Saving yeast

[rmr9]

If you’re transferring the cooled (double check!) kettle wort diectly on top of a fresh yeast cake, you don’t need to make any attempt to actively aerate (oxygenate) the fresh wort. Just transfer it however and don’t worry either way. It won’t hurt, but it I sn’t necessary either. Because you already have a shed load of yeast. More than enough to get your beer across the line within days. Congrats, you’re now brewing like a pro, but don’t tell everyone, because they won’t believe you.

Would you follow this approach as well if brewing say a high OG lager like a doppelbock? Or in that case is it better to oxygenate?

 

[McMullan]

Would you follow this approach as well if brewing say a high OG lager like a doppelbock? Or in that case is it better to oxygenate?

Yes, if the yeast cake is fresh and the fermentation finished without any issues. Just note if the plan is to serially repitch, it’s best to promote at least some ‘rejuvenation’ between batches. In which case you’d remove some of the yeast cake and oxygenate as usual. Other factors are going to limit yeast growth otherwise. But, yes, if it’s just going to be a one-off fermentation, go for it. It should tear through any high gravity wort regardless. There’s no point in wasting any. Only benefits to using it all fresh.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Is the loose foil cover to prevent pressure build?
I ask because I recall the old White Labs un-expanded soda bottle packaging and those were sealed tight.
Is it necessary to leave it loose initially but can you tighten a lid after a period of time?
I've never tried saving yeast so I don't know that detail.

It is to prevent the pressure build up. They say you can put a lid on it after a while, and I have...twice. Both times the yeast died and was unusable. I'm sure this is coincidence, but I just don't lid anymore. Only foil.

 

[odie]

BUT I don't let anything but clear wort into my fermenter. I hate to think what my brewhouse efficiency would be if I bothered calculating it. I pour out a couple quarts of wort with the break and hops every brew, but then I pitch free, clean, waxy, dense slurry instead of buying yeast or extract. There's labor savings too, plus one less chance for contamination.

Screen all your wort...no waste and very clean. I use a bucket strainer. every drop of wort makes it into the fermenter and no trub, hops or break.

 

[odie]

It is to prevent the pressure build up. They say you can put a lid on it after a while, and I have...twice. Both times the yeast died and was unusable. I'm sure this is coincidence, but I just don't lid anymore. Only foil.

it takes a few thousand PSI to kill the yeast from studies I've read. but very little to make it stop propagating.

 

[RM-MN]

I wish someone with a good microscope and experience in yeast cell counts and the ability to distinguish between live and dead yeast cells would do a few experiments with yeast viability in different temperatures in storage. We get info primarily from one source and that source benefits from us purchasing new yeast.

It appears that this has been done before but we may need new testing with more varieties of yeast.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/simple-yeast-storage-procedure.678742/
It appears that the big difference with yeast storage between immediate repitch and 3 to 6 months of storage is lag time as there is less viable yeast and it takes longer to build up the population but the attenuation is as high as a fresh pitch or nearly so.

 

[corncob]

Screen all your wort...no waste and very clean. I use a bucket strainer. every drop of wort makes it into the fermenter and no trub, hops or break.

View attachment 841705

I've seen your posts--looks very smart. Bucket strainer is on my to-do list.

 

[Bassman2003]

I wish someone with a good microscope and experience in yeast cell counts and the ability to distinguish between live and dead yeast cells would do a few experiments with yeast viability in different temperatures in storage. We get info primarily from one source and that source benefits from us purchasing new yeast.

It appears that this has been done before but we may need new testing with more varieties of yeast.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/simple-yeast-storage-procedure.678742/
It appears that the big difference with yeast storage between immediate repitch and 3 to 6 months of storage is lag time as there is less viable yeast and it takes longer to build up the population but the attenuation is as high as a fresh pitch or nearly so.

I am adopting @McMullan's procedure of only storing a 2ml vial. This makes the most logical sense to me as it forces you to build up a starter from small amounts of yeast without all of the dead cells hanging around. So when you do get to a large amount of cells, you know they will be fresh & healthy.

