That German Lager taste

[Oleson M.D.]

Well...we won 1st Place Gold at this year's Bluebonnet, in two categories. Munich Helles, and Oktoberfest.
I know nothing about LODO, never even heard of it until now.

The mash was a single infusion. W-34/70 yeast. And untreated, filtered, city tap water was used.

This is pointed out as it is my personal experience. There were over 1,400 brewers entered in the Bluebonnet, with over 4,000 bottles of beer judged.

Hope this will help some of you here.

 

[Bassman2003]

This is the logical fallacy I struggle with. Low oxygen beers are so sensitive they can't really be bottled or transported without harm, yet 99% of these types of threads describing a "German flavor" are discussing bottled, pasteurized, and imported beers which still seem to have the flavor most are looking for. Some of them even exhibit classic oxidation flavors such as cardboard and yet still retain the "it flavor". That implies you can still attain that flavor with someone amount of oxygen in the mix

Another logical issue I have is that American macrobreweries also perportedly employ these same low oxygen techniques and yet budweiser original doesn't have remotely the same qualities as Weihenstephan Original. So is it the oxygen or is it something else?

I said wouldn't comment.. I was wrong

I think your first comment reveals how delicate fresh beer flavors are. That is why Anheuser-Busch has plants all over the world. Even the big money operations can't transport their product without losing the flavor they want. What happens to these beers when they are transported? They don't evaporate, they just turn into "good" beers with oxidation flavors that were not there from the start.

As far as Bud vs W. - I would say they are both very clean when consumed fresh at the source. They taste different because they use different ingredients and yeast. So yes, that Germanness everybody is after is not just low oxygen, but what we have learned is that the low oxygen allows the best flavors to shine through without and oxidation flavor to get in the way.

 

[duncan.brown]

@Brooothru, I completely agree with you. Let's call it "adopting techniques that reduce your total packaged oxygen on both the hot and cold sides" or ATTRYTPOOBTHACS so nobody is offended.

Then pitch yeast before oxygenating. I know it sounds crazy but sequencing things this way really does reduce staling.

I'm brewing a helles right now and I'm adopting this in my procedures. I used to oxygenate then pitch right away, but I'll pitch before oxygenating today. One other thing I do is to whirlpool my wort into my unitank (I fill through the racking arm pointed horizontally) and then let all the trub settle into a large sight glass before pitching. Here are some pics:

Hot break and hop material left in the boil kettle. This hasn't been chilled, as I go straight from my plate chiller to my fermenter.

Trub and break material settling out in the fermenter:

Clear wort before pitching:

Just for fun, here's the clarity of my first runnings:

 

[duncan.brown]

The main point I would disagree with is the mash pH. I have come to learn that 5.4-5.6 measured at room temps is the ideal for mash pH. An end of the boil knockout pH of 5.1 brings it down to the levels you mentioned. This addition is where I add all of my sauergut to lower the end boil pH and to retain as much sauergut flavor.

Yes, I'm cutting corners a bit here as I don't add sauergut to the kettle. I do this based on a presentation from Weyermann I found a while ago that suggested that you could drop the mash pH with acidulated malt and skip the sauergut at the cost of some mash efficiency.

 

[TheMadKing]

@Brooothru, I completely agree with you. Let's call it "adopting techniques that reduce your total packaged oxygen on both the hot and cold sides" or ATTRYTPOOBTHACS so nobody is offended.



I'm brewing a helles right now and I'm adopting this in my procedures. I used to oxygenate then pitch right away, but I'll pitch before oxygenating today. One other thing I do is to whirlpool my wort into my unitank (I fill through the racking arm pointed horizontally) and then let all the trub settle into a large sight glass before pitching. Here are some pics:

Hot break and hop material left in the boil kettle. This hasn't been chilled, as I go straight from my plate chiller to my fermenter.

