"you won't save money homebrewing"

[mongoose33]

Hah totally feel you on that one, when I first got into the hobby I talked about it a lot. Now? When I make a great beer I try to be as hush about it as possible

Though I do give away some of my beers when I need to bottle another batch and I have a bottle shortage going on lol. Usually easy to do by passing a 6 pack to a friend I know who willl easily kill it in a couple days and is good about returning the bottles

I have the same issue--especially when I want to kill a keg to make room for more. I just bought a 32-oz growler and it's....cute. Also about 2 2/3 bottles worth. I have more coming from my LHBS. I suspect it might be an easier and more effective way to share some beer. A whole 64-oz growler might be too much for people to consume before the air gets to it...but a 32-ouncer is just about right.

 

[Miraculix]

With modern yeast, (for example MJ california Lager), it is easily possible to make a good and clean type of lager without temperature control and with only base malt and a cheap bittering hop addition. Will be good and really cheap. So yeah, even if you count in the bucket and other equipment, I guess after one or two batches you are already in the +!

 

[Clef051]

Ultimately, each brewer will have to decide for them self whether they're saving money or not. Even when you factor in time - because each brewer can decide for them self what their time is worth.

But it's a hobby - improving your process and collecting is a part of the fun... right?

I don't factor time into it. I do it cause i enjoy it (well except for the clean up). I wouldn't count mine time into any other hobby so why this one.

Unless you are doing purely to try and save money on beer.

I still save on my end, most 16 oz cans of ipa's are $5. I just brewed 10 gallons for about $65. i could lose all my equipment and buy it again for what i saved, not counting the kegging supplies

 

[applescrap]

Homebrewing to save money on beer is like buying a bass boat to save money on fish.

You are brilliant denny and i love your work but this i cant go along with. I have heard you time and time again state that you still use your cooler that you made. I don't know what it cost you all those years ago or if it was free but wasn't your whole thing how to brew on the cheap and how to make your cooler. I started on a $12 Walmart pot. I Googled the cheapest bass boats and I think they are about 20,000$. So Brewing to save money is nothing like buying a $20,000 bass boat in my opinion. Furthermore and I'm not talking to you I see these kind of comparisons too often. I was telling my buddy how I like to buy organic food and how I think people should buy more expensive food. He started talking about Corvettes vs Kia's $40,000 price differences in cars.

 

[applescrap]

I started Brewing to save money. I did then and I still do. Although it's costing a little more as I want better ingredients. I used my old mr. Beer kegs as fermenters a 4 gallon stainless steel pot from Walmart that cost $12 and a bag. I was chilling in my sink. I started with a 50 lb sack of grain and a pound of hops and I was off and running.

Eventually I had to spend some money. As everyone knows Brewing quick is my thing so I pieced together a 5500 Watt system. It wasn't the cheapest but it was not expensive either. To me my time was worth a little more expense. In fact I will probably pay for a zymatic someday. I know that at that point I won't be saving money but I like drinking Homebrew and am willing to pay a little more for my time. I will probably buy it used and I'm sure over time I will save money again especially considering how expensive beer has gotten.

When I first got on this forum somewhere on the way I think I accidentally insulted somebody for having an abundance of equipment. It's pretty sad really that I would do that but I think I was just trying to help. I wanted to say hey why are you doing that you could make beer on your stove for $12. In my stupid naivety I hadn't realized all the reasons why people are into this aspect of brewing. I think Denny's book says it all. People home brew for many different reasons and for many I think building stuff is one of the reasons. It's a hobby. There is a joy of ownership, quality, ease-of-use, consistency and versatility that comes with quality gear. I realized what an idiot I was for not seeing that Brewing isn't just only about the beer for many.

I don't like Brewing and I've been very forthcoming in that. I don't at all. I'm lazy and I don't like to work. I do however like to drink beer. I also like to make beer for cheaper. If I had a really expensive system or a zymatic I might enjoy Brewing more. I think having a set up somewhere so I didn't have to drag anything around would also help.

There is some nature that plays a role in Brewing. I brew entirely manually and realize that not everybody can pick up 13 gallons of fluid with ease. Depending on someone strength and size they may need different equipment.

Bottom line is that there 99 ways to do this and almost all of them work. But to be very clear with a modest amount of equipment home brewing can be done cheaply. Especially here in Colorado where we can boil on our stoves at our high altitude. Someone can start with a small pot, a bag, and chill in the sink.

