American craft brew versions of European styles

[Zwerg]

I am a big fan of German and English beer styles. I drink a lot of imports, but I've noticed that a lot of American craft breweries are moving away from their IPA obsession and brewing more and more German-style lagers. I also make an effort to try stouts, milds, bitters, etc., when I see them brewed by local breweries.

With a few exceptions (Trumer Pils, for example, which originated in Austria), these beers taste very different to me from their European versions, and I don't know why - none of them can seem to get the quality of softness and smoothness of flavor, instead there is always a sort of hard edge and a certain specific flavor that I can't quite pin down. My best guess is that it's either the character of American barley, or something to do with the hardness of the water, but I don't know much about either so these are just guesses. Although the flavor has a sort of metallic bitterness, I'm inclined to think it's the malt and not the water, because it's such a strong and distinctive flavor.

I live in the SF Bay Area and most of the breweries I'm talking about are local, although I'm drinking a (very good) Schwazbier from Heater Allen (Oregon) at the moment, and I'm noticing the same thing.

Does anyone know what this could be? I know German brewers for example go through years of education and are extremely precise in their methods, something I don't think is shared by most American craft brewers, but I still don't know if that really explains it.

 

[VikeMan]

I drink a lot of imports, but I've noticed that a lot of American craft breweries are moving away from their IPA obsession and brewing more and more German-style lagers.

A lot? Where do you live?

I live in the SF Bay Area and most of the breweries I'm talking about are local, although I'm drinking a (very good) Schwazbier from Heater Allen (Oregon) at the moment, and I'm noticing the same thing.

Interesting. I haven't really noticed any trend toward german styles on the other coast.

With a few exceptions (Trumer Pils, for example, which originated in Austria), these beers taste very different to me from their European versions, and I don't know why - none of them can seem to get the quality of softness and smoothness of flavor, instead there is always a sort of hard edge and a certain specific flavor that I can't quite pin down. My best guess is that it's either the character of American barley, or something to do with the hardness of the water, but I don't know much about either so these are just guesses. Although the flavor has a sort of metallic bitterness, I'm inclined to think it's the malt and not the water, because it's such a strong and distinctive flavor.

The thing is, american craft brewers can use german ingredients, including malts, if they want. Some do and some don't. One thing I've noticed with lots of amberish-colored american brewed german style lagers is a sort of aldheyde flavor/aroma, similar to acetaldehyde ("green apple"), but not exactly. In every case where I've been able to ascertain the malts used, these aldehyde-y beers used a Briess Munich malt. Never, not even once in any of these cases (where I could find out) did one of them use german munich. Now it could be coincidence, but if it is, its a wild one. Full disclosure...I have a friend (who is also a homebrewer) who does not notice this off-flavor at all. So maybe it's a threshold or perception/interpretation thing. For the record, I use a lot of Briess malts, but not in my german style beers, and not their munich in any style.

I personally wouldn't describe the thing I'm tasting as a "metallic bitterness," but who knows, maybe it's related to what you're tasting.

 

[dmtaylor]

Every US brewer is different. Some make outstanding lagers that I could not distinguish from imports. Others make garbage. Many others make something in between. I cannot and will not even try to generalize differences between US-brewed lagers and imports. We run the full spectrum here. I do seek out great lagers and have found many dozens of great ones. I have also found tons more that are only mediocre. The causes of which, like I said, too broad to define.

 

[Sammy86]

With a few exceptions (Trumer Pils, for example, which originated in Austria), these beers taste very different to me from their European versions, and I don't know why - none of them can seem to get the quality of softness and smoothness of flavor, instead there is always a sort of hard edge and a certain specific flavor that I can't quite pin down.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…it’s all about the ingredients, water and yeast. I can definitely understand when you say they taste different, I have yet to find a domestic kolsch that tastes like a German imported one. I contribute the big differences to the water and yeast, those proprietary yeasts used for 100’s of years just add that traditional touch at least IMO.

 

[mashpaddled]

Water has a lot to do with the quality of those beers. Many breweries in Europe brew from well water that has been used by that brewery or others in the area for decades or longer. Those styles were designed and dialed in with that water in mind. They know how to work with the water to make it useful for their needs. As homebrewers we have a lot of flexibility to filter aggressively or even build up from RO but for professional brewers that is typically not feasible. They have to work with what they have.

We also cannot overlook generally that as consumers the marketing magic of ancient European breweries can influence our impression of beers, or that the import process adds time that may lend something you find appealing over a beer that has spent less time in a hot cargo container or warehouse.

 

[Zwerg]

A lot? Where do you live?



Interesting. I haven't really noticed any trend toward german styles on the other coast.



The thing is, american craft brewers can use german ingredients, including malts, if they want. Some do and some don't. One thing I've noticed with lots of amberish-colored american brewed german style lagers is a sort of aldheyde flavor/aroma, similar to acetaldehyde ("green apple"), but not exactly. In every case where I've been able to ascertain the malts used, these aldehyde-y beers used a Briess Munich malt. Never, not even once in any of these cases (where I could find out) did one of them use german munich. Now it could be coincidence, but if it is, its a wild one. Full disclosure...I have a friend (who is also a homebrewer) who does not notice this off-flavor at all. So maybe it's a threshold or perception/interpretation thing. For the record, I use a lot of Briess malts, but not in my german style beers, and not their munich in any style.