View attachment 743715

Trub and break material settling out in the fermenter:

View attachment 743716

Clear wort before pitching:

View attachment 743717View attachment 743718

Just for fun, here's the clarity of my first runnings:

View attachment 743719

Beautiful! Looks just like a paler version of the Scottish ale I made today! Perfectly crystal clear first runnings, lots of hops break in the kettle, clear wort into the fermenter. It's a great feeling achieving that with nothing but a recirculating mash and whirlfloc!

I hope both beers taste as good as they look

 

[Brooothru]

@Brooothru, I completely agree with you. Let's call it "adopting techniques that reduce your total packaged oxygen on both the hot and cold sides" or ATTRYTPOOBTHACS so nobody is offended.

I LOVE it! Can I co-opt the acronym?

I'm brewing a helles right now and I'm adopting this in my procedures. I used to oxygenate then pitch right away, but I'll pitch before oxygenating today. One other thing I do is to whirlpool my wort into my unitank (I fill through the racking arm pointed horizontally) and then let all the trub settle into a large sight glass before pitching.

Almost exactly what I do. I gently whirlpool in the BV after chilling below 70F/21C, cover let stand for about 20~30 minutes while the trub settles (it falls like a rock when it's dosed with the BrewTan B 'trifecta'), and then pump (underletted) into a unitank with the racking arm parallel to gravity. I even tried circulating left rather than right to account for Coriolis effect in the Northern latitudes (hate to admit it, but I really did. Conclusion: doesn't matter, works great either way!).

Here are some pics:

View attachment 743715
Yep. That's what the BV looks like after whirlpool

View attachment 743716
I've started cold crashing down to pitch temperature, waiting a few hours, then opening up the dump valve with the sight glass in place and letting the "egg drop soup" settle and compact. As the trub settles, it pushed the wort back up into the fermenter. Less trub, more wort. Then I close the dump valve, pitch the yeast, then oxygenate. Since the temperature goes quickly from boil to around 45F-50F, I'm not too worried about an infection taking up residence in the wort before fermentation actually starts.

Clear wort before pitching:

View attachment 743717View attachment 743718

Just for fun, here's the clarity of my first runnings:

View attachment 743719

It's a beautiful thing! If I didn't know better I'd say you'd taken pics of my brew day. I've read some articles saying that some trub is a good thing for the health and vigor of the yeast. I do add nutrients when pitching after trub dump and haven't experienced any lag in fermentation in the adaptive phase. If anything nearly all of my fermentations (with one recent exception) since adopting this methodology have been quicker and attenuated more completely. My beers also stay fresher longer.

 

[passedpawn]

@Brooothru, I completely agree with you. Let's call it "adopting techniques that reduce your total packaged oxygen on both the hot and cold sides" or ATTRYTPOOBTHACS so nobody is offended.



I'm brewing a helles right now and I'm adopting this in my procedures. I used to oxygenate then pitch right away, but I'll pitch before oxygenating today. One other thing I do is to whirlpool my wort into my unitank (I fill through the racking arm pointed horizontally) and then let all the trub settle into a large sight glass before pitching. Here are some pics:

Hot break and hop material left in the boil kettle. This hasn't been chilled, as I go straight from my plate chiller to my fermenter.

View attachment 743715

Trub and break material settling out in the fermenter:

View attachment 743716

Clear wort before pitching:

View attachment 743717View attachment 743718

Just for fun, here's the clarity of my first runnings:

View attachment 743719

What type of filter do you have on the bottom of your boil kettle to block the hop debris?

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, I'm cutting corners a bit here as I don't add sauergut to the kettle. I do this based on a presentation from Weyermann I found a while ago that suggested that you could drop the mash pH with acidulated malt and skip the sauergut at the cost of some mash efficiency.

I would wonder about the hops for some styles as I believe 5.4 is there happy place in the kettle? Anyway, great looking wort! Clear all the way through the process is what we all should be after, no matter what style.

 

[duncan.brown]

What type of filter do you have on the bottom of your boil kettle to block the hop debris?

It's a Hop Stopper 2.0:

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/hop-stopper
I used to use a stainless spider, but I like the hop stopper better. It can easily cope with the 10 oz of hops that I put in my DIPA without any blockage.