The biggest problem with all this is those that have spent money on their systems can sometines think that they make better beer than others. And people spend very little can have a chip on their shoulders. Ultimately the beer trumps all. But in reality if having equipment, buying new equipment, and having fun in that respect bring someone happiness, that is what it is all about, and the beer isn't the only important aspect . Just like golf has been mentioned. I would buy $1,500 clubs absolutely and wouldn't even think twice about it. I also want a $15,000 RV that we will use twice a year. So who the hell am I to judge. There are members here that can show people how to make electric Brewing setups where the PID setup is like $100.

Ultimately, I want to be the kind of person that is really happy for someone who buys a $10,000 PID because it makes them happy. And it's something that will bring them Joy. Not someone who thinks they're a fool. By the way I would love a $10,000 setup. If I came into a ton of money...... I would probably just buy a zymatic[emoji6] happy 4th

 

[kh54s10]

I keep seeing references to what your time is worth. Unless you would be doing something that earns $$. Your time is worth exactly $0.00.

Whether you can save any money homebrewing depends a lot on how you brew and how much you brew.

If you buy a $5500 electric brewery, several $600 conicals, cooling system, $500 on a keezer. $2000 on miscellaneous other stuff to start out it would take you many, many years of using bulk grain, bulk hops, re-using yeast etc. to break even.

But if you go with a cheap burner and kettle for BIAB, limit your fermentation control to a vessel or two and refrain from kegging you could be saving quite a bit of money within the first year.

Especially if you don't count the fact that you will probably be drinking a lot more beer. Unless you are a case of Bud after work kind of guy.

 

[mongoose33]

I don't like Brewing and I've been very forthcoming in that. I don't at all. I'm lazy and I don't like to work. I do however like to drink beer. I also like to make beer for cheaper. If I had a really expensive system or a zymatic I might enjoy Brewing more. I think having a set up somewhere so I didn't have to drag anything around would also help.

This makes me sad in a way. I suppose it's like working a job you hate just to get money to live.

Just like golf has been mentioned. I would buy $1,500 clubs absolutely and wouldn't even think twice about it.

Yeah, but you know how to use 'em. How many people buy $1500 clubs hoping they can buy a game?

Mine were custom built by me. Frequency-matched, MOI-matched, they're probably worth $1500, though I only have about $600 in 'em.

Ultimately, I want to be the kind of person that is really happy for someone who buys a $10,000 PID because it makes them happy. And it's something that will bring them Joy. Not someone who thinks they're a fool. By the way I would love a $10,000 setup. If I came into a ton of money...... I would probably just buy a zymatic[emoji6] happy 4th

Anyone who judges had better first be able to demonstrate they've never made a bad decision, wasted money, bought something others find foolish, or returned a purchase to the store.

BTW, you know how you get a $10,000 setup? Answer: a piece at a time.

 

[foam_top]

I think the reason a lot of brewers are stubborn about this topic is because their self value as a hobbyist is reflected by the time and money spent. I don't mean to strike a nerve with any of those brewers but not all of us need that recognition.

I know by now everyone must be sick of analogies but imagine the time and money necessary to build a hot rod. However, all the other hot rod enthusiasts keep devaluing your expertise by expressing how cheap and easy their project is. I imagine this is how some homebrewers feel. Others, including myself, prefer the hobby to "pay itself off".

 

[Murphys_Law]

If people insist you add the cost of your time should I also add the cost of this $18 cigar to the cost of this batch? [emoji1]

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

2 home depot buckets converted to fermenters, a 4gal pot, a stove, Starsans/hydrometer/racking cane, metal container to chill wort and use as fermentation temp control, beer bottles you already have, capping supplies. Looking at what $80??

Only style it would be hard to succeed in is highly hopped IPAs. But done many others with this set up. Many folks on this forum have enjoyed my HBs. Yes, I have more goodies; SS Strainers, 10gal cooler/mash tun conversion, $150 burners....but I use the above setup. Works great.

It's like bowling. A $200 ball will not make you better. But once you learn technique a $50 ball will work for most situations..only then will the $200 will help.

 

[CA_Mouse]

If you only look at ingredients, then yes, you will save money. Factor in equipment and time, no way. All depends on how you look at things.

