What happened to IPA?

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Pehlman17

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I feel like I’m starting to understand the old “fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you” saying.

I picked up a 4-pack of canned IPA from a very respected brewery here in Southern California. Packaged on 2/4/24 printed on the bottom. I crack one of these cans open and pour it into a glass. The tantalizing aroma practically fills the room. The can says Nelson, Simcoe, and Columbus. Looks like I’m in for a good time. There is a slight haze but it’s mostly clear and a light blonde color in the glass. 6.3% ABV is modest by today’s standards but still enough to get the job done. Based on aroma alone I feel like I could crawl into this beer and let it envelop me. This beer tells me I’ll be safe here, and to feel free to stay a while.

I take a sip. Hmm…. Not at rich as I’d expected. Another sip. Hmm… even less than before? What’s going on? How can something so enticing be so bland?

I hear time and time again from brewers talking about the new west coast ipa. How they’ve done everything they can to “make room for the hops”. Caramel/Crystal malt is gone. Pale malt has been replaced by the lightest possible Pilsner malts. Hot side hopping has been minimized if not downright eliminated. Lager yeast really gets out of the way and “lets the hops shine” they say. Brewing salts are approached from more of a German/Czech lager perspective now than that of the old English ways.

I understand the idea that dry hopping at rates of 4+ pounds per barrel introduces its own kind of bitterness. I get that crystal malt can give flavors that one might associate with oxidation. I get that neutral yeast strains may not compete with hop flavor and aroma. I do. But at the end of the day, does it make for a good/interesting beer? I’d argue no, it doesn’t. This isn’t just based off of my experience with this specific beer today. This is me getting tired of the same thing over and over again. Giving breweries chance after chance to show that what they say is real and meaningful. This isn’t some ‘old man yells at cloud’ sort of thing. It’s more of an ‘emperor’s new clothes’ sort of situation. These beers are out here completely bland and naked. No soul, no structure. They smell great but leave the rest of the experience empty. Yet everyone seems to be praising how great and put together they are. How brewers of these beers are constantly “pushing boundaries”. But fundamentally they are lacking. A true taste experience has to hit all aspects of our palate to really be interesting. It needs to be savory, and seasoned, and bitter, etc. But all in balance with each other of course. Lately these beers seem like they’re killing it in one department, and then just calling it a day. Completely neglecting the rest of the fundamentals and structure needed for a fully formed and balanced presentation. I’m trying not to be biased or one who expects things to be locked into a certain time and place. But I also understand taste and flavor, and how things that we might not enjoy (like bitterness) on their own still play a supporting roll in making things super inviting and interesting on the palate.

I get that brewing is a business and that they need to do what they can to keep the doors open and the lights on. The IBU wars were dumb. But that also doesn’t mean bitterness is bad. I think there is an opportunity here for brewers to take the power back a bit. It’s clear that consumers have driven the industry lately more so than the creators have. But this has lead to a neutered beer landscape in many ways. Craft beer doesn’t need to be offensive but it does need to push people out of their comfort zones. I experienced this with trying to understand hazies. I came around to at least understanding it and appreciating it for what it was.

But let’s also not forget that beer is for adults. Adults should learn to appreciate how things like bitterness can actually enhance the tasting experience. That stouts don’t need to taste like breakfast cereal. Coffee doesn’t always need cream and sugar. And if people need beer to be soft and unoffensive then maybe it’s ok to tell them to look elsewhere.

Craft breweries, some famously, would talk sh*t about macro lager and how it was bland and boring, and was appealing to an audience who didn’t actually like beer. Nowadays, likely from the rise of craft lager, it seems like it’s cool to talk sh*t on those breweries for talking sh*t. But that’s missing the point completely. They weren’t talking sh*t about the classic German and Czech lager breweries. They were talking on the companies that sold a watered down product that was more concerned with pleasing the uninitiated than the diehards. I love hops and hoppy beer. I just can’t help but feel disappointed that that’s what I’m seeing and tasting now from the craft scene.
 
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Well I can tell you this: last year I entered a pale ale roughly along the lines of Sierra Nevada into a local competition. Both judges said it was oxidized. It was not. numerous club members and friends all agreed with me. MAYBE just those bottles oxidized but I doubt it.

I'm convinced they look at PA/IPA-ish beers with some color nowadays and immediately think it's oxidation.

