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Am i maximizing the potential of these hops?

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Rik van den berg

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I brewed a NE (or double) IPA that came out really good. This one was done with partial mash and extract and was the 4th beer i brewed. This was also the first beer i brewed with my own hop bill. I'd like to try this one again with my own all grain bill and using the lessons i learnt but because the flavors/aromas/bitterness was so good i'd like to use the same hop bill. I just want to get some expert opinion on if i am not losing awesome aromas by adding certain hops at the 'wrong' times or whatever. I use pellets:

1.5oz Amarillo @ First Wort
1.5oz Amarillo @ First Boil
1oz Citra Whirlpool @ 175F
1oz Galaxy Whirlpool @ 175F
1oz Mosaic Whirlpool @ 175F

Dryhop after 10 days in primary:
3 oz Citra
1 oz Galaxy
1 oz Mosaic

I had to double check if this is really what I did but that's what the notes said.. Seems kind of weird to me but i remember it being really good.

So what do y'all think? Any comments/suggestions??

Thanks!!
 

CrimsonYeti

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Hard to tell completely without your grain bill. But just a quick glance you will be close to or over 100ibu basedon the FWH and 60min addition. Which will take you away from being an NEIPA. IMHO if you want that style save most of the Amarillo for a late addition. Otherwise you are just going to have a double ipa.
 

mirthfuldragon

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Using Amarillo at first wort and first boil is sadness. Magnum or CTZ (Columbus, Tomahawk, Zeus) is typical because they are cheaper and less distinctive. Amarillo's citrus is going to get lost in all that boil time.

Very generally speaking, the longer hops boil, the more bitterness is extracted and the less distinctive the characteristics. I would move the amarillo in with the whirlpool/hopstand additions and go with magnum or CTZ to bitter based on however many IBU you want. Also, I don't see a point in first wort hops and first boil hops. I usually FWH because it is easier when moving around the garage to just dump it in in the beginning.

In my (limited) experience, the bitterness extracted from whirlpool additions is pretty minimal, so I would basically discount the whirlpool hops from IBU calculations.
 

bleme

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In my (limited) experience, the bitterness extracted from whirlpool additions is pretty minimal, so I would basically discount the whirlpool hops from IBU calculations.
I have done a couple brews with 100% whirlpool hops and there is definitely significant bitterness being extracted. BeerSmith predicted the last one to be about 50 IBU's and I'd say it turned out pretty close to that.

A very important detail that the OP left out is how long he is whirlpooling.
 
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Rik van den berg

Rik van den berg

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Hard to tell completely without your grain bill. But just a quick glance you will be close to or over 100ibu basedon the FWH and 60min addition. Which will take you away from being an NEIPA. IMHO if you want that style save most of the Amarillo for a late addition. Otherwise you are just going to have a double ipa.
For my malt bill I am thinking of doing:
8lbs American Pale 2 row
6lbs Carapils
 

stz

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Amarillo isn't a bittering hop. For the sake of stubborn pedantry all hops are duel purpose if you want, but it is great as an aroma hop, is quite expensive and it isn't even that high alpha. I have totally used aroma hops to bitter with before when home brewing, but only when they are used later in the recipe, the AA is appropriate and it makes sense to not buy/open different hops. I definitely take bittering from flame out additions into consideration when recipe planning depending on length and temperature of steep and definitely whirlpool additions again depending on length and temperature of steep.

Calculating IBU's is a pointless exercise if you want accurate measurements of IBU's. It is however VERY worthwhile if you follow the same methodology each time to teach you how your system performs and what you need to do to adjust the bitterness of a beer. I usually the factor for a 5 minute boil for a flame out addition with a 30 minute hop stand (standard transfer) and I use 25% of that figure for an addition during whirlpool 75C-80C again for 30 minutes.
 
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Rik van den berg

Rik van den berg

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Can someone suggest a good schedule for these hops? I guess I can add a ‘non aroma’ buttering hop early?
 

Upthewazzu

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For a NEIPA skip the bittering hop altogether. If you can't get passed not using any hops in the boil, just throw the Amarillo in with 1min remaining.
 
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Rik van den berg

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How many ounces of hops did you use for whirlpool and how much for dryhop?

