Witherby
Well-Known Member
Did you neutralize the acid at any point?
English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?
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Colindo
Well-Known Member
Nope, though I find the concept interesting for the part before the long boil. I guess you would end up with more Belgian flavours, since those guys use alkaline syrups.
Witherby
Well-Known Member
Currant and plum sounds really nice to me in a dark mild.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
Only used it once so far, in a clone for Young's Winter Warmer, but later got the YSM composition from a former Young's brewer. Was really fruity and tasty, but apparently not close to the original. I never had the original, since I only visit the UK in summer, so for me it was great.
I know! And this is exactly why I said I'm not arguing, ich argumentiere nicht!
I'm literally just quoting what I remember, because I cannot find the sources anymore. .... And also because I'm sick and tired of arguing in general.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
Maybe I've been in science for too long, but I would actually prefer not to say anything than to say something without giving the source :-/
Yeah, you've been in science for too long. In my world, personal experience from a person who knows what he's talking about is worth more than any quote with a source of a person that I don't know. If I know what I'm talking about or not lies obviously in the eye of the beholder.
The American sugar you would want for reference would be turbinado. That's the closest thing for me here in the states although I could probably source demerara.
Light passing through a sugar solution undergoes angular refraction. To measure the angle of refraction, light is first passed through a polarizing filter so the actual rotation can be measured on exit. Invert sugar solution refracts light opposite to sucrose solution, hence why the product is called "invert sugar".
Witherby
Well-Known Member
I’ve been thinking about Ron’s description of tasting #3 invert when he was at Fuller’s back in 2011 helping them with the Past Masters series:
“Next to be tasted is No. 3 invert sugar. There's dark fruit, dates, caramel, raisins. It's as dark as I'd expected. But more flavourful. Why has brewing sugar gone out of fashion? "It's not sexy," Derek says. It is to me.”
barclayperkins.blogspot.com
“Next to be tasted is No. 3 invert sugar. There's dark fruit, dates, caramel, raisins. It's as dark as I'd expected. But more flavourful. Why has brewing sugar gone out of fashion? "It's not sexy," Derek says. It is to me.”
BS brewing
I'm lucky. Very lucky,. Every now and then I get to act out my brewing fantasies in a real brewery, in the company of real brewers. In Febru...
And talking about personal experience, I've got about twenty jars in different shades of colour in my basement that look almost identical to yours. I can also confirm your taste description. All done with heating only, no molasses or really dark sugars.
The problem is, the taste seems not to translate directly into the beer.
When I use an invert made with the method that uses molasses to get the colour, I got a much bigger flavour impact in the beer then with the other invert coloured via heating only. It also reminds me more of the stuff I know from English pubs.
I've made a dark mild with a very dark invert, the plum and raisin, bit burnt sugar version I got from heating only. Couldn't find it in the final beer.
Made a bitter with a medium coloured molasses coloured invert and it was clearly there.
The problem is, the taste seems not to translate directly into the beer.
When I use an invert made with the method that uses molasses to get the colour, I got a much bigger flavour impact in the beer then with the other invert coloured via heating only. It also reminds me more of the stuff I know from English pubs.
I've made a dark mild with a very dark invert, the plum and raisin, bit burnt sugar version I got from heating only. Couldn't find it in the final beer.
Made a bitter with a medium coloured molasses coloured invert and it was clearly there.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
@Miraculix I would be interested in any British pub examples you could name? I know of no beer nowadays that is being brewed with invert sugar and I did not drink beer in the UK before 2014. I would also wonder how you would differentiate from the beers using invert and the beers using molasses in their "grain bill". Should all taste quite similar then, right?
I did taste my invert in the beer, at around 20% it was quite striking.
@Witherby Ron might have tried the Ragus version, which if described correctly above might have been made with molasses.
I did taste my invert in the beer, at around 20% it was quite striking.
@Witherby Ron might have tried the Ragus version, which if described correctly above might have been made with molasses.
