Hopping a NEIPA with Citra/Mosaic/Nectaron

[RyPA]

I'm prepping to brew a 6 gallon batch of a 5.5-6.0 abv NEIPA and am looking for advice on my hop schedule.

It's my first time using Nectaron and am hoping to not muddy it too much with the Citra and Mosaic. Should I drop the Citra or Mosaic entirely, or will the slightly higher use of Nectaron allow it to make its presence known?

0.25oz - Columbus lupomax - FWH
1oz : 1oz : 2oz - Citra/Mosaic/Nectaron @ 170F WP
1oz : 1oz : 2oz - Citra/Mosaic/Nectaron DH

I also have the below on hand if anyone has suggestions on a combo to try:
Amarillo
Galaxy
Simcoe
Centennial
El Dorado
Vic Secret

Thanks

 

[sibelman]

I found my first Nectaron™ dry hop (with Imperial Mangosteeni yeast and quite warm fermentation) to be quite subtle and easily overwhelmed by the bitterness from boil and/or whirlpool hops. To best showcase the Nectaron™ I'd keep it simple and minimize all other hopping.

 

[AlexKay]

I like the combination of Citra with Nectaron at 1:2 proportions. If you wanted to add the Mosaic in there, I'd probably go 0.5:0.5:2.

 

[day_trippr]

Nectaron with Citra and Mosaic appears to be a complementary combination...

Cheers!

 

[Bobby_M]

I like Beermaverick a lot, or at least what it's trying to accomplish, but the lack of "Berry" and "Diesel Fumes" for Mosaic has me suspect.

 

[day_trippr]

I've used a couple of pounds of Mosaic pellets each year of brewing neipas over the last ~four years. I've read that some have gotten a diesel fuel character out of Mosaic, but best as I can recall I never have, and I have two beers on tap right now brewed with Mosaic and neither of them show that character. I've also read that it is a terroir thing so likely highly variable. I may just be lucky.

Meanwhile...the comparative character amplitudes shown in the plots leaves me wondering why Nectaron was perceived to be a bit weak in the character expression department. Seems like it should compete pretty well. Then again, perhaps variability is at the heart of the disconnect...

Cheers!

 

[RyPA]

@day_trippr, how many Oz do you typically WP and DH with in a 6gal / ~6abv Neipa batch. Around a year ago I cut back my hopping as my beers were picking up too much bitterness but am now wondering if I dialed it back too much

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1252618/citra-mosaic-nectaron-neipa

 

[day_trippr]

[edit] Noticed I forgot to add the calculated bitterness numbers. My bad. All better now Used Tinseth calc from BS3.

I do 10 gallon batches split between a pair of carboys. Here are the hop schedules for a few of my neipa recipes:

Recipe 1: Chinook 1oz @60, Citra/El Dorado/Mosaic 1oz ea @5, Citra/El Dorado/Mosaic 2oz ea WP 20min @170°F, Citra/El Dorado/Mosaic 4oz ea DH for 2 days @50°F after soft crash [61 IBUs]

Recipe 2: Columbus 1oz @60, Amarillo/Chinook/Galaxy/Nugget 1oz ea @5, Amarillo/Chinook/Galaxy 2oz ea WP 20min @170°F, Amarillo/Chinook/Galaxy 4oz ea DH for 2 days @50°F after soft crash [68 IBUs]

Recipe 3: Columbus 1oz @60, Citra/Mosaic/Simcoe 1oz ea @5, Citra/Mosaic/Simcoe 2oz ea WP 20min @170°F, Citra/Mosaic/Simcoe 4oz ea DH for 2 days @50°F after soft crash [58 IBUs]

Recipe 4: Chinook 1oz @60, Amarillo 2oz @5, Azacca/Idaho7/Strata 2oz ea WP 20min @170°F, Azacca/Idaho7/Strata 4oz ea DH for 2 days @50°F after soft crash [44 IBUs]

Recipe 5: Chinook 1oz @60, Citra 2oz @15, Citra 2oz @10, Citra 2oz @5, Citra 4oz WP @170, Citra 8oz DH for 2 days @50°F after soft crash (Zombie Dust clone-ish)... [56 IBUs]

Cheers!

