That German Lager taste

[burtom]

German ingredients and LODO be damned. As a great brewer, he has to be a great brewer because he said so and he would know, on this very forum once said, "You can't brew REAL BEER without mashing sheetrock!!!".

The above may be a paraphrase or not even close as it has been awhile since I read that thread.

 

[Pablo 54]

Judas Priest. That was an interesting ride. One thing I learned, I thought I was doing LODO but in reality I just really like the convenience of pressure transferring my lagers after a completely sealed cold crash.

Speaking of LODO......
For the people here who either currently live in Germany or have spent some time there, I took this picture in Berlin, June of 2014. I watched this guy for about 15 minutes and it looked to me that he was simply pumping beer into some holding device in the restaurant.
Is this a common practice in Germany for transferring bulk amounts of beer? I didn't see one keg or one bottle or one can enter the establishment.

For a person like me who is not a true LODO brewer, would this be a logical end step for transferring a beer brewed under strict LODO conditions?

 

[Bilsch]

For a person like me who is not a true LODO brewer, would this be a logical end step for transferring a beer brewed under strict LODO conditions?

Tank beer is becoming more popular in Europe as it has been for a while in Czech Rep. Believe it or not this Tankovna method provides for even less oxidative damage and thermal stress then keg transport and storage. In the recieving tank there is an oxygen barrier bag that is replaced each filling ensuring sanitation but more importantly the beer is dispensed by pressurizing the outside of this tank liner thus nothing in the CO2 can come in contract with and damage the beer. Also the perfect level of carbonation is maintained. I'm told that after the bag is replaced and the hose from the truck is connected, a vacuum is pulled from the truck collapsing the bladder and de-aerating the transfer line.

 

[Pablo 54]

Thank you, Bilsch. That was way more interesting than I originally thought. This has to be more efficient then filling dozens or hundreds of kegs.

 

[Bilsch]

Thank you, Bilsch. That was way more interesting than I originally thought. This has to be more efficient then filling dozens or hundreds of kegs.

You bet. Most Tankovna are 500 liters and many bars have 4 to 6 of them. The biggest advantage in my mind is the taste of the beer. It really best replicates drinking straight from the lagering tanks at the brewery.

 

[Beermeister32]

I think this has been one of my favorite threads, lots of great info here. The one thing I might add is the benefit of aging most lager styles. Two or three months lagering COLD in a keg turns a good beer great!

Also, I was under the understanding that “Marzens” (traditionally March beers designed for aging all summer) was the main category. So traditional Oktoberfest, Festbiers and American Oktoberfest were all sub-categories of Marzens. Festbiers being lighter and easy drinking but still considered Marzens.

 

[dmtaylor]

traditional Oktoberfest, Festbiers and American Oktoberfest were all sub-categories of Marzens. Festbiers being lighter and easy drinking but still considered Marzens.

I think these three sub-styles are all completely different beasts. Festbier especially is nowhere near a traditional Marzen, not in the slightest.

 

[TheMadKing]

Also, I was under the understanding that “Marzens” (traditionally March beers designed for aging all summer) was the main category. So traditional Oktoberfest, Festbiers and American Oktoberfest were all sub-categories of Marzens. Festbiers being lighter and easy drinking but still considered Marzens.

I think you have that a bit backwards... Putting BJCP' invented categories aside entirely

Oktoberfestbier is just whatever beer is served at Oktoberfest in Munich. In the past it was Marzen (which legend says was an accident), today it has evolved into the modern Paulaner creation of Festbier. So Marzen and Festbier are both Oktoberfestbiers.

The first Oktoberfest celebration was a wedding reception for King Ludwig and they had intended to serve pale lager bier (Helles), but it had been a hot summer and they ran out of Helles. So they tapped the next largest supply of beer they had, which happened to be the brown beer brewed in March which had been stored all summer and was intended for the winter beer. It became tradition because of that twist of fate

Paulaner in (I believe the 1980's) invented the Festbier to replace the Marzen and be "more poundable".

 

[monkeymath]

The first Oktoberfest celebration was a wedding reception for King Ludwig and they had intended to serve pale lager bier (Helles), but it had been a hot summer and they ran out of Helles. So they tapped the next largest supply of beer they had, which happened to be the brown beer brewed in March which had been stored all summer and was intended for the winter beer. It became tradition because of that twist of fate.

Interesting. Can you give a reference/source here? Helles in 1810 seems a bit early to me - wasn't Pilsner invented only in 1842?

 

[TheMadKing]

Interesting. Can you give a reference/source here? Helles in 1810 seems a bit early to me - wasn't Pilsner invented only in 1842?

