That German Lager taste

[Lupulus]

You are aware that oxidation is not limited to oxygen right? While I'm not able to read every single one of these articles right now, half of them imply something new, so they cannot be the reason for already existing "German taste", while others are talking about oxidation via enzymes, however that might work, and the last one talks about ascorbic acid, which is not used during German beer production, cannot be the reason either.

And then, there are plenty of small breweries that make marvelous beer, with nothing but traditional methods and their beer tastes incredibly German, whatever that taste might be. These guys don't use lodo stuff.

We don't need your new beer religion here in Germany to brew good beer .

You don't need to read any articles (it was an answer to a question). Narziss has done all the work for you. Narziss describes well the different options, including low and high oxygen, low and high TBA index and how to manage each process.
You are right that there are many small German breweries that don't do low oxygen in the hot side (specially in Franconia).
It's also right that ALL German breweries concerned about flavor stability do low oxygen.
Taste is a subjective opinion and each one of us has one.
My opinion:
In general, well-made beers non LODO beers benefit from decoction and a higher finishing gravity. The malt taste is many times a "caramelly" finish with melanoidin notes. For me, it works better in Dunkel styles, ie Schlenkerla Märzen, a favorite of mine.
Well-made LODO beers work better for pale styles, and with very attenuated beers. They have more malt complexity, keeping hay and complex honey notes (that disappear otherwise). Work specially well in Munich Helles, Pilsners and generally all beers that use a sauergut pH drop at the end of the boil to improve crispness.
Prost!

 

[Miraculix]

You don't need to read any articles (it was an answer to a question). Narziss has done all the work for you. Narziss describes well the different options, including low and high oxygen, low and high TBA index and how to manage each process.
You are right that there are many small German breweries that don't do low oxygen in the hot side (specially in Franconia).
It's also right that ALL German breweries concerned about flavor stability do low oxygen.
Taste is a subjective opinion and each one of us has one.
My opinion:
In general, well-made beers non LODO beers benefit from decoction and a higher finishing gravity. The malt taste is many times a "caramelly" finish with melanoidin notes. For me, it works better in Dunkel styles, ie Schlenkerla Märzen, a favorite of mine.
Well-made LODO beers work better for pale styles, and with very attenuated beers. They have more malt complexity, keeping hay and complex honey notes (that disappear otherwise). Work specially well in Munich Helles, Pilsners and generally all beers that use a sauergut pH drop at the end of the boil to improve crispness.
Prost!

Yes. Wouldn't want to argue against it (ok, the ALL breweries part sounds a bit too generalized).

And as the initial question was "what gets you that German lager taste?", We can happily exclude lodo from the "necessary things/steps to get German lager taste"-list.

 

[Lupulus]

That is true. We should keep in mind that the "German beer flavour" was probably already there before the 80s or 70s, when did this lodo thing start?

The Narziss 1986 review paper "Technological factors of Flavour Stability" is a good starting point for the tide change at large breweries. Engineers trained at Weihenstephan started driving equipment modifications around that time.
I would propose not using the "German Flavor" again. When originally used a few years ago, it was a reference to pale, well attenuated, crisp German beers with evident sauergut aroma notes. I understand now how it may offend German brewers that don't chase this flavor.

We need to move forward from these discussions once and for all.

Most beer (by beer volume, not breweries) world-wide is presently brewed with LODO brew houses, because of flavor stability needs. Sierra Nevada recently moved to LODO.

Yet, many small brewers don't package and are happy with and proud of their beer brewed with their traditional non LODO process.

There's room for both. Let's move on.

And for hobby brewers, choose your own path. But do remember the square cube law and the impact it can have in both mashing and boiling processes.

Happy brewing!

 

[Lupulus]

This kinds of reminds me of a fruitful discussion that happened on this site a bit more than a year ago.... If I recall correctly I think it had something to do with whether German breweries de-areate their water for the brewhouse or not...