 

[RyPA]

@day_trippr so it looks like your are using more than I'm planning assuming an equal ratio stands when moving from 5 to 10g.
Wondering if I should push it to 10-12oz, just want to avoid getting the harshness that I've experienced in the past.

I ferment and serve in a 6g Torpedo. My dry hops go into the keg when I put it in the fridge and put it on co2.

 

[day_trippr]

I used to "keg hop" back in the olden times when most hops sold at retail were whole cones, and the big time juicy hop strains were years in the future. Plus I was growing a crazy amount of Cascade, Centennial and Chinook and needed ways to actually use them. A muslin bag with a few ounces of Cascade added to a chilled keg added a nice citrus kick and could be left in to the last pour with no grassy character. Never tried that with pellets, just assumed that'd be a crazy pita. And now whole cones are almost extinct at retail - YVH has just 9 strains available today.

As I noted I've been following the "soft crash, then cool and short dry hop" Scott Janish approach which may ease off on the polyphenols. I do enjoy strains like Chinook and Galaxy which some folks feel are just plain harsh. I chalk it up to "lupulin shift" and drinking home brew loaded with home grown hops...

Cheers!

 

[RyPA]

I used to "keg hop" back in the olden times when most hops sold at retail were whole cones, and the big time juicy hop strains were years in the future. Plus I was growing a crazy amount of Cascade, Centennial and Chinook and needed ways to actually use them. A muslin bag with a few ounces of Cascade added to a chilled keg added a nice citrus kick and could be left in to the last pour with no grassy character. Never tried that with pellets, just assumed that'd be a crazy pita. And now whole cones are almost extinct at retail - YVH has just 9 strains available today.

As I noted I've been following the "soft crash, then cool and short dry hop" Scott Janish approach which may ease off on the polyphenols. I do enjoy strains like Chinook and Galaxy which some folks feel are just plain harsh. I chalk it up to "lupulin shift" and drinking home brew loaded with home grown hops...

Cheers!

I've had good luck with keg dry hopping -- initially I think I was over hopping which was giving a hop burn sensation in the finished beer. Once I dialed back the dry hop additions it mellowed out and I received many compliments from my buddies. Some cannot believe my homebrew is homebrew, which is a nice compliment. I'm now considering increasing the additions slightly to see if I can get improvement without bringing back the hop burn. All of my pellet hop additions (FWH, WP, DH) go in commando and the beer stays tasting great with no grassiness for the duration of the keg.

I do want to grow hops at some point, just need to do more research to see what strains will thrive in northeast U.S.

 

[BongoYodeler]

I do want to grow hops at some point, just need to do more research to see what strains will thrive in northeast U.S.

Cascade hops are among the most hardy and easiest to grow. Granted, I'm in SoCal-ish not the northeast, but here's my first year Cascade plants which are over 20ft tall and already producing cones.

 

[RyPA]

@BongoYodeler awesome, thanks for sharing. How long does it typically take from rhizome to usable cones?

 

[BongoYodeler]

@BongoYodeler awesome, thanks for sharing. How long does it typically take from rhizome to usable cones?

These were planted mid-April here. We also planted Centennial, CTZ, and Chinook. All seem to be growing but only the Cascade and CTZ have produced cones this year. We'll likely be harvesting the Cascade within the next couple weeks or so. The CTZ maybe 2-4 weeks after that.You'd need to wait until after the last frost to plant your rhizomes. I didn't grow hops when I lived in the northeast so I'm not sure how long they'd take there, but I'd guess you'd be harvesting in September or so. Don't expect much the first year, maybe even the second, but after that...watch out you could end up up with a lot of cones.

 

[day_trippr]

This is from my last of seven years growing Cascade, Chinook and Centennial (and a little Fuggles) when I ended up with 12 pounds of dried and vacuum bagged cones. I actually had enough cones to brew a batch the first year and even more the second but the third year and beyond were insanely productive...

Cheers!