Historical German and Austrian Biers for the HomeBrewer by Andreas Krennmair

I was going from memory and don't have the book in front of me. So it was supposed to be a pale yellow lower gravity beer called simply Sommerbier, so I was paraphrasing and Helles was a suitable stand-in.

 

[Beermeister32]

Here’s a really good description of the types and circumstances:

https://www.craftbeering.com/oktoberfest-vs-marzen-oktoberfest-style-beer/

 

[z-bob]

Hoffbrau O'festbier is one of my favorite beers; it is the among lightest colored of the beers actually served in Munich (it is likely *the* lightest, but I haven't sampled all of them), and the strongest. I'm drinking one right now, bought from Costco. I don't think there's a nickel's worth of difference between a Festbier and Dortmunder Export. It's not a Marzen at all.

German Marzens and American Oktoberfests are good winter beers. I should probably buy a case of them too for the holidays before the disappear for the year.

 

[TheMadKing]

Interesting. Can you give a reference/source here? Helles in 1810 seems a bit early to me - wasn't Pilsner invented only in 1842?

I wanted to come back and correct this because you're 100% right that my memory butchered the timeline of the "origin legend" of Oktoberfest beers and I apologize

I reviewed my book and Krennmair actually agrees closely with what beermeister posted in his article:

The original beer served at King Ludwigs wedding was a brown colored Munich Lagerbier due to the kilning technology of the time. (He has a modern homebrew clone recipe that looks tasty)

In 1872 (62 years later) there was the hot summer, where all of the Sommerbier was consumed quickly. He never specifies a color for Sommerbier so that was an assumption on my part. Anywhoo due to the Sommerbier being consumed earlier than normal, one of the breweries had a store of March (Marzen) beer that was stronger than the Sommerbier but not as strong or as dark as the Winterbier. So Marzen was first served in 1872 and became traditional until 1970 when Festbier was invented to replace it, yadda yadda

So full circle and to whack this dead horse one final time:

Oktoberfestbier is the generic term for whatever beer is served by the breweries allowed at the Munich Oktoberfest on the Weisn

From 1810 to 1872 the primary Oktoberfestbier was probably dark brown Munich Lagerbier
From 1872 to 1970 the primary Oktoberfestbier was Marzen
From 1970 to present the primary Oktoberfestbier has been Festbier

Americans are confused by all this (naturally) and so we just use the generic term Oktoberfest for something vaguely german and served in the fall. 95% of the time they are referring to an American interpretation of a Marzen. There are some American breweries that are brewing more of a Festbier style and still calling it Oktoberfest. It's all very confusing over here

 

[z-bob]

Americans are confused by all this (naturally) and so we just use the generic term Oktoberfest for something vaguely german and served in the fall. 95% of the time they are referring to an American interpretation of a Marzen. There are some American breweries that are brewing more of a Festbier style and still calling it Oktoberfest. It's all very confusing over here

Some of those American beers are really good, even if only vaguely German. Goose Island's Oktoberfest this year is good; only a little too sweet -- it's pretty close to Paulaner's and Pschorr's version. And Leinenkugel's has done a collaboration brew with Hoffbrau Munich this year that they don't call an Oktoberfest but is a very nice dry amber German-ish lager better than some of the German originals. (just when I think Leinie's has abandoned making good beer and gone all-in on shandies, "berry weiss", and other girly fruit beers they hit one out of the park)

 

[couchsending]

Sadly one of the biggest issues but rarely discussed is ingredients and their quality.

Weyermann exports 90% of their malt. They’ve done a great job convincing the global market that you need to use Weyermann products to make the best German beer which is funny when it’s not really used there. They can get more money for their product outside of their own country. If you haven’t tried Ireks I’d give it a shot. I’ve found the Best and Avangard pils malt we get here in the US to be pretty terrible in terms of flavor.

Hops. Homebrew level hops are often times the bottom of the barrel. German processing equipment and overall practices have improved in recent years but often times still lag behind other parts of the globe when it comes to preserving the quality of the end product. When homebrewers here in the US get our hands on them they are often a shell of their former self. In my experience Hop Head farms had the best quality German varieties available in Homebrew size quantities here in the US.

 

[Broothru]

Sadly one of the biggest issues but really discussed is ingredients and their quality.

Weyermann exports 90% of their malt. They’ve done a great job convincing the global market that you need to use Weyermann products to make the best German beer which is funny when it’s not really used there. They can get more money for their product outside of their own country. If you haven’t tried Ireks I’d give it a shot. I’ve found the Best and Avangard pils malt we get here in the US to be pretty terrible in terms of flavor.