 

[csantoni]

Left: Spaten Oktoberfest
Right: My MO-ktoberfest, which I think is drinking more like a Festbier than a Marzen.

In addition to the nice "round" German taste, the Spaten has a caramel sweetness. Mine finishes drier and has a bit more carbonation bite and that unmistakable MO flavor.

I prefer mine, but I always like my own (don't we all?). I'll brew this again with some ingredient changes and might do some hot side ATTRYTPOOBTHACS techniques, my cold side is already pretty good in that respect.

I truly appreciate all the comments (yes, all of them) and pride myself on having started two threads that led to ATTRYTPOOBTHACS and CAMRA/enzyme discussions.

 

[Bramling Cross]

It's a Hop Stopper 2.0:

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/hop-stopper
I used to use a stainless spider, but I like the hop stopper better. It can easily cope with the 10 oz of hops that I put in my DIPA without any blockage.

Is that pellet or leaf? I gather the 2.0 version can cope with pellets, but 10oz is a lotta pellets.

 

[duncan.brown]

Is that pellet or leaf? I gather the 2.0 version can cope with pellets, but 10oz is a lotta pellets.

T90 pellets. I checked the recipe and it's 8.7 oz, but close enough.

 

[Bramling Cross]

T90 pellets. I checked the recipe and it's 8.7 oz, but close enough.

Thanks for that! I've been considering giving the 2.0 a shot, but you've helped me make up my mind. It'll be a great upgrade.

Thanks again!

 

[mongoose33]

Any reason for not using the YOS method instead of boiling? to me at least it is far less work.

The key is to get the O2 out of the water. Whatever works.

I don't find the preboil method to be particularly difficult. I put on the electric element, do other setup chores, when it is boiling for 5 minutes I chill through my counterflow chiller down to around 150 (I use a RIMS to set final temp).

 

[Miraculix]

BrewTan B blended with NaMeta and ascorbic acid at a ratio of ~0.8 gr : 0.5 gr : 0.5 gr (note: 1.8 gr tot. blend) per 5 gallon batch in the mash (my mash water is about 7 gallons at dough-in) is a highly effective antioxidant. It also results in some of the clearest wort you'll ever see coming out of the mash. I also add a lesser amount of the blend [~1.4 gr total blend] to the late boil to provide further antioxidizing protection and to aid in settling trub before transferring to the fermenter.

Then pitch yeast before oxygenating. I know it sounds crazy but sequencing things this way really does reduce staling. There is less aggregate O2 pickup during the chill, hop stand, whirlpool and transfer. Since the yeast will quickly consume all the oxygen added to the fermentation, you 'feed' it all the O2 it needs when it needs it after the yeast is already present in the wort, thus reducing any staling that might occur. The yeast get what they need with little or none left around to stale your beer.

Ferment sealed in a primary-only single stage, transfer under pressure to a purged keg ~ 5 points before final gravity, attach a spunding valve and finish fermentation at room temperature. After a week, put the keg in the fridge/kegerator and be drinking carbonated finished beer the next day, or transfer to a serving keg with a floating dip tube and have clear beer after a few days of settling.

I'd tell you that's 75% of what LoDO is, but the guardians of tradition would then scoff in derision and label me an infidel for even mentioning such heresy. I dunno, it looks pretty non-threatening to me. Seems like "traditional" home brewing with a few minor tweaks that are neither sorcery or "fake science". Neither do these steps take much time or effort over what I would otherwise do. Quite to the contrary, the time interval grain to glass is at least one week quicker. It also results in some mighty fine "German flavor" in my stein.

So I'll tell ya' what. In order not to frighten or upset the folks who seem to prefer oxidized or otherwise short-lived beers, let's just call it "my processes and techniques" rather than "low-oxygen brewing" to prevent hurt feelings. I'm sure the mods are tiring of walking a tightrope worrying about when they're gonna' have to shut this thread down. And frankly I growing a little tired of seeing my online friends and family feuding over something so trivial. But if you want to talk about some equally simple steps I use to limit O2 pickup in other ways, shoot me a PM

Peace, out.