 

[RyPA]

Do you guys think I am under hopping this recipe? I have 8oz of Nectaron and was hoping to only use half so I can brew something else with it, but at the same time I want to be able to taste it and am considering upping the additions. I always struggle with the amount of hops to use in a batch

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1252618/citra-mosaic-nectaron-neipa

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Nectaron with Citra and Mosaic appears to be a complementary combination...

View attachment 826828


Cheers!

What website or software package did this come from?

 

[RyPA]

What website or software package did this come from?

BeerMaverick

https://beermaverick.com/hops/hop-comparison-tool/

 

[day_trippr]

Yup. Very cool resource

 

[RyPA]

I brewed this batch today as advertised, I'll report back on it in a few days.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

BeerMaverick

https://beermaverick.com/hops/hop-comparison-tool/

thx

 

[RyPA]

The beer came out good, but it tastes like all of my other NEIPA's. Maybe a subtle difference but nothing that jumps out making me want to use this hop combo again. Could also be under-hopped, but not sure. It's around 5% ABV and I used 0.5oz/0.5oz/2oz (Citra/Mosaic/Nectaron) in the WP, then dry hopped the same combo 1oz/1oz/2oz.

I'm not sure what my next step is to make my beers another level better. My last huge improvement was keeping it O2 free, but not sure what to do now. Maybe temp control and different yeasts? For all of my NEIPA's I use Voss kveik.

 

[BongoYodeler]

I'm off the Voss train. Just don't like the overripe orange flavor I always seem to get with it.

 

[day_trippr]

Maybe temp control and different yeasts? For all of my NEIPA's I use Voss kveik.

You should try using the definitive yeast for neipas: London III (eg: wy1318 but there are plenty of others on the market)...

Cheers!

 

[RyPA]

I'm off the Voss train. Just don't like the overripe orange flavor I always seem to get with it.

Which kveik do you now use? I've tried hornindal once and it was good, may try it again.

You should try using the definitive yeast for neipas: London III (eg: wy1318 but there are plenty of others on the market)...

Cheers!

Well aware, but my problem is during the summer I cannot keep my fermenter below 70. Kveik is perfect given it ferments hot and puts off citrus notes.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Which kveik do you now use? I've tried hornindal once and it was good, may try it again.

Well aware, but my problem is during the summer I cannot keep my fermenter below 70. Kveik is perfect given it ferments hot and puts off citrus notes.

I haven’t used any type of Kveik for a while now, but when I did I’ve only tried Voss or Lutra. Of the two I much prefer Lutra as I pick up little if any yeast character from it. I fermented a Schwarzbier once and a wheat beer once or twice. Each time they turned out quite good, and the members of my LHBC didn’t pick up on it being a Kveik. While yeast specifically made for a particular style will likely produce a better beer I have no major complaints with Lutra, especially given its wide temperature range.

 

[RyPA]

@BongoYodeler ah yes, it was Lutra not Hornindal that I tried in the past, and it was good. I just used my last pack of Voss so I think I'll restock with Lutra.

What rules/guideline do you guys use for your hop to volume/abv ratio/AA%? Do you just guesstimate and adjust as needed next time around?

 

[youngdh]

Which kveik do you now use? I've tried hornindal once and it was good, may try it again.

Well aware, but my problem is during the summer I cannot keep my fermenter below 70. Kveik is perfect given it ferments hot and puts off citrus notes.

I’m using Hornindal now for me NEIPAs and love it.

 

[k-daddy]

@day_trippr, how many Oz do you typically WP and DH with in a 6gal / ~6abv Neipa batch. Around a year ago I cut back my hopping as my beers were picking up too much bitterness but am now wondering if I dialed it back too much

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1252618/citra-mosaic-nectaron-neipa

60F whirlpool?

 

[RyPA]

60F whirlpool?