Hops. Homebrew level hops are often times the bottom of the barrel. German processing equipment and overall practice have improved in recent years but often times still lag behind other parts of the globe when it comes to preserving the quality of the end product. When homebrewers here in the US get our hands on them they are often a shell of their former self. In my experience Hop Head farms had the best quality German varieties available in Homebrew size quantities here in the US.

Thanks for the recommendation for Hop Heads. Where do you find Ireks stateside. I typically default to Weyermann and Best (over Briess domestic), but would like to do some comparative brewing with Ireks.

 

[couchsending]

Thanks for the recommendation for Hop Heads. Where do you find Ireks stateside. I typically default to Weyermann and Best (over Briess domestic), but would like to do some comparative brewing with Ireks.

I’ve only found one place online to order it in the US. It’s somewhere in Texas. Comes up when you Google search. It’s been a while since I looked honestly.

 

[Broothru]

I’ve only found one place online to order it in the US. It’s somewhere in Texas. Comes up when you Google search. It’s been a while since I looked honestly.

Found it! Also MaltWerks in Chicago, which would be closer for shipping. Thanks.

 

[Bassman2003]

I have been using Ireks for a while. I get it at Texas Brewing. It used to be super cheap but has gone up a bit in price ending up in line with other brands

 

[Bassman2003]

How do you think Hop Head Farms compares to Hops Direct for German varieties and US varieties as well? They both grow their own US hops and they both import the German varieties. I usually place an order that lasts a year or two with a mix of US and Euro hops. Thanks.

 

[Protos]

If you haven’t tried Ireks I’d give it a shot.

I would humbly say that in my experience the difference between Weyermann and Ireks base malts is almost non-existant, and if existant, then Weyermann tastes a tiny bit better. YMMV.

 

[Pablo 54]

Well, since I am literally out of base malt right now and I'm not brewing for a few weeks, I am going to try some Ireks Premium Pilsen Malt and use it in a hefe and a pilsner. I reckon I've used 4 or 5 producers over the years but have mainly stuck with Avangard since that's what my LHBS stocks.

 

[duncan.brown]

Weyermann exports 90% of their malt. They’ve done a great job convincing the global market that you need to use Weyermann products to make the best German beer which is funny when it’s not really used there. They can get more money for their product outside of their own country. If you haven’t tried Ireks I’d give it a shot. I’ve found the Best and Avangard pils malt we get here in the US to be pretty terrible in terms of flavor.

Has anyone tried Cargill German Pilsner? I got a sack from Northern Brewer a few years ago (they just listed it as “German Pilsner,” I figured out it was Cargill from the malt analysis bill). The helles it made was fantastic.

I haven’t had it since as my LHBS sticks Wyermann and I like to support them. Maybe I’ll give it another go.

 

[couchsending]

I would humbly say that in my experience the difference between Weyermann and Ireks base malts is almost non-existant, and if existant, then Weyermann tastes a tiny bit better. YMMV.

we will agree to disagree

I will say that the fact that Ireks is 9-10 cents less per pound makes it rather easy to swing in their direction

 

[couchsending]

Had to buy a sack of Avangard Vienna to finish off a Kolsch recipe due to a shortage from the supplier. The difference between the Ireks Vienna and Avangard was mind blowing to me

 

[Bobby_M]

Any reason for not using the YOS method instead of boiling? to me at least it is far less work.

One data point. When I started YOS, every single one of my beers (about 12 batches) had a chill haze problem. When I stopped YOS, the beers went back to brilliant again. Again, one data point, carry on.

 

[Toxxyc]

I want to jump in here as well, because I also love this taste you guys are hunting. I've only managed to hit that taste twice before. Once with a Helles I made, that was lagered for 2 months, and made with Perle hops. I mashed it in the middle of the low end, at 64°C, and did a 90 minute boil (yes, yes, I know, not needed). I did a 30 minute boil with no hop additions, and then 60 minutes with bittering hops (Perle) and then with more Perle at 5 minutes for flavour. The beer was VERY "meh" a month or so after kegging, but started to shine the longer it stood in the keg.

For me, personally, with a sensitive palette toward yeast, the beer improved as it cleared. The last bit from the keg included some yeast and it immediately tasted green in the glass again, so I'm 100% certain that clearer lagers will give you more of "that" flavour.

The other one I made was a "moerby" Pilsner. "Moer by" being an Afrikaans term for "throw together" and I don't even remember the recipe. I do know I used Saaz in the end of the boil, and mashed super, super low (I think 62°). I fermented it with a generic German Pilsner yeast from a local homebrew shop that since got really expensive, so I'm not going to try it again, but man it was a good beer. It also started to shine after 2 months in the bottle, but I also overshot the colour quite a bit.