I agree with the above. Most people don't see a lot of the actual costs. Water for the mash and for cooling (we all pay for it, unless you have a well or a stream on your property), fuel to boil the wort and to heat the strike water, energy to keep the wort at the proper temperature during fermentation, then factor in personal time (even though it is a hobby, this should always be part of cost).

If you are only brewing clones of beer that you can buy, then you will never truly save money. Brewing clones of something that you can't buy locally or your own recipes, doesn't save you money, but gives you a deep satisfaction. This last example is the real reason I brew, not to save money, but for the satisfaction of handing someone a great beer and then telling them, "I brewed that".

 

[Bubbles2]

Over time....if you consider it a hobby vs a cost analysis. Considering time vs money, your career, it's net take home. 2 hours at the job allows you to bring home 50.00 Net, go buy almost 2 cases of decent beer for close to it. Yet brewing can suck up 3 hours easy.. Then you pay for ingredients. That is known as comparative economics. Conversely if a Hobby, time is not valued as money rather therapy.

As far as the 'Over time' comment, cost of start-up, ingredients, buying bulk can get your costs down to .30-.50 cents a beer, not counting time and not adding in therapy value.

For me it is health, I do not have fluoride in my diet, R.O H20 with a re-mineralizer, Almost all Organic ingredients really removes much of the glysphates aka ' Round-Up' out of my diet, coupled with my own culinary skills in each batch, allows for a quality beer.
One would indeed be paying 1.50 a beer at the market if not more. As the 'icing on the cake', alcohol is taxed according to ABV, So a 6% beer has a higher cost. My beer has no tax which is the best tasting beer in the so called free world.

 

[pinchegil]

You have to also take into consideration what you would spend on brew day if you did not brew beer, and those equipment costs. My other hobbies are hotrods, and firearms. The equipment costs of those hobbies are much more expensive, and after a day of shooting or racing, you always have to finish up with beer that you have to pay for. I don't play golf but a great set of clubs is over 2k, and rounds of golf range from 50 to 150 dollars, and you drink beer the whole time. I have $3k in my brewing equipment, I have more than that in a single rifle. The cost of the equipment is the cost of the hobby, not the cost of the beer. So I am saving money on beer. thats my $.02

 

[Qhrumphf]

alcohol is taxed according to ABV, So a 6% beer has a higher cost. My beer has no tax which is the best tasting beer in the so called free world.

I suppose that depends on where you live.

Both federally in the US, and locally here, as long as you're making "beer" (the federal and local state definitions are broad there) you're taxed on volume sold, not ABV. I don't know how spirits/wine/cider are taxed (I imagine wine/cider also taxed by volume, no idea on spirits though). I do know some states have far more stringent ABV restrictions. Plus, you don't even have to register individual beers federally unless they're distributed across state lines, just file raw barrelage produced and pay taxes on raw barrelage sold, so if you stay hyper-local then ABV isn't a factor federally at all.

Not that it's particularly relevant to anything else discuessed. Just a point of clarification.

 

[Conehead]

I've always wondered about this one.....why breweries charge you twice as much to sip a pint of suds at their establishment.

When I could save money by having them bottle it, pay a distributer, let the retailer make his cut and I only pay half as much. They use the same equipment and facility, and they get to re-use the mug.

Now I know why I don't hang out in the bars or breweries.

They have to pay staff, electricity, bulding taxes, etc. I still go though. A good burger and a nice beer and I am out of there.

 

[GPP33]

Regarding including the cost of your time; well there’s a big IF to be considered. IF you have an opportunity to earn money at that given time then there’s a lost opportunity that should be considered IN THE CONTEXT OF THE QUESTION. Say you’re a CPA and Joe from down the street comes to you on the Friday before tax day and begs you to do his taxes and you say “sorry, I have a big brew weekend ahead of me”. There’s a lost opportunity where you could have earned money (Joe owns a small lucrative business and his records are all messed up so this was a big opportunity). On the other hand, if you work a 9-5 and you have worked all the hours your employer is willing to pay for the week then there’s no lost opportunity because you couldn’t have been working even if you wanted to and needed the money. One of my other hobbies is welding and fabrication, last weekend while I was stirring a pot of oatmeal stout that was trying to boil over I was staring at a half built roll cage in the corner of my garage. Had I not been brewing I would have been earning money while working on it, there was lost opportunity. So in the context of the question, no I didn’t save money over just buying a couple of commercial 1/6 barrels. Now I wouldn’t normally look at that as a cost of brewing because as others have said brewing is a hobby and hobbies aren’t meant to save you money, but if you ask if I save money by brewing I need to look at the bigger picture which does include lost opportunities.