In fact, pretty famously a few years ago, actual Sierra Nevada was deemed "not to style" in a competition.

The pale ale and IPA categories need a serious re-tooling because some of us still like the original versions. The new ones need their own categories.
 
WELL. . . . The very reason I first started brewing beer was because I could not reliably get whatn I wanted in a beer. I can buy Sierra Nevada every day, and Two Hearted as well - So old school is at my finger tips. If they disappear - I have and can make reasonoble facimilies. I rarely buy or bother with "new" styles anymore. Tootie Fruity Sludge beer ruined THAT for me some time ago. The couple of "New" or "Cold" items I tried were wholey underwhelming. But the concept was cool, so I am working on a variation to suit my personal tastes. I did have a couple of "Brut" IPA's when that was a thing, that were very good, but of course they went away in a hurry. I can get pretty close to them at home If i get a hankering.

The current state of the bottle shop is a little sad - too many "trendy" and not enough for drinking. The age of 8-10% everything and "cold" "Pastry" "Imperial" "Hazy" taking up all the domestic shelf space. I also see a LOT of them gathering dust! Cool thing is; Bunches of imports that used to move SLOWLY from the shelves now turn over quickly, and suddenly I can buy tasty classic imports with much less fear of getting an old stale skunky unit. One change alaways brings another!

And all said and done - I can generally cure all my beer angst with a good brew day or two! That is the whole point I think.
 
Regarding Sierra Nevada Pale Ale being outside the style guidelines for American Pale Ale, I’ve heard the same. It’s pretty crazy when the beer that epitomized the style for so long is somehow deemed to be no longer appropriate. As far as the crystal malt and oxidation thing, I’ve talked about this before and think about it quite often. What I think is going on is that people have been taught to associate those flavors with oxidation. Similarly with the way beers can darken from oxidation, I think people see hoppy beers that aren’t pale yellow and immediately their brain starts to look for faults. And when we assume there is a problem we will convince ourselves that it’s real. I definitely did, and even still do to some extent, struggle to enjoy hazy beers because to me for so long clear beer was a sign of high quality. But I also had to remind myself that if I can enjoy a Hefeweizen or a Belgian Witbier, then I should be ok with haze in other styles as well. I’m still not crazy about hazy ipa, but I’ve come to realize that its not the haze per se that’s the problem. It’s likely the high chlorides, the aggressive fruitiness, and the pithy hop burn that just doesn’t jibe with my tastebuds. Anyway, I still throw a handful of C60 in most of my hoppy beers and find that if I’m careful about my cold side processes then I don’t find any oxidative qualities. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve definitely oxidized my fair share of IPA’s in the past when I used to brew in glass carboys, and when dry hopping for 2 weeks was still the norm. But to me the way oxidized hops taste bears very little resemblance to the caramel and sherry like characteristics of some crystal malts.
 
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I had a hazy yesterday that was actually quite a nice one. Well balanced and nice. A surprise. Hops were obviously there, but also the malt. No yeast though, but wasn't missing in this case. But this is kind of a rare example I guess. Brewery was Brulo or something like that, I think it's polish. At least the L in the name was written in the polish way, meaning it gets pronounced like a w.

On the other hand, I really like Sierra Nevada PA, and I agree with OP. Isn't it always like this? Once a style/idea gets overly popular and dominating, it starts to be overdone, kind of killing itself and then being replaced by the next craze. Same thing in the music industry and basically everywhere else.
 
Miraculix said:
Once a style/idea gets overly popular and dominating, it starts to be overdone, kind of killing itself and then being replaced by the next craze. Same thing in the music industry and basically everywhere else.
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I think that 100% right. Incentives change in an overly saturated market. Priorities move toward mass appeal, novelty, and attention seeking.

Don’t get me wrong. I think a lot of good as come along as well in the past few years. The quality of hops and hop products has improved exponentially. I remember when people would scoff at the idea of Russian River using hop extract to bitter Pliny. Now even homebrewers are using these things. I know some aren’t, but I’m totally down with the GMO yeasts. I think coaxing interesting flavors out of beers in creative ways is a lot of fun. I think at the core of my frustration is when I feel as if the intention is to make beer taste as little like beer as possible. Because to me it’s like, what’s the point then? Make something else if that’s your goal.