I think there is an acceptance that needs to be had. Myself being the worst offender. I have tried a lot of different approaches to yeast over the years and most of them have been half-**sed. The basic story is that yeast die, and pretty quickly as well. Once you concede to work within their rules your odds of success go way up. Success being defined as very good fermentations. One can throw a single cell in wort and beer will be made. But I am looking for great performance - lagers finishing at 1.007-1.008 and Belgians at 1.006 etc... It takes more work and planning (me canning more wort) but yeast is the only thing that really makes a difference in the end. Making wort is easy.

 

[jtgoral]

I only store (freeze) yeast from a starter I make before brewing. Never yeast from a slurry after making the beer.
I just make 2x bigger starter when I need to store. Stored yeast is always clean.

 

[odie]

I've seen your posts--looks very smart. Bucket strainer is on my to-do list.

make sure you let the kettle settle for a good hour. then pour the clear top thru the strainer first. then the bottom sludge last. if you don't, it will take days or weeks to strain thru...

 

[corncob]

make sure you let the kettle settle for a good hour. then pour the clear top thru the strainer first. then the bottom sludge last. if you don't, it will take days or weeks to strain thru...

My current method:
1.turn off the gas
2.top off with cold water (I always leave about a quart out of the boil to allow me to nudge a missed gravity--I will never get too accurate to keep this up, it's a lifesaver)
3. insert cold immersion chiller and giant spoon

At this point, the wort is about 190deg and will still pasteurize things plenty fast.

4. Insert flameout hops (if called for)
5. Turn on the cooling water and stir occasionally for 15-20 minutes--this gets me to 60 in the winter/80 in the summer
6.remove chiller and spoon
7. Place a 2in spacer under the spigot side of the kettle
8. Wait 15-20 minutes

When I run this off, after 20 minutes, I get 7gal of wort clear enough to serve in a bar. The bottom 1.5in is solid trub, and is about a gallon in volume. I can't help but think that if I settled for a whole hour I wouldn't even need the strainer.

Do you use kettle finings? Stir while chilling? How long does it take you to chill?

 

[Bassman2003]

I agree, a good settling period negates the need for any straining. In fact, I would say the straining is a pickup risk of something hiding inside the filters. However you get the wort out, trub is best left alone and clear wort removed gracefully. The spacer is a good simple solution. I am going to try a manual whirlpool with a SS spoon to go along with my rotating racking arm in my kettle. I just want the trub pile to not be very deep under my pickup tube. Hopefully the whirlpool will get a lot of it to be more towards the center after the chiller is removed.

 

[mac_1103]

I would say the straining is a pickup risk of something hiding inside the filters.

I've strained many a batch of wort without issue. It's not hard to sanitize a strainer. That said, I continue to seek and test alternative methods for moving my wort from the kettle to the fermenter. But being a notorious cheapskate constrains my search.

trub is best left alone and clear wort removed gracefully.

Sadly, graceful is not a term that anyone would use to describe any of my actions on brew days.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

I only store (freeze) yeast from a starter I make before brewing. Never yeast from a slurry after making the beer.
I just make 2x bigger starter when I need to store. Stored yeast is always clean.

I have you noticed any performance or flavor/aroma differences from the yeast that is frozen and the same yeast that hasn't been frozen?

 

[odie]

My current method:
1.turn off the gas
2.top off with cold water (I always leave about a quart out of the boil to allow me to nudge a missed gravity--I will never get too accurate to keep this up, it's a lifesaver)
3. insert cold immersion chiller and giant spoon

At this point, the wort is about 190deg and will still pasteurize things plenty fast.

4. Insert flameout hops (if called for)
5. Turn on the cooling water and stir occasionally for 15-20 minutes--this gets me to 60 in the winter/80 in the summer
6.remove chiller and spoon
7. Place a 2in spacer under the spigot side of the kettle
8. Wait 15-20 minutes

When I run this off, after 20 minutes, I get 7gal of wort clear enough to serve in a bar. The bottom 1.5in is solid trub, and is about a gallon in volume. I can't help but think that if I settled for a whole hour I wouldn't even need the strainer.

Do you use kettle finings? Stir while chilling? How long does it take you to chill?