Here's an interesting write up from Ron in 2009 just thought I'd post it.
Barclay link
There's definitely no harm in darkening the sugar for more color but I definitely think a more unrefined sugar (which contains more molasses) like demerara or turbinado is key. At the end of the day it's an attempt to somewhat mimic what breweries were doing which we can't anyway but we can get something good at least in my opinion.
Edit: Maybe Ron can put in his two cents lol @patto1ro on this ring around the rosy.
Barclay link
There's definitely no harm in darkening the sugar for more color but I definitely think a more unrefined sugar (which contains more molasses) like demerara or turbinado is key. At the end of the day it's an attempt to somewhat mimic what breweries were doing which we can't anyway but we can get something good at least in my opinion.
Edit: Maybe Ron can put in his two cents lol @patto1ro on this ring around the rosy.
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Colindo
Well-Known Member
@hout17 I'm not an expert on sugar by any means, but to me demerara sugar sounds as if it would contain zero molasses. Molasses is separated first to get demerara, then the demerara is refined further for white sugar.
I'm not familiar with the term turbinado, to be honest.
Ron's description would be really useful if anyone could get the exact composition of the sugars in question. My demerara sugar, called "Rohrohrzucker" in Germany, says to be 100% carbohydrates. So there is not enough left for the "3% organic matter" that Ron's source says.
Edit: Unsurprisingly, I wasn't correct:
I'm not familiar with the term turbinado, to be honest.
Ron's description would be really useful if anyone could get the exact composition of the sugars in question. My demerara sugar, called "Rohrohrzucker" in Germany, says to be 100% carbohydrates. So there is not enough left for the "3% organic matter" that Ron's source says.
Edit: Unsurprisingly, I wasn't correct:
So it's almost free of molasses, but not quite. Including the bag of sugar standing before me.
Molasses is what gives it the darker color. That is the difference it's less refined. More refined sugars don't contain molasses.
Don't ask me about names. I'm living in Germany now again for over three years, all the names have been deleted from the ram. All I can say is that the molasses invert tasted more like the real deal that I remember than the other. It brought the little factor that I was missing. Confirmation bias can be almost neglected, I was quite sceptical myself before trying. But I also made great beers with the heated version. Both can be great. But molasses invert tastes more like the little brewery cask ales I remember.
And regarding molasses in beer and the distinction, no idea, but I was thinking the same when making it.
Here's another interesting write up from Ron in 2010 on sugar. Fun to read.
Aaaaaand here we go, next version, heating the sugar together with YEAST to get the invertase enzymes out of the dying cells. It does no get boring, does it?
Note to myself: Next invert sugar will be done with a pack of bakers yeast!
Lol it doesn't! The rabbit hole is incredibly deep especially over on Jim's Beer Kit and on the homebrew UK forum (hbt UK). Peebee is in Alice in Wonderland on both of those forums!
Also I highly recommend Ron's Mild Plus, AK, and Homebrewers Guide to Vintage beer books. Great stories, history, and some damn good recipes from way back.
I got them, except the guide to vintage beer.
bellhp
Well-Known Member
Yes , this morning I was told , just make your own invert ... it's easy !
Keep going guy's I'm soaking it in.
Erik the Anglophile
Well-Known Member
Well the process(es) itself is easy, the hard part is deciding wich one you wish to adhere to...
Colindo
Well-Known Member
I got the guide for Christmas. It is quite distinct from the other books since it's much more than just his blog posts. Also it has a great layout and you get lots of colours to guide you through the text. Highly recommended.
noooo.... now I need to buy it. What you are describing is what I was missing in his other books... I already got 3 or 4 of them.
I bottle my beer as well, and do it on the dishwasher door so there is no mess.Packaging - just wanted to pass on a tip (possibly).
I’ve been brewing for a pretty long time and started bottle conditioning, went to kegging and even cask beer with an engine. I’m now back to bottle conditioning and will probably be staying there.