Look, nobody is saying that this is completely bs, if you look above there are quite some well differentiated opinions on that matter, not written in the rude way that I'm for example sometimes talk about things I don't like to see.

There is certainly truth behind the danger of oxidation, but the main question still is "do I REALLY need all that stuff to make great tasting beer?" And the answer is simple "no you don't!".

The question was not, "how can I make my great beer even better?" Or "how can I make the flavour last longer?", That's what I'm missing, differentiation.

So by all means trying to limit oxygen exposure in all stages, really great idea. No splashing, no freaking bubbles in the lines while transferring via gravity (ask me how I know...), lagering to really get the beer BRIGHT and clear before drinking with zero yeast, and of course, everything air tight from the point of fermentation start.

This will result in great beer, and there might be room for further improvements, but if you get these basics right, you will be able to create the it factor with the correct yeast handling and yeast strains plus right ingredients.

That's what should be kept in mind.

If you go further from there, great! Always new stuff to learn, and you probably know that I'm always doing experiments and new stuff, I love it. Just please please please, differentiation.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Yup. If your idea of "German flavor" is the......

But then there's an interesting discussion about the way that presentation affects perception of taste. Does Hofbrau really taste better in the Hofbrau beer hall than it does in a pub in Hannover, or does it taste better there because I expect it to and I want it to?

Having had the pleasure of drinking Hofbrau beer at the brewery in Munich, and at the Hofbrauhaus in Munich, plus other local pubs in the area, we detected no difference in the taste or perception of the beer.
But I assure you that the Hofbrau beer purchased at your local supermarket will not taste the same as the beer purchased in Germany.

 

[passedpawn]

If you want really fresh German beer, go to the brewery and get it right out of the brite tank haha. I ran into a drunk brewer in Dusseldorf and that's just what we did.

 

[Brooothru]

There is certainly truth behind the danger of oxidation, but the main question still is "do I REALLY need all that stuff to make great tasting beer?" And the answer is simple "no you don't!".

I totally agree with this. I made good beers in the past, but believe I'm making better ones now.

The question was not, "how can I make my great beer even better?" Or "how can I make the flavour last longer?", That's what I'm missing, differentiation.

I'll disagree, in that the whole "low oxygen brewing process" that has been embraced by some as a means to achieve better beer with longer lasting flavor does make a discernible difference with minimal effort. In return that process is unduly dismissed and disparaged by some who feel threatened by the mistaken inference on their part that somehow they are being disparaged by by the "low oxygen brewing process" advocates.

We're all after the same result: better beer that tastes better and lasts longer.

We're all in agreement that less oxygen exposure produces better and more stable beer that does indeed taste better and lasts longer.

So by all means trying to limit oxygen exposure in all stages, really great idea. No splashing, no freaking bubbles in the lines while transferring via gravity (ask me how I know...), lagering to really get the beer BRIGHT and clear before drinking with zero yeast, and of course, everything air tight from the point of fermentation start.

Absolutely correct.

This will result in great beer, and there might be room for further improvements, but if you get these basics right, you will be able to create the it factor with the correct yeast handling and yeast strains plus right ingredients.

"Back to basics" should be the first step anyone should take in examining ways to improve upon their processes. I believe that's what you're saying, and I agree. Lost in the discussion, however, is that there are different methodologies to achieve the desired goal. We'll never be able to fully mimic the processes and procedures of a large scale commercial brewery on a Homebrew scale, nor should we attempt to. That would be an exercise in futility. LoDO processes are a Homebrew hack that allows us to accomplish on a small scale what renowned breweries achieve without having to resort to hacks.

If you go further from there, great! Always new stuff to learn, and you probably know that I'm always doing experiments and new stuff, I love it. Just please please please, differentiation.

We're singin' from the same hymnal, my Brother! My greatest enjoyment in this hobby is trying new things, always with the goal of brewing better beer and having fun. And I have seen a differentiation in my beers since adopting many (not all) of the "low oxygen brewing process."

Prost!