2. don't top off. you don't know the gravity. on target or not?
7. don't. the trub will settle below the spigot after a good hour. cover that kettle.

place bucket screen on fermenter bucket. open spigot slowly, not full blast until you are sure it's not pulling any trub from around the spigot.

I think mine is around 200 micron. Bought it long ago.

when you start running off into the bucket screen, you will see how fast & easy it goes. if it starts to build up, and creep towards the outer edge of the screen, shut it off, let drain, spray out screen, wait another 15-20 min and go again. It probably just pulled a little trub from around the spigot. should be good to go full blast.

when spigot stops, tilt kettle to get some more. eventually the trub will start coming...let it. once the screen starts backing up, just dump the whole kettle bottom dregs in and put a bucket lid over the screen. Go have a beer and let gravity do it's magic. you will soon have a tight trub cake to discard.

BONUS...you will now need to adjust all your recipes at least 10% down to not overshoot your OG target. less water and grain in and more/higher beer out.

 

[corncob]

2. don't top off. you don't know the gravity. on target or not?
7. don't. the trub will settle below the spigot after a good hour. cover that kettle.

place bucket screen on fermenter bucket. open spigot slowly, not full blast until you are sure it's not pulling any trub from around the spigot.

I think mine is around 200 micron. Bought it long ago.

when you start running off into the bucket screen, you will see how fast & easy it goes. if it starts to build up, and creep towards the outer edge of the screen, shut it off, let drain, spray out screen, wait another 15-20 min and go again. It probably just pulled a little trub from around the spigot. should be good to go full blast.

when spigot stops, tilt kettle to get some more. eventually the trub will start coming...let it. once the screen starts backing up, just dump the whole kettle bottom dregs in and put a bucket lid over the screen. Go have a beer and let gravity do it's magic. you will soon have a tight trub cake to discard.

BONUS...you will now need to adjust all your recipes at least 10% down to not overshoot your OG target. less water and grain in and more/higher beer out.

Sorry--I wasn't clear: the top-off (or lack of) is based on the gravity and volume at the start of boil and the volume at the end of boil. So my mash might wander a couple points of target, but I'll make the beer I planned to, just a little more or less of it.

 

[odie]

I never adjust for gravity. I have a "target" range for a recipe...but I brew to get 5 gal total in the keg.

If my volume comes up short, I may add water depending on gravity and/or how short.

If I missed gravity, I just adjust recipe up or down next time.

But gravity and ABV are secondary concerns...is it good to drink? That's what I care about.

Honestly, I've been trying to tone down some of my beers lately...getting older means I can't drink like I used to...or as much...

 

[corncob]

I never adjust for gravity. I have a "target" range for a recipe...but I brew to get 5 gal total in the keg.

If my volume comes up short, I may add water depending on gravity and/or how short.

If I missed gravity, I just adjust recipe up or down next time.

But gravity and ABV are secondary concerns...is it good to drink? That's what I care about.

Honestly, I've been trying to tone down some of my beers lately...getting older means I can't drink like I used to...or as much...

Honestly, I've been trying to tone down some of my beers lately...getting older means I can't drink like I used to...or as much...

That is the truth. Seems to be going around.

 

[Bassman2003]

I've strained many a batch of wort without issue. It's not hard to sanitize a strainer. That said, I continue to seek and test alternative methods for moving my wort from the kettle to the fermenter. But being a notorious cheapskate constrains my search.

Sadly, graceful is not a term that anyone would use to describe any of my actions on brew days.

I think that trub and hop pellet particles are so fine that straining might not be the easiest approach. Settling is free and easy as long as you can allocate the time. But it does take a mechanism to get the wort away without disrupting the sediment. If my manual whirlpool is not totally successful I will try the 1-2" lift under the spigot at the start of the settling period with a return to level for the drain.

 

[mac_1103]

I think that trub and hop pellet particles are so fine that straining might not be the easiest approach. Settling is free and easy as long as you can allocate the time.

Yeah, I don't find it particularly easy but it definitely does work. I think odie may be onto something with the combination of settling and straining. And there's always something else you can do with the time.