As for last weekend, I probably spent $130 less on my two batches than I would have on commercial kegs but then I bought a new $180 keezer so I could fit two more kegs which are going to cost even more money (kegs, faucets, stems, regulator, disconnects). One step forward, three steps backwards…….

 

[pinchegil]

Yeah, but time is included into the hobby cost. When you take someone to the movies do you say two tickets, two drinks and the never ending box of popcorn cost me $75.00 or do you add the three hours of lost productive time and say that cost me $205 dollars to go to the movies. You will spend the money and the time on any hobby that you do. If you play golf you are done until the next time you play so the net gain of the time, hardware, and greenfee expense is can only be measured in frustration or enjoyment with no tangible gain. In brewing you have similar time, hardware and material expense we to have a net gain of frustration or enjoyment, but we also have beer!! The ultimate in tangible gain!! Not knockin Cider or Whisky they are pretty dam good too

 

[GPP33]

Yea but no one would propose the idea of going to a movie or play golf as a way to save money. I don’t look at brewing as a way to save money so I don’t care about the lost productivity, if you ask me if I save money by doing it then I would need to take that into consideration thereby making it an absolute no.

 

[pinchegil]

So you do it to save money, not because it is a hobby and you would really rather be doing something else besides brewing. In that case I guess it wouldn't save you money. And actually taking a woman to the movies may or may not be more expensive than......... nevermind

 

[GPP33]

Yea but no one would propose the idea of going to a movie or play golf as a way to save money. I don’t look at brewing as a way to save money so I don’t care about the lost productivity, if you ask me if I save money by doing it then I would need to take that into consideration thereby making it an absolute no.

So you do it to save money

The thread is about saving money.......It's not done to save money........if it's about the bottom line you're better off finding someone to pay you to do something else because just about anything else will pay better than home brewing. Better?

 

[Bubbles2]

I suppose that depends on where you live.

Both federally in the US, and locally here, as long as you're making "beer" (the federal and local state definitions are broad there) you're taxed on volume sold, not ABV. I don't know how spirits/wine/cider are taxed (I imagine wine/cider also taxed by volume, no idea on spirits though). I do know some states have far more stringent ABV restrictions. Plus, you don't even have to register individual beers federally unless they're distributed across state lines, just file raw barrelage produced and pay taxes on raw barrelage sold, so if you stay hyper-local then ABV isn't a factor federally at all.

Not that it's particularly relevant to anything else discuessed. Just a point of clarification.

Yeah so when you sell beer to a distributor, the tax is there and then rolled in and passed on to the consumer and treated as Gross cost. So you will see an alcohol at a higher cost at point of purchase pending on it's abv. Not that you see a difference as a homebrewer rather a consumer which correlates with the OP's question.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Yeah so when you sell beer to a distributor, the tax is there and then rolled in and passed on to the consumer and treated as Gross cost. So you will see an alcohol at a higher cost at point of purchase pending on it's abv. Not that you see a difference as a homebrewer rather a consumer which correlates with the OP's question.

Higher ABV beers tend to cost more because they are more expensive to make. The taxes don't change. TTB taxes brewers at a flat rate per barrel sold. ABV does not raise or lower those taxes. Virginia does not as well (but may in other states and other countries). And point of sale doesn't matter either, because it's the same sold out of the taproom.

Distributor and retailer markup is another issue entirely.

It's not important and not relevant anyway. But yes, taxes are certainly passed along to the consumer, and homebrew is not taxed. Which is what is relevant.

 

[Gravitysucks]

I'm assuming that most people look at home brewing as a hobby. If you get into one of the many categories of hobbies that produce an end product other than recreation/enjoyment with the idea of saving money it would seem to move this pastime into the realm of a job. I feel like once saving/making money becomes a consideration it ceases to be a hobby.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Remember all everyones situation is different. In Vancouver bc 6 packs of bud are 15$ and craft stuff is more. I spend about 25-50cents a beer to make my own. Before getting dialed in I spent appx 4000$ a year on store bought. After getting dialed in last year I spent 360$. So I save 3640$ last year on store bought. I spent alot on optional equipment so I need to keep brewing for about 2 more years to actually break even but that's only because I'm close to 10g in equipment at this point. If I gave up tommorow and resold my equipment for 50% it would be a wash more or less. I think it also matters the frequency you brew and how much you drink. Cheers

 

[jack13]

Counting every expense, down to the water, propane and such, I'm currently at $9.59 per six-pack, cheaper than buying good beer, which I humbly suggest mine is.