BTW
The answer is:
Most beer world-wide, by volume, is brewed with de-aereated water. Over 90% for sure.
By brewery, I don't know, but won't be surprised if most breweries don't de-aereate.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Question on that "sauergut aroma/flavor":

Are we sure this is from sauergut? I get that white wine thing from many beers brewed predominantly with pilsner malt, and have come to accept it as just a quality of good pilsner malt. I get it in my pilsners as well, though that could obviously be bias.

I'd be curious to know if Urquell is using sauergut, because (to me anyway) Pils Urquell has that flavor the most by a large margin.

You'd also think that if the sauergut flavor was able to survive through the mash and boil, that kettle sours would be absolute grape bombs, which, to me anyway, they are not.

 

[Miraculix]

The Narziss 1986 review paper "Technological factors of Flavour Stability" is a good starting point for the tide change at large breweries. Engineers trained at Weihenstephan started driving equipment modifications around that time.
I would propose not using the "German Flavor" again. When originally used a few years ago, it was a reference to pale, well attenuated, crisp German beers with evident sauergut aroma notes. I understand now how it may offend German brewers that don't chase this flavor.

We need to move forward from these discussions once and for all.

Most beer (by beer volume, not breweries) world-wide is presently brewed with LODO brew houses, because of flavor stability needs. Sierra Nevada recently moved to LODO.

Yet, many small brewers don't package and are happy with and proud of their beer brewed with their traditional non LODO process.

There's room for both. Let's move on.

And for hobby brewers, choose your own path. But do remember the square cube law and the impact it can have in both mashing and boiling processes.

Happy brewing!

I think the main problem is this generalisation of processes and their results, within the lodo crowd. Flavour stability, yes oxygen is probably the biggest problem (although there is far more there then just oxygen, don't want to open that can of worms now). And of course biggest breweries are well aware of that fact, but do we actually know at which step they avoid oxygen and how? Probably not.
Also, does that mean that we need to do this to get the initial flavour right? No also not, as this is about flavour stability on the long run and not about initial flavour.

So there is something like incomplete knowledge within the interwebs and people create their own thing out of it.

So I agree with you, it would be far more beneficial if we would just skip this whole lodo thing and talk about single processes/ steps and how they affect the results instead. This also includes oxygen avoidance strategies of course, if necessary.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

BTW
The answer is:
Most beer world-wide, by volume, is brewed with de-aereated water. Over 90% for sure.
By brewery, I don't know, but won't be surprised if most breweries don't de-aereate.

The funny thing is, after that infamous thread was closed, I got one last reply from my contact at Weihenstephan. He said something along the lines "given that I have better things to do than trying to convince a group of resistant craft brewers, I forwarded your inquiry to Mr. Narziss...maybe people will believe his word".
The reply from Mr. Narziss himself never came, beacuse he obviously has better things to do as well, especially at his age.
Or maybe he never replied because you are right, and my contact was either misinformed (very unlikely, given his position as head of the research brewery) or pulling my leg (more likely).
Anyway I'm not getting involved into something like this again, and for sure :-D
Happy brewing to you as well!

 

[Lupulus]

Question on that "sauergut aroma/flavor":

Are we sure this is from sauergut? I get that white wine thing from many beers brewed predominantly with pilsner malt, and have come to accept it as just a quality of good pilsner malt. I get it in my pilsners as well, though that could obviously be bias.

I'd be curious to know if Urquell is using sauergut, because (to me anyway) Pils Urquell has that flavor the most by a large margin.

You'd also think that if the sauergut flavor was able to survive through the mash and boil, that kettle sours would be absolute grape bombs, which, to me anyway, they are not.

Difficult to explain.
It's evident in Augustiner, Tegernsee and many large Munich breweries.
I didn't get it until I made it and compared it. I thought it was hops.