 

[Bassman2003]

From reading Odie's post, the procedure seems kind of time intensive on its own if the filter might need to be taken out and cleaned. Just curious, why do you not not find settling easy?

 

[mac_1103]

I meant that straining isn't exactly easy. Simple, yes, but not easy.

edit - at least not the way I've been doing it

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Passing along this Lallemand news letter (link) that I saw mentioned in a different forum.

 

[odie]

From reading Odie's post, the procedure seems kind of time intensive on its own if the filter might need to be taken out and cleaned. Just curious, why do you not not find settling easy?

only if you are too pushy...you want the trub to settle settle below the spigot so that you can get the first 4 gal thru the fine strainer without it backing up. Is an hour really that long? Sometimes only need 30 minutes. Then dump the rest into the strainer, put a lid on and go to sleep. You will have 5 gal clean wort in the morning.

You are still probably gonna be waiting for the temps to come down to pitch temps. If you are already at pitch temps, well then pull the strainer, pitch the yeast, replace the strainer and dump the trub in and get that last gallon. It will pass thru overnight while the yeast is still barley waking up.

You let the kettle settle for about 30 or an hour to ensure your straining goes fast and easy. It will go as fast as your spigot will flow. that bottom trub you dump in at the end and go to sleep and don't worry. It will be done before breakfast. 100% wort and zero trub. good to the last drop.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for sharing your technique. So many ways to go about homebrewing!

 

[mac_1103]

Then dump the rest into the strainer, put a lid on and go to sleep.

Where did you get your strainer? Mine have handles that the lid doesn't fit over (at least not well enough to trust overnight).

 

[odie]

Where did you get your strainer? Mine have handles that the lid doesn't fit over (at least not well enough to trust overnight).

standard 5 gal bucket strainer. Amazon or ebay has them. assorted micron ratings.

It's just a plastic insert that slips right in. you can place the lid on top to cover it but the lid will not snap on. you just want to keep anything from floating in.

with the strainer in place, you are not going to get anything into the wort below. If you are already at pitching temps, you can add yeast first and then the strainer and pour the wort in.

you could probably do the entire fermentation with the strainer left in place and the trub cake on top.

 

[mac_1103]

standard 5 gal bucket strainer. Amazon or ebay has them. assorted micron ratings.

I guess my mistake was going for the sturdier-looking yet less expensive metal-handled ones.

 

[redrocker652002]

I found a metal bucket strainer on Amazon, not sure how much I paid for it, but it wasn't too much I am sure.

This idea of leaving the kettle tilted a bit has me thinking. I have a filter that sits at the bottom of my kettle that seems to catch a lot, but also plugs up and I end up having to sanitize my hand and run it over the screen to get the wort out. If I were to take the filter out, use the bucket strainer and tilt the kettle away from the ball valve while cooling, I wonder if that would settle the trub and give me a better wort? I have no issues with clarity once it makes it thru the fermentation, but there is a bit of "stuff" in the yeast I am sure. Might have to give it a try for the heck of it.

 

[redrocker652002]

Well, this has certainly developed into a great conversation. I am glad to see it spurned some good chat and ideas. So, tomorrow we get everything ready and Saturday is the big day. I have two smaller mason jars, and a bigger one to pour it all into. I will then measure how much I have and split that in half. Half goes into the new batch and half goes into one of the smaller mason jars and in the fridge to await the next batch I have yet to figure out. If it sits in the fridge for more than a few weeks, I will dump it. I have a packet of Bry97 just in case, but from all I read I should not need it. This is pretty cool stuff for me, as it is just another facet of the hobby I hope to try and at least be somewhat successful at. Saturday, pause and just say a quick prayer for me, I am not very lucky when it comes to this stuff, but I am going to give it a try. Rock On!!!!!!!

As a side note, my end game will be to buy a packet of liquid yeast, create a starter and then follow the freeze method to bank a nice reserve of some of the more popular yeasts that I figure to use.

Thanks to all who replied, added their input and had a hand in this. This is why I enjoy this group so much, you folks are always at the ready to add info. Thank you all

 

[Kornssj]

This was my first time washing / rinsing my yeast and got some good vials out of it. I should have done more though because i dumped out more than half of my slurry, as i was unsure if it was just lees vs healthy yeast.