That was a typo which I fixed

 

[k-daddy]

That was a typo which I fixed

Thanks. That’s a low temp DH. I’ve been experimenting with cooler DH temps (58-60F) and a shorter duration but unfortunately, my sense of smell isn’t what it used to be so I haven’t noticed a significant difference in aroma from a room temp DH. One of my concerns with the low temp is the quick settling of the hops into the cone of the fermenter resulting in reduced effectiveness. I built a pump recirculation rig to counter this but again, I have no evidence that it’s a worthwhile endeavor but it certainly is effective in putting the hop material back into the mix. Do you rouse or recirculate the beer at those low temps and if so, could you share your methodology and results? Thanks again.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Thanks. That’s a low temp DH. I’ve been experimenting with cooler DH temps (58-60F) and a shorter duration but unfortunately, my sense of smell isn’t what it used to be so I haven’t noticed a significant difference in aroma from a room temp DH. One of my concerns with the low temp is the quick settling of the hops into the cone of the fermenter resulting in reduced effectiveness. I built a pump recirculation rig to counter this but again, I have no evidence that it’s a worthwhile endeavor but it certainly is effective in putting the hop material back into the mix. Do you rouse or recirculate the beer at those low temps and if so, could you share your methodology and results? Thanks again.

Someone on here, I forget who, has been using a coffee grinder to to grind dry hop pellets to help keep them in suspension longer. I haven't tried this myself but I do have a spare burr grinder that I can clean up and experiment with I suppose.

 

[day_trippr]

I use a Cuisinart with a steel blade...

Cheers!

 

[BongoYodeler]

I use a Cuisinart with a steel blade...

Cheers!

Mine is a Capresso Infinity burr grinder that I retired because it liked to blow grounds all over the counter due to static electricity buildup. I just need to clean out the old grounds and oils before I try it with hop pellets. I've read raw rice can be used to do that so I'll try that first.

 

[RyPA]

Don't the pellets break up relatively quickly from just being hydrated?

I guess it's worth a shot though, I just replaced my old burr grinder with a new one so I can add my old one to my brew hardware inventory.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I ferment in carboys, and this year I've been dry hopping using the "cool and short" Janish approach. When I drop pellets into a soft-crashed 50°F fermentor they go straight to the bottom and just sit there. Some pellets are much denser than others and those can remain visibly intact for the entire 48 hours. No bueno.

I don't want to agitate the carboys as that would put the crashed yeast and trub back in circulation which could inspire greater hop creep in the end, so turning them into hop dust proved to be the way to go and has been highly effective. Where I used to dry hop at 68~70°F for 4 to 7 days (1 to 2 rounds) a single 48 hour round using the "dust" has been providing the same bang and so far has kept any creep below noticeable threshold.

I should note when I keg I dissolve one teaspoon of citric acid in 30 ml of RO and inject it into purged kegs prior to filling, and I'm drinking neipas brewed back in March and they're still wonderful. Any O2 that sneeks in with the hops seems to get neutralized before it can do any damage...

Cheers!

 

[gaviga]

Mine is a Capresso Infinity burr grinder that I retired because it liked to blow grounds all over the counter due to static electricity buildup. I just need to clean out the old grounds and oils before I try it with hop pellets. I've read raw rice can be used to do that so I'll try that first.

FYI, if you put you grinder on a moist cloth when you grind, it helps to get rid of the static buildup. I have the same grinder and it works pretty well.

 

[RyPA]

I just bought the OXO burr grinder that has a grounded stainless basin to catch the grounds. It's marketed that it is anti static and is the reason I went with this specific grinder over the higher end grinders.

My previous Krupps burr grinder was a nightmare, I had grinds all over my counter. The new one is 100% better so far but I'm interested to see how it does over the winter when static is worse.

 

[BongoYodeler]

FYI, if you put you grinder on a moist cloth when you grind, it helps to get rid of the static buildup. I have the same grinder and it works pretty well.

Good to know, thanks.

 

[gaviga]

I just bought the OXO burr grinder that has a grounded stainless basin to catch the grounds. It's marketed that it is anti static and is the reason I went with this specific grinder over the higher end grinders.

My previous Krupps burr grinder was a nightmare, I had grinds all over my counter. The new one is 100% better so far but I'm interested to see how it does over the winter when static is worse.

I have an OXO grinder, too. I haven't had the same problem with static with it. I use both regularly (different locations) so I really notice a difference!