 

[Miraculix]

Difficult to explain.
It's evident in Augustiner, Tegernsee and many large Munich breweries.
I didn't get it until I made it and compared it. I thought it was hops.

I might try that one actually. Just to be able to taste it. Do you already taste the respective flavour from the resulting beer when trying the Sauergut itself, or does it change a lot during the brewing process?

 

[Lupulus]

I think the main problem is this generalisation of processes and their results, within the lodo crowd. Flavour stability, yes oxygen is probably the biggest problem (although there is far more there then just oxygen, don't want to open that can of worms now). And of course biggest breweries are well aware of that fact, but do we actually know at which step they avoid oxygen and how? Probably not.
Also, does that mean that we need to do this to get the initial flavour right? No also not, as this is about flavour stability on the long run and not about initial flavour.

So there is something like incomplete knowledge within the interwebs and people create their own thing out of it.

So I agree with you, it would be far more beneficial if we would just skip this whole lodo thing and talk about single processes/ steps and how they affect the results instead. This also includes oxygen avoidance strategies of course, if necessary.

I might try that one actually. Just to be able to taste it. Do you already taste the respective flavour from the resulting beer when trying the Sauergut itself, or does it change a lot during the brewing process?

Until I made my own SG, I thought it was a special way to process hops.
It's a flowery fresh smell.
Get an Augustiner at the Bräustuben. Whatever you get at the first smell is sauergut (and some sulfur ).
Make one, just for kicks...

 

[bwible]

That is true. I never did a decoction, but I was able to mimic the effect by using 5% melanoidin malt. Have you been able to compare both?

The problem I have with melanoidin malt is color. A little goes a long way. I only used 2 oz in a 3 gallon batch and it made the beer significantly darker than I was aiming for. I guess it works for amber lagers but I’m not going to use it again for anything that I want to be light colored, 4-5 SRM. Just a tiny bit will push you past that range.

 

[bwible]

I was just going over some of this myself. I’ve been trying to make lager recipes with ale yeast, and its just not the same.

Its a combination of factors.

- Water. You have to have the right minerals and right chloride to sulfate ratio. What I’m reading says your water should be 3:1 chloride to sulfate to brew lagers. You want lots of chloride and little sulfate.

- Pilsener malt. MO is ale malt. Pilsener malt is lager malt.

- Recipe. You’re not going to find biscuit malt, crystal malt, etc in German lager recipes.

- Process. As others have said, you can’t beat decoction.

- Balance. Malt to hops. Noble hops only.

- Yeast. Lager yeast has a slight sulphur character that ale yeast doesn’t produce. You have to handle the yeast properly, do the diacetyl rest, too, etc.

- Attenuation. You need a good attenuation to get that “crispness”.

- Lager/cold aging. Really lets the flavors round out and develop. It takes time and there is no substitute for time.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

In no particular order:

Wyeast 2206
WLP833
Lallemand Diamond Lager

These will all give you the absolute best lagers with "that German" flavor.

I agree, and will add in W-34/70 yeast.
Also Ireks and Weyermann malts are fantastic.
A triple step infusion mash will get you good results, for an authentic Euro-Lager.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

- Yeast. Lager yeast has a slight sulphur character that ale yeast doesn’t produce.

This is exactly what I was going to say when I read your first line. You can be as clean as you want with ale yeast (esp things like Lutra) and you wont get that "lager" character. Definitely tasty, but not "lager". Better for the darker lager styles if you're going to do it.

This is why I fell in love with Lalbrew Diamond Lager. It gives me just the perfect whisper of sulfur every time.

 

[Broothru]

Wow this went to the seventh ring of dante's inferno and back...

For a long time I sought the classic german lager flavor and aroma, I was always using german hallertauer region hops, continental pilsner malt, RO adjusted water etc. I didn't get there until I started using the Augustiner strain and really focused on getting great clarity, removing all of that yeast. I could get there with w34/70 and gelatin but it was never quite the same. It's remarkable how much just a bit of yeast covers the very nuanced flavors you reach at that final level.

