boil, is it really necessary to go through the faff of doing it? If you can do a close approximation of old days darker inverts by just using raw cane sugars with varying degrees of molasses rich dark varieties?

 

[Miraculix]

Most of what I've seen via googling and rons's blog suggest the Ragus way has been the modus operandi, and that invert was produced from cane sugar with molasses added back in varying degrees.
On the inversion part, the guy at the British forum spoke about modern raw cane sugar varieties already being partially inverted, and with some further (possible) inversion going on in the wort boil, is it really necessary to go through the faff of doing it? If you can do a close approximation of old days darker inverts by just using raw cane sugars with varying degrees of molasses rich dark varieties?

I understand the logic behind that, but I still somehow have the feeling that they did the inversion on purpose, because it brought something significantly positive to the table compared to directly using the corresponding sugars plus maybe some molasses. But I cannot really point to more than a gut feeling, because surely at least some inversion will also take place during the boil. Maybe not enough?

 

[D.B.Moody]

I understand the logic behind that, but .. .

. . . then all we would have to do is add light or dark brown sugar. Brown sugar is just cane sugar and molasses, but that just seems wrong.

 

[warx]

I've got a batch of English IPA destined for cask (based on Martin Keen article) and used some Ringwood yeast I did not know what else to use for. It took a while to get going despite making a 36hr starter. However, it is still going slowly from 1059 to 1015 (says 74%) which is surprising. I am worried about diacetyl with this yeast so going to try ramping from 18C to 23C for a couple of days but it is still fermenting (iSpindel still showing slow drop in gravity) so not sure when to do the heat-up.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Stinging Nettle Ale. My kids have recently been keen on foraging. At about the same time, the Machine House Brewery in Seattle with an English head brewer, released their seasonal Stinging Nettle Ale. My LHBS guy gave a head's up, and I went and tried some last Saturday. Quite nice and actually pretty ******* good. The brewer wasn't there but the server said that they basically put the stinging nettles in bags and did a late hop addition. The stinging nettles are almost hoppy in flavor/aroma. Earthy, a bit spicy and herbaceous (not grassy).

So, I promptly made a version with
2.75 kg Chevalier
.5 kg light DME
Fuggles bittered to 25 IBU (or BU/GU: .5)
And then 350gr stinging nettles as a 15 minute flame out edition
WLP Essex Ale yeast (if finishes too sweet, I will zap with some notty to attenuate further)
OG = 1050

Lightly hopped to let the nettles shine through. It's been fermenting for 5 days, so give me a little time for it to ferment out.

 

[Miraculix]

It's that time of the year again where I want to collect nettles and brew a beer plus make a soup with it, and don't manage to do it because I'm too busy.

 

[eshea3]

Most of what I've seen via googling and rons's blog suggest the Ragus way has been the modus operandi, and that invert was produced from cane sugar with molasses added back in varying degrees.
On the inversion part, the guy at the British forum spoke about modern raw cane sugar varieties already being partially inverted, and with some further (possible) inversion going on in the wort boil, is it really necessary to go through the faff of doing it? If you can do a close approximation of old days darker inverts by just using raw cane sugars with varying degrees of molasses rich dark varieties?

Is there a difference between numbered invert sugars and brewer's sugar block (the Ragus product)? Ron's writing - at least in the Let's Brew book (Mini Boox Series Volume XXX) - suggests that brewers used lots of proprietary sugars but he also notes that he knows exactly what numbered invert sugars are and provides the often followed recipe for producing them at home.

 

[Franktalk]

I've got a batch of English IPA destined for cask (based on Martin Keen article) and used some Ringwood yeast I did not know what else to use for. It took a while to get going despite making a 36hr starter. However, it is still going slowly from 1059 to 1015 (says 74%) which is surprising. I am worried about diacetyl with this yeast so going to try ramping from 18C to 23C for a couple of days but it is still fermenting (iSpindel still showing slow drop in gravity) so not sure when to do the heat-up.

Now is the time to ramp it up. If you wait until the yeast drops, and it will with Ringwood, you will have missed it. You need some yeast in suspension to do the cleanup.

 

[warx]

Now is the time to ramp it up. If you wait until the yeast drops, and it will with Ringwood, you will have missed it. You need some yeast in suspension to do the cleanup.

Thank you! Starting the ramp now. It is still dropping and did not realize I had to no wait for complete attenuation.

 

[McMullan]

to continue the topic of invert sugars @cire
I have been reading some posts from a user/thread over at the British sister forum, and old pattinson blog entries, and have started to reconsider my approach to invert sugars.
Firstly, our way of making coloured invert via partial caramellisation has nothing to do with the brewing sugars of old, and should be dropped if you wish to emulate "real" invert, as you have previously mentioned.
Secondly, using Demerara or light Musco to emulate #2 and the same but with a dash of dark Musco to emulate #3 is likely a better approach. The user/thread previously mentioned suggests use of white cane sugar as the base, but I fear that carries too little flavour, the old descriptions, and a pdf from Ragus I found, on both the manufacture and the sugars themselves, describes #2 and #3 as rather colourfull and flavourfull, with plenty of taste carry-over in the finished beer, hence my choice to go for L.Musco as the base for #3 and Demerara/ L.Musco for #2.
You have previously mentioned that you only heat the sugar to around 80c when you manufacture your invert, this seems to have been and still be the way it is done at Ragus, both to invert the sugar and to evaporate water.
This process should create some light maillard reactions, but could this not be achieved by adding the sugar early and let it boil for as long as the wort boils? Combined with the slight acidity of the wort and high temps it should also at least partially invert it.
Am I understanding this correctly?