 

[Brooothru]

Having had the pleasure of drinking Hofbrau beer at the brewery in Munich, and at the Hofbrauhaus in Munich, plus other local pubs in the area, we detected no difference in the taste or perception of the beer.
But I assure you that the Hofbrau beer purchased at your local supermarket will not taste the same as the beer purchased in Germany.

Not sure that I totally agree.

Therapists who specialize in addiction recognize that the first step in recovery is removing the addict from not only from the addictive triggering behavior but also "set and settings" situations, since much of the endorphin rush actually comes from the environment. I have had many enjoyable occasions to have beers at the Hofbrau House in Munich, the breweries in Altstadt in Dusseldorf, Pils in Stuttgart and Frankfurt, Kolsch in Koln, and Helles while watching the glockenspiel in the Marienplatz. I'd always bring home some local beers (not the Exports) back with me to the 'States, and they never "tasted" the same when I drank them in my "basement bierstube". Being with friends in a festive mood was always not only more enjoyable but heightened other sensory perceptions.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

That is why Anheuser-Busch has plants all over the world. Even the big money operations can't transport their product without losing the flavor they want.

Just some thoughts to add - while freshness and the importance of location to brand image are certainly important as they impact the actual quality of the product and perceived quality of the product which affects customer satisfaction/sales, beer is heavy and expensive to transport. Geographic footprint probably has a lot to do with plant minimum efficient scale size, tax laws, and transport costs to maximize profitability, especially for the global adjunct lager brands.

 

[burtom]

German ingredients and LODO be damned. As a great brewer, he has to be a great brewer because he said so and he would know, on this very forum once said, "You can't brew REAL BEER without mashing sheetrock!!!".

The above may be a paraphrase or not even close as it has been awhile since I read that thread.

 

[Pablo 54]

Judas Priest. That was an interesting ride. One thing I learned, I thought I was doing LODO but in reality I just really like the convenience of pressure transferring my lagers after a completely sealed cold crash.

Speaking of LODO......
For the people here who either currently live in Germany or have spent some time there, I took this picture in Berlin, June of 2014. I watched this guy for about 15 minutes and it looked to me that he was simply pumping beer into some holding device in the restaurant.
Is this a common practice in Germany for transferring bulk amounts of beer? I didn't see one keg or one bottle or one can enter the establishment.

For a person like me who is not a true LODO brewer, would this be a logical end step for transferring a beer brewed under strict LODO conditions?

 

[Bilsch]

For a person like me who is not a true LODO brewer, would this be a logical end step for transferring a beer brewed under strict LODO conditions?

Tank beer is becoming more popular in Europe as it has been for a while in Czech Rep. Believe it or not this Tankovna method provides for even less oxidative damage and thermal stress then keg transport and storage. In the recieving tank there is an oxygen barrier bag that is replaced each filling ensuring sanitation but more importantly the beer is dispensed by pressurizing the outside of this tank liner thus nothing in the CO2 can come in contract with and damage the beer. Also the perfect level of carbonation is maintained. I'm told that after the bag is replaced and the hose from the truck is connected, a vacuum is pulled from the truck collapsing the bladder and de-aerating the transfer line.

 

[Pablo 54]

Thank you, Bilsch. That was way more interesting than I originally thought. This has to be more efficient then filling dozens or hundreds of kegs.

 

[Bilsch]

Thank you, Bilsch. That was way more interesting than I originally thought. This has to be more efficient then filling dozens or hundreds of kegs.

You bet. Most Tankovna are 500 liters and many bars have 4 to 6 of them. The biggest advantage in my mind is the taste of the beer. It really best replicates drinking straight from the lagering tanks at the brewery.

 

[Beermeister32]

I think this has been one of my favorite threads, lots of great info here. The one thing I might add is the benefit of aging most lager styles. Two or three months lagering COLD in a keg turns a good beer great!

Also, I was under the understanding that “Marzens” (traditionally March beers designed for aging all summer) was the main category. So traditional Oktoberfest, Festbiers and American Oktoberfest were all sub-categories of Marzens. Festbiers being lighter and easy drinking but still considered Marzens.