Did my malt bill look ok?

Thanks!
 

bleme

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How many ounces of hops did you use for whirlpool and how much for dryhop?

Did my malt bill look ok?
I'm not at home so working from memory but I think it was 1oz chinook, 3oz centennial, 1oz belma whirlpool.
1oz citra, 1oz centennial dry-hop.
It was a complete experiment that I called Oxymoron NEBIPA (that B is for Black) but I love the way it turned out.

Your hop selection looks great. I'd just move the Amarillo to whirlpool with the others and adjust the whirlpool time to get the bitterness you want.

I couldn't tell you the last time I used biscuit. If I have, it would have been in a kit. It might be fine.

I sure wouldn't use 6 lbs of Carapils - that shouldn't be more than 5% of your total.
 

CrimsonYeti

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Using Amarillo at first wort and first boil is sadness. Magnum or CTZ (Columbus, Tomahawk, Zeus) is typical because they are cheaper and less distinctive. Amarillo's citrus is going to get lost in all that boil time.

Very generally speaking, the longer hops boil, the more bitterness is extracted and the less distinctive the characteristics. I would move the amarillo in with the whirlpool/hopstand additions and go with magnum or CTZ to bitter based on however many IBU you want. Also, I don't see a point in first wort hops and first boil hops. I usually FWH because it is easier when moving around the garage to just dump it in in the beginning.

In my (limited) experience, the bitterness extracted from whirlpool additions is pretty minimal, so I would basically discount the whirlpool hops from IBU calculations.
For my malt bill I am thinking of doing:
8lbs American Pale 2 row
6lbs Carapils
2 row is all good. But 6lbs of carapils won't do much for you. Carapils lends no flavor really or color. Just head retention. If you are doin 5 gal batches bump up to 10lbs 2row and pick a caramel or crystal malt to help color or flavor. Those malts being under 10% of the grain bill. Then maybe .5lbs of carapils to help head retention. Just my 2 cents.
 
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Rik van den berg

Rik van den berg

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2 row is all good. But 6lbs of carapils won't do much for you. Carapils lends no flavor really or color. Just head retention. If you are doin 5 gal batches bump up to 10lbs 2row and pick a caramel or crystal malt to help color or flavor. Those malts being under 10% of the grain bill. Then maybe .5lbs of carapils to help head retention. Just my 2 cents.
I have just one all grain batch under my belt, A pilsner (safe grain bill!). So I have everything to learn still and I’ll take the carapils statemtnt to heart.

Thanks!
 
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Rik van den berg

Rik van den berg

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My reply looked like 5lbs of carapils......i mean 1/2lb.
Yeah I understood what you mean lol

How does this sound:
11lbs Pale 2row
0.5 lbs caramel/crystal
1.5lbs red wheat (for color?)

I want 13 oz of hops and 13 lbs of grains.. I’m calling it “Lucky number 13”
 

bleme

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Yeah I understood what you mean lol

How does this sound:
11lbs Pale 2row
0.5 lbs caramel/crystal
1.5lbs red wheat (for color?)

I want 13 oz of hops and 13 lbs of grains.. I’m calling it “Lucky number 13”
That one looks a lot better. The wheat won't give you any color but it will give it a nice body. The crystal will give you all the color you want.
 
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Rik van den berg

Rik van den berg

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That one looks a lot better. The wheat won't give you any color but it will give it a nice body. The crystal will give you all the color you want.
sweet, thanks!

So this is what i have planned now:

5 gallon batch

Grain bill:
11lbs Pale 2row
0.5 lbs caramel/crystal
1.5lbs wheat

1oz Citra - Boil 30Min

1oz each of Amarillo, Citra, Galaxy, Mosaic - Whirlpool for 30min

2oz each of Amarillo, Citra, Galaxy, Mosaic - Dry hop at 7 days (or 10 depending how crazy the fermentation still is at day 7)

11.5 grams of Safale US-05 dry yeast
 
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Rik van den berg

Rik van den berg

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I changed it again:

Grain bill:
9.25lbs Pale 2 row
2lbs UK Golden Promise
1lb flaked wheat
12oz flaked oats
 
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