It’s like if all of a sudden anywhere you went to get a burger they served the burger on a glazed doughnut instead of a bun. And the servers all say how people prefer it that way because the sweetness is more appealing to customers. As somebody who loves a good burger it would be hard not to become frustrated by that.
 
Airborneguy said:
Well I can tell you this: last year I entered a pale ale roughly along the lines of Sierra Nevada into a local competition. Both judges said it was oxidized. It was not. numerous club members and friends all agreed with me. MAYBE just those bottles oxidized but I doubt it.

I'm convinced they look at PA/IPA-ish beers with some color nowadays and immediately think it's oxidation.

In fact, pretty famously a few years ago, actual Sierra Nevada was deemed "not to style" in a competition.

The pale ale and IPA categories need a serious re-tooling because some of us still like the original versions. The new ones need their own categories.
Click to expand...

I don't want to derail the thread into a BJCP specific discussion, but the thing to realize is that the BJCP guidelines are not the old testament. The revisions track the primary trends in beer styles as they are typically being brewed. If the majority of breweries and homebrewers are morphing the Pale Ale style to use less caramel malts and more new world tropical hops, the guidelines are going to say that. It's not necessarily going to prohibit the classic characteristics, but widen the allowances and comment on the history.

The pale ale category is particularly interesting because more people are brewing hazy versions that are clearly a bit too dry/low ABV to fit in the Hazy IPA category but they are too NEIPA like to compete equally next to a SNPA. Some breweries call them Session Hazy IPA. They are not interesting enough to justify placement in the mixed style or experimental.
 
Bobby_M said:
I don't want to derail the thread into a BJCP specific discussion, but the thing to realize is that the BJCP guidelines are not the old testament. The revisions track the primary trends in beer styles as they are typically being brewed. If the majority of breweries and homebrewers are morphing the Pale Ale style to use less caramel malts and more new world tropical hops, the guidelines are going to say that. It's not necessarily going to prohibit the classic characteristics, but widen the allowances and comment on the history.

The pale ale category is particularly interesting because more people are brewing hazy versions that are clearly a bit too dry/low ABV to fit in the Hazy IPA category but they are too NEIPA like to compete equally next to a SNPA. Some breweries call them Session Hazy IPA. They are not interesting enough to justify placement in the mixed style or experimental.
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I think this is definitely relevant to the conversation. I definitely don't expect beer styles to be completely frozen in time. I've also been an advocate for creating new styles or sub-categories when something comes along that was born out of one style but no longer resembles it's predecessor. I'd be curious to find where that line is between just shifting the goal posts versus when it's better to just give something its own category. And if a beer like SNPA would fair better in the American Amber Ale category nowadays more so than American Pale Ale, that's ok with me. We've all heard stories like someone's Munich Dunkel coming out too bitter and then scoring 40+ points when entered as an Altbier in competition. Semantics do matter to me overall in that a beer's style name or the same used to market/sell said beer should give the consumer a pretty good idea of what they're getting. Most breweries now do a pretty good job of letting you know when an IPA is brewed in the Hazy/New England style as opposed to just slapping "IPA" on the label. And thats because hazies are such a far cry from classic IPA that it has to be differentiated. But now west coast IPA is also being made in a way that's so different from the classics.

If something is barely 4 SRM, 7.5% abv, dry hopped to high heaven, but bittered to just 35 IBU, is that an IPA?
 
I kind of bought this with some intention in regard to my post. I figured there’s no better time to discuss the evolution of ipa without a taste of a fresh example of where it came from. I will say I’ve learned a lot from trying this beer again. I stand by my opinion of bitterness overall, but I’ll admit that in recent years even my perception of it has changed. It’s very noticeable just how bitter this beer is when for the past few years my palate has become accustomed to a much softer profile

Another thing I’ve found that I find somewhat amusing is how many things that I’ve said were positive qualities of IPA in the past, are now referred to negatively. The term “resinous” seems to have a negative connotation these days. But to me that was always a sign of quality. In this beer in particular, Centennial hops are featured prominently. Somebody recently said in a podcast how much Centennial on the hot side gives a “pencil shavings” quality. And funnily enough, I couldn’t agree more. Haha! But I also love it! Another thing with Centennial I’ve always loved is how it contributes a “tea-like” quality that I love. Apparently now that’s also a bad thing. I can see how some find “tea like” as astringent, whereas I find tea-like to be mostly floral.

Fruit is there too. There are definitely hints of citrus rind/zest present. But they exist as a means of lifting up all the other flavors.