I personally wouldn't describe the thing I'm tasting as a "metallic bitterness," but who knows, maybe it's related to what you're tasting.

Well, maybe not a LOT, but it's definitely a trend I've noticed out here. IPAs still dominate but there are interesting developments in other directions. Your aldehyde idea is interesting, that could be what I'm talking about. I don't think these brewers are considering this to be an "off" flavor, since it's so consistent.

 

[Zwerg]

Water has a lot to do with the quality of those beers. Many breweries in Europe brew from well water that has been used by that brewery or others in the area for decades or longer. Those styles were designed and dialed in with that water in mind. They know how to work with the water to make it useful for their needs. As homebrewers we have a lot of flexibility to filter aggressively or even build up from RO but for professional brewers that is typically not feasible. They have to work with what they have.

We also cannot overlook generally that as consumers the marketing magic of ancient European breweries can influence our impression of beers, or that the import process adds time that may lend something you find appealing over a beer that has spent less time in a hot cargo container or warehouse.

Yes, I wonder how much the power of those ancient brands is affecting my judgment. And your point about freshness is a good one too - I haven't gone to Bavaria to drink those beers at their freshest.

Still, my feeling is it's either water, malt, or even maybe even brewing technique... I know for example that German pilsners tend to use sauergut, and I assume (though I don't know) that American brewers can't be bothered with this and lots of other small technical steps.

 

[mscroggi]

Still, my feeling is it's either water, malt, or even maybe even brewing technique... I know for example that German pilsners tend to use sauergut, and I assume (though I don't know) that American brewers can't be bothered with this and lots of other small technical steps.

I am not sure you should expect that the tastes would be the same if the same exact recipe was brewed in two different places in the world. There are way too many factors. To explain the differences with the notion that the American brewers are just too lazy to achieve the same results is ridiculous. There are beers in Belgium that would be difficult to replicate anywhere else, because the brewers have been recycling their spent grains into the soils of adjacent farmlands for centuries, and the resultant airborne yeasts are used in fermentation via very low tech processes.

American brewers like to tinker with unique concepts and techniques creating different slants on old styles. Eventually the slants become a whole new style themselves. I LOVE that. It takes a while for new styles to become included and appreciated, but it usually gets there. European Beer Competitions

For me, I relish the idea that we make our own..

 

[Zwerg]

I am not sure you should expect that the tastes would be the same if the same exact recipe was brewed in two different places in the world. There are way too many factors. To explain the differences with the notion that the American brewers are just too lazy to achieve the same results is ridiculous. There are beers in Belgium that would be difficult to replicate anywhere else, because the brewers have been recycling their spent grains into the soils of adjacent farmlands for centuries, and the resultant airborne yeasts are used in fermentation via very low tech processes.

American brewers like to tinker with unique concepts and techniques creating different slants on old styles. Eventually the slants become a whole new style themselves. I LOVE that. It takes a while for new styles to become included and appreciated, but it usually gets there. European Beer Competitions

For me, I relish the idea that we make our own..

Not really trying to criticize American brewers, it's not that they're lazy. But I've been led to believe (mostly from my own reading) that German brewers are obsessive and single-minded about traditional technique and hyper-precision in a way that I think most US craft brewers, who spend the majority of their time brewing ales anyway, aren't (and don't care to be). I'm not sure how much this explains what I'm talking about but I think it's probably true. German brewers all go to school for it and treat it like an engineering degree, US craft brewers fall into it from all kinds of different directions.

Different slants on old styles - that's fine, but that isn't really what I'm talking about - these are mostly represented as within the classic definition of the style, there's just something "American" about them that I find pretty consistent, at least on the West Coast.

 

[Protos]

I'm drinking a (very good) Schwazbier from Heater Allen (Oregon) at the moment, and I'm noticing the same thing.

There is a nice lively discussion exactly on the Schwarzbier style. Some History Buffs and Schwarzbier Polizisten are claiming the traditional Lagers should be brewed strictly in a traditional way or else they shouldn't be exploiting the traditional names while more knowledgeable members state that a Lager is perfectly good to be called a Schwarzbier as long as it's black whatever's the grist and the process.
You may well be drinking a German-American Dark Lager, not a Schwarzbier. You never know which of the two parties stands behind the brewing process

 

[madscientist451]

Years ago, you could get Kolsch malt from Schill, which was a German producer. I noticed a big difference when I used that malt, more malty "German" character. Schill was bought out by Weyermann and they produce a "Cologne" malt, but I don't know if its the same.
I would suspect that most US "craft" brewers won't go to the trouble and expense to use German/Czech malts for the small amount of drinkers that are actually going to notice the difference. US/Canadian barley is just way cheaper than European imports. The flavors you get from the variety of barley, the malting/kilning methods and even the growing conditions are all going to be different. For example, some Belgian breweries use special barley from France and some German brewers only use special barley that is grown locally for them.
If you haven't tried Weyermann Floor malted or Barke pilsner or the Cologne malts, give them a try and see if you get closer to the flavors you are looking for.
Also, there are many small US maltsters that are using special barley for their pilsner malt, perhaps give those a try.