Found a video here : Doin' the Most Brewing

Here is what I was able to harvest. Its Denny's Yeast so it should be pretty verstile in terms of style. I have never built a starter before but sounds like I'll need to do that before Pitch this into my next batch.

 

[McMullan]

This was my first time washing / rinsing my yeast and got some good vials out of it. I should have done more though because i dumped out more than half of my slurry, as i was unsure if it was just lees vs healthy yeast.

Found a video here : Doin' the Most Brewing

Here is what I was able to harvest. Its Denny's Yeast so it should be pretty verstile in terms of style. I have never built a starter before but sounds like I'll need to do that before Pitch this into my next batch.

View attachment 841922

It’s not necessary to wash yeast. Beer is the best buffer to store yeast in and requires a lot less effort. Washing introduces risks and puts yeast under stress reducing viability at a higher rate.

 

[Kornssj]

It’s not necessary to wash yeast. Beer is the best buffer to store yeast in and requires a lot less effort. Washing introduces risks and puts yeast under stress reducing viability at a higher rate.

How do you separate lees? I plan on using this yeast for various styles of beer such as Rauchbier, Amber Ale or maybe even a Fruit Beer.

I figured even with stress, a starter should able to compensate for viability.

 

[McMullan]

How do you separate lees? I plan on using this yeast for various styles of beer such as Rauchbier, Amber Ale or maybe even a Fruit Beer.

I figured even with stress, a starter should able to compensate for viability.

If you plan to harvest yeast, focus on limiting kettle trub transfer to the FV.

 

[Kornssj]

If you plan to harvest yeast, focus on limiting kettle trub transfer to the FV.

I've tried to do this in my previous batch, but trub ends up getting through no matter what, even after it settles. I did just purchase a FLOTit 2.0, would this take care lingering trub? Or would I need to use a legit filter of some sort.

 

[McMullan]

I've tried to do this in my previous batch, but trub ends up getting through no matter what, even after it settles. I did just purchase a FLOTit 2.0, would this take care lingering trub? Or would I need to use a legit filter of some sort.

Irish moss and a little time for gravity to take effect, is usually all it takes.

 

[redrocker652002]

Ok. So here is what I ended up with on my yeast. I think the smallest jar is 6oz the middle is 12 and the big one is 16. I still had yeast in the bucket that I didn't have Amy more jars for. My biggest fear is that I had to pour it in the jar from the bucket introducing some O2. What do you guys think? Use it or not?

 

[McMullan]

Looks very usable from here, but to get the most out of it, repitch the big jar as soon as possible, and within week. The medium size as backup or slurry to make starters. Smallest, store as an experiment. If you can, swirl them up daily to help reduce the rate of viability loss.

 

[corncob]

I am sure pitching within a week is optimal, but lots of homebrewers get excellent results repitching slurry much, much later. You have to make an educated guess about viability, of course, just like you do on cell density. Without a microscope you will never know for sure, but a little experimentation over several months of regular brewing can get you to a repeatable process that produces consistent results.

My personal experience is using waxy slurry (no trub, no hops) for English ale:

OG 1.040-1.050, 2-4wks old, pitch 3/4 cup for 7 gallons
Bigger OG, add 50%
Older slurry, add 50%
Loose slurry, add 50%

If I ever get past 2 months with slurry, I might make a starter.

I've never done it, but I guess if I were repitching after only a few days, I would pitch only a half cup. BUT in that case the slurry would still have beer in it, so if be right back to 3/4-1 cup, depending on thickness.

Top cropped yeast is even better--I would decrease all those numbers by a third.

Guessing is fun.

 

[redrocker652002]

Ok. So here is what I have this morning. Big jar. Do I pour off the beer at the top and just use the thick stuff at the bottom? I am getting cold feet on using it. Im thinking of bagging it and trying again by overbuilding a 1.5l starter instead. The beer I took this from, on initial taste while I was bottling, didn't taste as good as I had hoped, so I don't want to mess up this batch by using a lousy yeast if that makes sense.