So yes, what I've learned:

1. Use the correct hops.
2. Use a lager yeast. Any lager yeast.
3. Give it time.
4. Clear/fine the beer as much as you can.
5. Mash low. As mentioned, the style is typically quite dry.

 

[Broothru]

One data point. When I started YOS, every single one of my beers (about 12 batches) had a chill haze problem. When I stopped YOS, the beers went back to brilliant again. Again, one data point, carry on.

That's really weird, Bobby.

I've probably done at least twice as many brew sessions as that recently (24 in the last 10~12 months) and NONE have had chill haze issues. In fact, I'd say that clarity has vastly improved. I haven't used a post fermentation clarifier like Biofine or even gelatin in over a year. There must be some crazy obscure water chemistry issue going on between your water and mine.

I do like clearer beer as a general rule, but I don't obsess over it, so I usually am satisfied to just let temperature and time (as well as Top Draw floating dip tubes) take care of the clarity. I do use BrewTanB in a 'Trifecta' blend in the mash and late boil ( :05 minutes before adding Whirlfloc) which supposedly precipitates gallotannins and I think some proteins in the kettle which might be mitigating my chill haze. YOS certainly leaves my strike water milky white and cloudy, but by the time the mash is completed the wort is extremely clear due to recirculation through the grain bed, kinda' like a continuous 90 minute Vorlauf.

Cheers!

 

[Oleson M.D.]

I have been using Ireks for a while. I get it at Texas Brewing. It used to be super cheap but has gone up a bit in price ending up in line with other brands

This is where we buy all of our malt.
https://www.txbrewing.com/And we have used Ireks for a long time, very satisfied with the results. Free shipping on orders over $50 (I think).

 

[Broothru]

I want to jump in here as well, because I also love this taste you guys are hunting. I've only managed to hit that taste twice before. Once with a Helles I made, that was lagered for 2 months, and made with Perle hops. I mashed it in the middle of the low end, at 64°C, and did a 90 minute boil (yes, yes, I know, not needed). I did a 30 minute boil with no hop additions, and then 60 minutes with bittering hops (Perle) and then with more Perle at 5 minutes for flavour. The beer was VERY "meh" a month or so after kegging, but started to shine the longer it stood in the keg.

For me, personally, with a sensitive palette toward yeast, the beer improved as it cleared. The last bit from the keg included some yeast and it immediately tasted green in the glass again, so I'm 100% certain that clearer lagers will give you more of "that" flavour.

The other one I made was a "moerby" Pilsner. "Moer by" being an Afrikaans term for "throw together" and I don't even remember the recipe. I do know I used Saaz in the end of the boil, and mashed super, super low (I think 62°). I fermented it with a generic German Pilsner yeast from a local homebrew shop that since got really expensive, so I'm not going to try it again, but man it was a good beer. It also started to shine after 2 months in the bottle, but I also overshot the colour quite a bit.

So yes, what I've learned:

1. Use the correct hops.
2. Use a lager yeast. Any lager yeast.
3. Give it time.
4. Clear/fine the beer as much as you can.
5. Mash low. As mentioned, the style is typically quite dry.

Interesting observation. I recently had a Helles in a comp that I had high hopes for in the judging. It got HAMMERED instead in the first round and didn't advance. I had some serious disagreement with the criticisms and 'corrections' suggested by the two judges (one "certified" and one "apprentice") whose sheets looked like carbon copies of each other, but it is what it was and I'm trying to move on from the setback and ego bruise.

The grist was 90% floor malted pilsner, 8% Light Munich and 2% CaraHell, step mashed Hoch-Kurz; Hallertau Magnum FWH and Hallertau Mittelfruh at :15 minutes; Augustiner WLP-860 fermented @ 50F to completion, spunded to 12 psi, pressure transferred to a purged keg and lagered for 6 weeks at 38F. Shoulda' been a contender, EXCEPT it didn't get lagered long enough. It's been over three months now, and I pulled a pint last night. I don't think it's my imagination, but it IS tasting better. The original clarity was judged "brilliant" and it still is, but I'm starting to almost agree with the judges that there was a "green" characteristic (they both called it "green apple", which I interpreted as "Jolly Rancher green apple candy", and found blatantly wrong).

I wish I'd started brewing that beer at least a month earlier to let it settle longer. I didn't use Biofine since the visual clarity was so good, but if I had I think it would have presented as a much more refined beer. For me the take-away is your Steps #3 and #4: Give it time, and clarify as much as you can. And "clarity" involves more than just visual appearance.