It reminds me of an earlier post comparing the change in IPA to changes we see in music. I think we are in the auto tune age of ipa, if auto tune was fruit flavors. I was raised in the era of thinking auto tune was a tool you use to make things sound professional. You weren’t supposed to hear it or notice it was used. It was a subtle effect to make things sound more legit. Nowadays it’s a feature. Artists use it unabashedly. I have a hard time not just assuming their music is bad as soon as I hear it. It’s a clear bias, I know. But at the same time I just wanna say “learn how to sing, or find another profession”.
 

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Bobby_M said:
All of Stone's beers are on my revisit list because I haven't tried one in over 10 years. I HAVE had DFH60 and Laganitas in the last few weeks and both are great.
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Stone unfortunately has discontinued practically all of their original lineup at this point. Other than Arrogant Bastard I’m not sure what’s still around, at least in its original form. This Ruination was one of their limited throwback re-brews. From my understanding they’ll be re-brewing batches of Sublimely Self Righteous, and Double Bastard this year as well. Both of which are no longer brewed on any sort of regular nor seasonal basis.

I’ve been really wanting to jump back into some DFH beers recently. A shop near me recently got some 60min and 90min. I must try them again as it’s admittedly been years. I still look through the old Extreme Brewing book from time to time. It makes me both remember how much home brewing is about trying new things and bucking tradition, but at the same time respecting what things were supposed to taste like. Both objectively and subjectively.

I’ve never been the sort of traditionalist that gets hung up on process. If you can meet the same end with a new process and perhaps even simplify things, then good on you. But when people change the end goal entirely and still wanna call it something it no longer is, that just doesn’t make sense to me I guess.
 
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Miraculix said:
I had a hazy yesterday that was actually quite a nice one. Well balanced and nice. A surprise. Hops were obviously there, but also the malt. No yeast though, but wasn't missing in this case. But this is kind of a rare example I guess. Brewery was Brulo or something like that, I think it's polish. At least the L in the name was written in the polish way, meaning it gets pronounced like a w.
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Was is BRLO Blurry Vision?
Had it last week when I was in Berlin, quite nice.
It's actually a German brewery from Berlin.
They have a gastro pub in the Chalottenburg area of the city.

List of beers here, the Pale Ale and IPA are also quite good; like the old classic APA and AIPAs.
I unfortunately didn't get a change to try the German IPA with Comet, Hüll Melon and Polaris.

https://www.brlo.de/house-of-brewing/biere




​

 
Bobby_M said:
All of Stone's beers are on my revisit list because I haven't tried one in over 10 years. I HAVE had DFH60 and Laganitas in the last few weeks and both are great.
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I was a huge fan of Lagunitas IPA until they got bought out by Heineken (I think it was them anyway) and to me the taste changed. Same thing with Racer 5. It used to be my go to, but I bought a six pack the other day and something just tasted off. Now, with that said, Racer 7 is a very good beer. My enjoyment of the IPA is starting to subside a bit so I am looking for a new style to be my go to.
 
Shenanigans said:
Was is BRLO Blurry Vision?
Had it last week when I was in Berlin, quite nice.
It's actually a German brewery from Berlin.
They have a gastro pub in the Chalottenburg area of the city.

List of beers here, the Pale Ale and IPA are also quite good; like the old classic APA and AIPAs.
I unfortunately didn't get a change to try the German IPA with Comet, Hüll Melon and Polaris.

https://www.brlo.de/house-of-brewing/biere




​

Click to expand...
Yes that was the one! They got it here in my local supermarket in Bremen. I think the Polish writing is because of a Polish guy being the owner. Glad that you liked it! One of the very rare examples of (probably not really German) Germans who know how to brew non-German styles.
 
Pehlman17 said:
Stone unfortunately has discontinued practically all of their original lineup at this point. Other than Arrogant Bastard I’m not sure what’s still around, at least in its original form. This Ruination was one of their limited throwback re-brews. From my understanding they’ll be re-brewing batches of Sublimely Self Righteous, and Double Bastard this year as well. Both of which are no longer brewed on any sort of regular nor seasonal basis.

I’ve been really wanting to jump back into some DFH beers recently. A shop near me recently got some 60min and 90min. I must try them again as it’s admittedly been years. I still look through the old Extreme Brewing book from time to time. It makes me both remember how much home brewing is about trying new things and bucking tradition, but at the same time respecting what things were supposed to taste like. Both objectively and subjectively.