I brew 80% British style and 15% Belgian styles - and have always preferred bottle conditioned beers, but the time spent bottling got to be too much.
I’ve finally streamlined it with brewing 2.5 gallons at a time, 22oz bottles, carbonation drops, primary fermentor with spout (I use an SS Brewbucket)
So 2.5 gallons will give me an exact twelve 22oz bottles which is plenty.
Primary for 1.5-2 weeks, sanitize bottles + add 1 carb drop, hook up bottle wand direct to fermenter, bottle then cap. Let sit 2 weeks, right into fridge and drinking.
1 carb drop gives you a really nice low carbonation for British styles. I use 1 in 33cl bottles for my Belgian beers.
I can now bottle in maybe 30 mins and it’s not so much of a chore.
Hope someone might pick up a few tips.
Erik the Anglophile
Well-Known Member
The Imperial Stout is in secondary with about 9g of boiled oak cubes, 12g of Styrian Bobek and 1.5 shot glass of Brett'd stock ale. Guesstimated amount of beer in carboy is ~12L.
I sucked in a bit of air through the airlock when pouring some of the stock ale to inocculate the stout, but for the last 2 weeks it has been relatively lively producing co2 so I am not overly worried about it.
This bad boy is gonna be strong when finished.
I sucked in a bit of air through the airlock when pouring some of the stock ale to inocculate the stout, but for the last 2 weeks it has been relatively lively producing co2 so I am not overly worried about it.
This bad boy is gonna be strong when finished.
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Brett takes care of the little additional co2 anyway, all good!
Maybe boiling the oak before adding is a good idea. I have had a mead yeasterday which was on oak for a few weeks and aged 4 years and it still is a dumper. But the oak was not boiled.
Erik the Anglophile
Well-Known Member
As per our previous discussion, I find it hard to believe even Memel oak would leave no flavour and/or mouthfeel trace at all behind if cask aged for 1year+, so I went low on the dose and boiled it to keep the contributions from it as subtle as possible.
And it kills any potential nasties...
And it kills any potential nasties...
Colindo
Well-Known Member
Ron just figured out today that apparently it was normal for wooden vats to be lined, not unlined as he thought before Being slow
A historian has found a loose thread that needs exploring. He hasn't yet overturned his prior understanding.
In the last few days, he's also found evidence of Truman mixing gyle wort's before and after fermentation!
Colindo
Well-Known Member
This is not different from what I said, but thanks for underlining that.
This is not something he found in the last few days! He had the Truman records for years and had done rough sighting through them a long time ago. He only showed it to his readers recently.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
By the way, the line that puzzled him because he read "is unlined [...] must," is something I read to "is inclined to must", so maybe it is all much ado about nothing. Including my post # 4,269 
I had thought all these Truman docs were something he's had for years but never dug into. Maybe I read that wrong.
By the way, the line that puzzled him because he read "is unlined [...] must," is something I read to "is inclined to must", so maybe it is all much ado about nothing. Including my post # 4,269
I'm no expert in 19th century handwriting, but I'd agree.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
I will do so. After this first cup of coffee!
Colindo
Well-Known Member
For me it's time for my first beer, since it is just about 4pm here 
Might record a tasting video comparing my 1901 Whitbread KK with the 1886 Barclay Perkins Hogshead Porter. Have been waiting to do the tasting video after 5 months in the keg with dry-hop, but without Brett. Some bottles were bretted and will be tasted a few more months in.
Might record a tasting video comparing my 1901 Whitbread KK with the 1886 Barclay Perkins Hogshead Porter. Have been waiting to do the tasting video after 5 months in the keg with dry-hop, but without Brett. Some bottles were bretted and will be tasted a few more months in.
By the way, the line that puzzled him because he read "is unlined [...] must," is something I read to "is inclined to must", so maybe it is all much ado about nothing. Including my post # 4,269
As you point out, it turns out the loose thread was just a bit of fluff.
DuncB
Well-Known Member
Is it worth checking the pH and if so are we aiming for neutral?
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