 

[dmtaylor]

traditional Oktoberfest, Festbiers and American Oktoberfest were all sub-categories of Marzens. Festbiers being lighter and easy drinking but still considered Marzens.

I think these three sub-styles are all completely different beasts. Festbier especially is nowhere near a traditional Marzen, not in the slightest.

 

[TheMadKing]

Also, I was under the understanding that “Marzens” (traditionally March beers designed for aging all summer) was the main category. So traditional Oktoberfest, Festbiers and American Oktoberfest were all sub-categories of Marzens. Festbiers being lighter and easy drinking but still considered Marzens.

I think you have that a bit backwards... Putting BJCP' invented categories aside entirely

Oktoberfestbier is just whatever beer is served at Oktoberfest in Munich. In the past it was Marzen (which legend says was an accident), today it has evolved into the modern Paulaner creation of Festbier. So Marzen and Festbier are both Oktoberfestbiers.

The first Oktoberfest celebration was a wedding reception for King Ludwig and they had intended to serve pale lager bier (Helles), but it had been a hot summer and they ran out of Helles. So they tapped the next largest supply of beer they had, which happened to be the brown beer brewed in March which had been stored all summer and was intended for the winter beer. It became tradition because of that twist of fate

Paulaner in (I believe the 1980's) invented the Festbier to replace the Marzen and be "more poundable".

 

[monkeymath]

The first Oktoberfest celebration was a wedding reception for King Ludwig and they had intended to serve pale lager bier (Helles), but it had been a hot summer and they ran out of Helles. So they tapped the next largest supply of beer they had, which happened to be the brown beer brewed in March which had been stored all summer and was intended for the winter beer. It became tradition because of that twist of fate.

Interesting. Can you give a reference/source here? Helles in 1810 seems a bit early to me - wasn't Pilsner invented only in 1842?

 

[TheMadKing]

Interesting. Can you give a reference/source here? Helles in 1810 seems a bit early to me - wasn't Pilsner invented only in 1842?

Historical German and Austrian Biers for the HomeBrewer by Andreas Krennmair

I was going from memory and don't have the book in front of me. So it was supposed to be a pale yellow lower gravity beer called simply Sommerbier, so I was paraphrasing and Helles was a suitable stand-in.

 

[Beermeister32]

Here’s a really good description of the types and circumstances:

https://www.craftbeering.com/oktoberfest-vs-marzen-oktoberfest-style-beer/

 

[z-bob]

Hoffbrau O'festbier is one of my favorite beers; it is the among lightest colored of the beers actually served in Munich (it is likely *the* lightest, but I haven't sampled all of them), and the strongest. I'm drinking one right now, bought from Costco. I don't think there's a nickel's worth of difference between a Festbier and Dortmunder Export. It's not a Marzen at all.

German Marzens and American Oktoberfests are good winter beers. I should probably buy a case of them too for the holidays before the disappear for the year.

 

[TheMadKing]

Interesting. Can you give a reference/source here? Helles in 1810 seems a bit early to me - wasn't Pilsner invented only in 1842?

I wanted to come back and correct this because you're 100% right that my memory butchered the timeline of the "origin legend" of Oktoberfest beers and I apologize

I reviewed my book and Krennmair actually agrees closely with what beermeister posted in his article:

The original beer served at King Ludwigs wedding was a brown colored Munich Lagerbier due to the kilning technology of the time. (He has a modern homebrew clone recipe that looks tasty)

In 1872 (62 years later) there was the hot summer, where all of the Sommerbier was consumed quickly. He never specifies a color for Sommerbier so that was an assumption on my part. Anywhoo due to the Sommerbier being consumed earlier than normal, one of the breweries had a store of March (Marzen) beer that was stronger than the Sommerbier but not as strong or as dark as the Winterbier. So Marzen was first served in 1872 and became traditional until 1970 when Festbier was invented to replace it, yadda yadda

So full circle and to whack this dead horse one final time:

Oktoberfestbier is the generic term for whatever beer is served by the breweries allowed at the Munich Oktoberfest on the Weisn