I’ve never been the sort of traditionalist that gets hung up on process. If you can meet the same end with a new process and perhaps even simplify things, then good on you. But when people change the end goal entirely and still wanna call it something it no longer is, that just doesn’t make sense to me I guess.
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Stone's IPAs were always my gold standard. I've never had anything more piney than an arrogant bastard I had once. It remains an apocryphal memory for me. I'll chase that pine forever.

Stone IPA is what I consider the standard for west coast IPA.
 
passedpawn said:
Stone's IPAs were always my gold standard. I've never had anything more piney than an arrogant bastard I had once. It remains an apocryphal memory for me. I'll chase that pine forever.

Stone IPA is what I consider the standard for west coast IPA.
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I threw up minutes after this picture was taken (2009, Alaska). Arrogant Bastard is NOT meant to be drunk from the bottle!

EDIT: It's actually Double Bastard. Even worse!
 

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The Voodoo brand from New Belgium was one that I used to love. Especially the classic yellow label Voodoo Ranger. I even emailed the brewery a few years back with questions about the recipe because it had such a unique and distinct flavor to it. To the point where when they said it was brewed with a Chico variant, I almost didn’t believe them. It had something to it that stuck out as so interesting and unique. This must have been about 3 years ago admittedly. I pick one up today because it’s been a while. I was thinking about a friend of mine who might love this because he’s been feeling similar to me about modern IPA lately. Anyway, long story short, I pick one up today. A fairly fresh can, packaged in February. And it just tasted like all the rest. Fruity hops with nothing else. Whatever unique quality I used to find in this beer is nowhere to be found. I understand it could be me, but the flavor I recall from this beer was so distinct.

It’s funny, I had been taking a break from booze overall the last few weeks. Drinking a handful of Non-Alcoholic beers. I find modern IPA really does well in that format. All hops, no bitterness, no soul.
 
I feel like I’m starting to understand the old “fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you” saying.

You’ve got the say wrong
Its
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
 
Airborneguy said:
I threw up minutes after this picture was taken (2009, Alaska). Arrogant Bastard is NOT meant to be drunk from the bottle!

EDIT: It's actually Double Bastard. Even worse!
Click to expand...
Dude, we're kin. I brought 3 bombers of Double Bastard to my wife's friend's birthday party when I first really got into craft beer. I thought people would be interested in sharing. Nope.. not a single taker. I drank all 66 ounces myself out of spite and launched it off the porch.
 
Bobby_M said:
Dude, we're kin. I brought 3 bombers of Double Bastard to my wife's friend's birthday party when I first really got into craft beer. I thought people would be interested in sharing. Nope.. not a single taker. I drank all 66 ounces myself out of spite and launched it off the porch.
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Jesus 3?!?

That moment was so memorable for me that whenever it comes up it only takes me minutes to find the picture.

I was fishing with two Army buddies on Kodiak Island. One is a fellow homebrewer. When he saw the AB in the Coast Guard class 6 he was like a schoolgirl. I hated it!
 
Airborneguy said:
Jesus 3?!?

That moment was so memorable for me that whenever it comes up it only takes me minutes to find the picture.

I was fishing with two Army buddies on Kodiak Island. One is a fellow homebrewer. When he saw the AB in the Coast Guard class 6 he was like a schoolgirl. I hated it!
Click to expand...
Not like a chug contest, but over the course of like 3 hours. One bite of birthday cake and.
 
Bobby_M said:
Dude, we're kin. I brought 3 bombers of Double Bastard to my wife's friend's birthday party when I first really got into craft beer. I thought people would be interested in sharing. Nope.. not a single taker. I drank all 66 ounces myself out of spite and launched it off the porch.
Click to expand...

Double Bastard o_O

Sorry to go off topic but does anyone have a recipe for that?
I was going to brew a normal one soon based on the long recipe thread on here.
I guess I could just keep the same ratios and bump up the OG and add more hops?
WLP007 might crap out at 11% so maybe a different yeast like WLP099, which I have a tube of here.

1711011471958.png
 
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Cheshire Cat said:
I feel like I’m starting to understand the old “fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you” saying.

You’ve got the say wrong
Its
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
Click to expand...
Or as someone said some 20 years ago,
"Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me ... can't get fooled again."
 
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