I'd avoid white sucrose all together, cane or beet. It terms of flavour(s) it really adds zero and totally misses the point. Don't be fooled by advice on a UK home brew forum. They can type **** until the cows come home. I'm really happy adding a small amount of molasses to achieve the desired colour rather than simmer at close to 120°C for hours. It works.

 

[tracer bullet]

really adds zero

Agreed to this. I've used it in the past to dry out an Irish Stout, and it works but that's really all that it does.

 

[McMullan]

Most of what I've seen via googling and rons's blog suggest the Ragus way has been the modus operandi, and that invert was produced from cane sugar with molasses added back in varying degrees.
On the inversion part, the guy at the British forum spoke about modern raw cane sugar varieties already being partially inverted, and with some further (possible) inversion going on in the wort boil, is it really necessary to go through the faff of doing it? If you can do a close approximation of old days darker inverts by just using raw cane sugars with varying degrees of molasses rich dark varieties?

I've never heard of 'modern raw cane sugars'. It is what it is. Cane sugar. The idea adding a small proportion (~1-5% of the sugar added) molasses to get the colour right, with a little more character, flavour wise, is nothing new. Historically, I'm not so sure there was a standard as such. Ragus are just among one or two main suppliers today. Historically, traditional breweries often had their own proprietary takes on it. You can't beat some of the finest luscious Demerara, inverted or not, imho

 

[warx]

Does an IPA bound for cask conditioning (well keg, aspirator, beer engine etc.) need a cold crash? I've just ramped my 18C ringwood fermentation to 23C to rest for two days but I see most people crash IPAs at least if they are heading for regular secondary, carbonating, and kegging. All my previous brews (about 7) have been Bitters or Milds.

 

[warx]

Also, my previous brew was Sharps Doom Bar clone (cask). I got some brew-day volumes wrong and gravities were low (especially the final at OG 1.006). It tasted sort of weird (lacking residual sugar?) but I have never tried this beer in the UK (I left in 1994). However, Now it is about 35 days since brewing it really is starting to taste good in a unique way. Odd that a brew this weak ABV would still be improving as I tapped it at least two weeks ago and beared through the not great flavor.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

@McMullan got a dark mild boiling atm, 10% sugar, divided in 8/10 light muscovado and 2/10 dark muscovado. Billingtons ofc, even though they charge an arm and a leg for it here, there are no shortcuts to perfect British ale right? Or No bottom in the rabbit hole...
I agree with you on avoiding white sugar, especially since most old documents seem to point to white cane only being used to make invert#1, and "rawer" varieties being used as the base for 2 and 3, I think light musco or demerara for 2 and adding a bit of dark musco for 3 is the way to go, and I will have to research further how much inversion will actually happen in the boil if letting the sugar swim along for all of it.
Will report back with the results in a month or so.

 

[monkeymath]

I feel like I'm falling behind again.

So we shouldn't add plain white sugar, inverted or not? But "darker" sugars like Demerara are good? Aren't those just the same plain white sugar sprayed with a measured amount of molasses? Shouldn't we be using the straight molasses then? But then, just to reiterate @Miraculix ' point: why does or did anyone bother with inverts?!

 

[McMullan]

I feel like I'm falling behind again.

So we shouldn't add plain white sugar, inverted or not? But "darker" sugars like Demerara are good? Aren't those just the same plain white sugar sprayed with a measured amount of molasses? Shouldn't we be using the straight molasses then? But then, just to reiterate @Miraculix ' point: why does or did anyone bother with inverts?!

Maybe try to get hold of some authentic Demerara sugar from the UK. Most of the crap in Europe is indeed lab-grade beet sucrose sprayed with something.

Edit: Found this in my notes. The syrups derived from refining sugar cane and the syrups derived from sugar beet differ considerably. Those from sugar beet are described as ‘nauseous’ therefore it’s important to achieve a higher level of purity, in terms of the end product, sucrose. Those from sugar cane are very flavourful and widely used as culinary ingredients. Raw cane sugar, which is what inverted English brewing sugars are made from - despite being mainly sucrose - presents more than just boring, one-dimensional sweetness, according to my eyes and tastebuds. Unlike refined white sucrose derived from sugar beet, raw cane sugar isn’t ‘laboratory grade’. Raw cane sugar retains some of the flavourful molasses.

It doesn’t surprise me that people don’t notice any difference in flavour when refined white sugar is added to a brew. It makes big Belgian beers more drinkable, that's all. I’d be surprised if they didn’t notice any difference when using raw cane sugar(s), though.

Why are they so different? Sugar cane (Saccharum officinarum) and sugar beet (Beta vulgaris) are completely different species. Sugar cane is a grass (monocot) and sugar beet is a tuber-forming herb (dicot). Ignoring the fact they’re members of the plant kingdom, make livings out of photosynthesis and producing flowers, the only thing they have in common is the ability to concentrate sucrose in their tissues, making them commercially viable crops. One prefers growing in the tropics and the other prefers growing in temperate conditions, in completely different climates and soils. They have completely different evolutionary histories and ecologies, which is why they differ biochemically - why their ‘impurities’ differ so much.

 

[Miraculix]

I eat sugar beat molasses for breakfast in my porridge. I also have sugar cane molasses, which I don't like for breakfast, they taste considerably different. Beet tastes caramelly, sugar cane tastes in a weird way minerally and like licorice.

Both taste completely different when fermented out, so this is no judgement here in terms of brewing qualities, just meant to show that both are really different and not interchangeable.