From 1810 to 1872 the primary Oktoberfestbier was probably dark brown Munich Lagerbier
From 1872 to 1970 the primary Oktoberfestbier was Marzen
From 1970 to present the primary Oktoberfestbier has been Festbier

Americans are confused by all this (naturally) and so we just use the generic term Oktoberfest for something vaguely german and served in the fall. 95% of the time they are referring to an American interpretation of a Marzen. There are some American breweries that are brewing more of a Festbier style and still calling it Oktoberfest. It's all very confusing over here

 

[z-bob]

Americans are confused by all this (naturally) and so we just use the generic term Oktoberfest for something vaguely german and served in the fall. 95% of the time they are referring to an American interpretation of a Marzen. There are some American breweries that are brewing more of a Festbier style and still calling it Oktoberfest. It's all very confusing over here

Some of those American beers are really good, even if only vaguely German. Goose Island's Oktoberfest this year is good; only a little too sweet -- it's pretty close to Paulaner's and Pschorr's version. And Leinenkugel's has done a collaboration brew with Hoffbrau Munich this year that they don't call an Oktoberfest but is a very nice dry amber German-ish lager better than some of the German originals. (just when I think Leinie's has abandoned making good beer and gone all-in on shandies, "berry weiss", and other girly fruit beers they hit one out of the park)

 

[couchsending]

Sadly one of the biggest issues but rarely discussed is ingredients and their quality.

Weyermann exports 90% of their malt. They’ve done a great job convincing the global market that you need to use Weyermann products to make the best German beer which is funny when it’s not really used there. They can get more money for their product outside of their own country. If you haven’t tried Ireks I’d give it a shot. I’ve found the Best and Avangard pils malt we get here in the US to be pretty terrible in terms of flavor.

Hops. Homebrew level hops are often times the bottom of the barrel. German processing equipment and overall practices have improved in recent years but often times still lag behind other parts of the globe when it comes to preserving the quality of the end product. When homebrewers here in the US get our hands on them they are often a shell of their former self. In my experience Hop Head farms had the best quality German varieties available in Homebrew size quantities here in the US.

 

[Brooothru]

Sadly one of the biggest issues but really discussed is ingredients and their quality.

Weyermann exports 90% of their malt. They’ve done a great job convincing the global market that you need to use Weyermann products to make the best German beer which is funny when it’s not really used there. They can get more money for their product outside of their own country. If you haven’t tried Ireks I’d give it a shot. I’ve found the Best and Avangard pils malt we get here in the US to be pretty terrible in terms of flavor.

Hops. Homebrew level hops are often times the bottom of the barrel. German processing equipment and overall practice have improved in recent years but often times still lag behind other parts of the globe when it comes to preserving the quality of the end product. When homebrewers here in the US get our hands on them they are often a shell of their former self. In my experience Hop Head farms had the best quality German varieties available in Homebrew size quantities here in the US.

Thanks for the recommendation for Hop Heads. Where do you find Ireks stateside. I typically default to Weyermann and Best (over Briess domestic), but would like to do some comparative brewing with Ireks.

 

[couchsending]

Thanks for the recommendation for Hop Heads. Where do you find Ireks stateside. I typically default to Weyermann and Best (over Briess domestic), but would like to do some comparative brewing with Ireks.

I’ve only found one place online to order it in the US. It’s somewhere in Texas. Comes up when you Google search. It’s been a while since I looked honestly.

 

[Brooothru]

I’ve only found one place online to order it in the US. It’s somewhere in Texas. Comes up when you Google search. It’s been a while since I looked honestly.

Found it! Also MaltWerks in Chicago, which would be closer for shipping. Thanks.

 

[Bassman2003]

I have been using Ireks for a while. I get it at Texas Brewing. It used to be super cheap but has gone up a bit in price ending up in line with other brands

 

[Bassman2003]

How do you think Hop Head Farms compares to Hops Direct for German varieties and US varieties as well? They both grow their own US hops and they both import the German varieties. I usually place an order that lasts a year or two with a mix of US and Euro hops. Thanks.