And even better is that's an average--total $ spent since my very first brew divided by total number of bottles (or equiv) produced--it's not what I'm paying now. So in terms of current cash flow, if I want a keg of beer (almost exactly 9 six-packs), it doesn't actually take $87 out of my pocket. More like $30, or $3.40 per six-pack.

Regardless, paying $9.59 overall per six-pack is saving money, I don't even go out of my way to keep costs down with ingredients, and if I want an upgrade, I do it. So if you claim YOU don't save money homebrewing, fine. But please don't say one can't/don't/won't save money homebrewing! It's just not true.

 

[plano_harry]

Probably somewhere in the past six pages someone has made a similar observation. Many of the beers I want, are not available in bottles or cans, at least where I live. I recently did a Peticolas Velvet Hammer clone for approximately a dollar a bottle. In a taproom this would run me $5 to $8 for a 10 oz pour. I figure I am break even on bottles and cans of high quality craft beer. Just noticed that St. Arnold Bishops Barrel #20 was running $53 for 64oz....maybe I don't have a cost problem, maybe it is a quality issue!

 

[applescrap]

I did it. Yes, i did. I added it all up at least in estimation. And it casts some very interesting light on this conversation. Not sure i can get to any all discussion now. I hope it unfolds itself over time.

Added up 2 bottles starsan, 2 fermenter buckets, siphon, 20 dollar tamale pot, even 12 dollar initial pot. 2 used pinlocks, kegging gear 15g aluminum pot, 220 install, pid, heat on a stick. Came up around 800. Will give math later. 1000 in ingredients or so for 2000 beers. I figure around 1900 for 2000 beers. Assuming 10 per 6 commercial that's 3300 at 1.66 per beer. So on 2000 beers i have saved 1400.

But, i didnt spend that all at once. it happened over time. New batches are cheap as alluded to.

This sheds some interesting light. How hard would it have been to spend more on non bulk ingredients? Also i got good deals on used equipment and new too. Wouldnt have been to hard to spend 1400 more on equipment. So unless you are careful i can see where it can be very hard to save money brewing. Ill add more later. Hope this helps

 

[Pkrd]

Don't forget all the time you've wasted surfing HBT, reading Palmer and his buddies, watching youtube vids of very random guys brewing in funny tee shirts, ordering ingredients online (and checking 13 different suppliers to save 30¢ on your order). You could have been working your hypothetical second job during that time, earning enough to buy your wife that tupperware set she can't afford because you have a freezer full of hops.

Counter that against all the beer you didn't buy to drink because it was brew night, and you don't drink on brew night ever since you had to go to the ER to get the refractometer removed.

 

[lump42]

If people insist you add the cost of your time should I also add the cost of this $18 cigar to the cost of this batch? [emoji1]

My take was that if someone wanted to save money homebrewing, they shouldn't just take into account the ingredients, but equipment costs, depreciation of equipment, labor, opportunity costs (+/-). I don't do any of that because like stated multiple times it's a hobby.

The benefits of hobbies are usually much more than monetary. I can and have but a price on my free time. How do you price out friendships and enjoyment?

 

[seatazzz]

Most of my stuff was either gifted to me or purchased used, with the exception of a false bottom, 12g aluminum kettle, and random hardware. So equipment-wise, I'm probably into this about $800. I finally started buying my two-row in full bags and my hops online, that saves me plenty of $$ if all I have to buy for a brewday is adjuncts and yeast. In the last 6 months the only commercial beer I've bought is maybe two 24-packs of CL if the pipeline was empty and random 22's of craft beers we wanted to try.

So maybe I don't save much money by brewing my own....but I look at it this way. I can brew whatever tickles my taste buds, and it keeps me home. I've had a gambling problem for years, and now I'd much rather spend 6 hours brewing than sitting in a casino blowing money that would be better spent on ingredients. Now if I've got some extra cash, my first thought is "what ingredients/equipment can I buy with this?" instead of "let's go to the casino and see what we can win!". So brewing for me is a good thing and DOES save me money.