So I am very patient with fermentation, use floating dip tube to rack off... no gelatin, just time and very very cold temps.

Augustiner for sure. Presently have a Helles on tap that used Augie. Cleared rapidly and completely to 'brilliant' clarity after less than 3 weeks at lagering temperature. No biofine, no gelatin, no fish bladders.

WLP-830 (aledgedly 34/70) has been my usual go-to dependable workhorse for lagers, but Augustiner has really impressed me with how clean the fermentation was in this Helles coupled with the remarkable clarity. This is 'clearly' one of the best lagers I've brewed.

Oh, and apologies to the non-believers. It was brewed with attention to LoDO processes.

 

[Miraculix]

Augustiner for sure. Presently have a Helles on tap that used Augie. Cleared rapidly and completely to 'brilliant' clarity after less than 3 weeks at lagering temperature. No biofine, no gelatin, no fish bladders.

WLP-830 (aledgedly 34/70) has been my usual go-to dependable workhorse for lagers, but Augustiner has really impressed me with how clean the fermentation was in this Helles coupled with the remarkable clarity. This is 'clearly' one of the best lagers I've brewed.

Oh, and apologies to the non-believers. It was brewed with attention to LoDO processes.

I'm currently trying that strain (Imperial yeast harvest) at room temperature in an American hops pilsener-ish type of beer. Looks clear in the fermenter after about 12 days, I'm bottling today, I'm really looking forward to trying the results.

And just to confuse people, s04 gives sulfur flavour when fermented too cold, I once made a pretty convincing pseudo lager with it by accident. Apparently, it can easily become too much sulphur, I might just have been lucky, it was exactly the right amount of it.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

I've got a pilsner on with harvest right now.

I can't judge the strain though, because unfortunately I found out the hard way that even with Hallertau, 3oz at flamout and 2oz dry hop is a fruit-bomb.

 

[Miraculix]

I've got a pilsner on with harvest right now.

I can't judge the strain though, because unfortunately I found out the hard way that even with Hallertau, 3oz at flamout and 2oz dry hop is a fruit-bomb.

What? Really? I never had anything else than spice from it. Strange. Maybe wired harvest?

 

[ThatVideoKid]

What? Really? I never had anything else than spice from it. Strange. Maybe wired harvest?

I think too much of any hop and you get into fruit and citrus. I though I was crazy, or I really effed up this batch, but then I found brulosophy's hop chronicles for mittelfruh, which seems to confirm my experience.
https://brulosophy.com/2021/07/15/the-hop-chronicles-hallertau-mittelfruh-2020/
They seem to have had a similar experience with Tett as well.
https://brulosophy.com/2021/09/16/the-hop-chronicles-german-tettnanger-2019/
It's a tasty beer though, but I'm a bit bummed because I was hoping for real punchy noble character.

 

[dmtaylor]

And just to confuse people, s04 gives sulfur flavour when fermented too cold, I once made a pretty convincing pseudo lager with it by accident.

Ditto. I have found S-04 to be very lager-like indeed. My last batch of ale fermented at 70 F turned out so very clean that I renamed it to be a lager style.

BJCP Certified #A0511

 

[dmtaylor]

What? Really? I never had anything else than spice from it. Strange. Maybe wired harvest?

Terroir, seasonal differences, etc. etc.

FWIW..... I don't late-hop or dry hop with nobles at all anymore. You'll get plenty of spicy herbal hop character from full 60-minute boil additions alone.

Cheers all.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Yep, this is what I've learned. Going to try again with a heavy 30min addition or something.

 

[Miraculix]

The problem I have with melanoidin malt is color. A little goes a long way. I only used 2 oz in a 3 gallon batch and it made the beer significantly darker than I was aiming for. I guess it works for amber lagers but I’m not going to use it again for anything that I want to be light colored, 4-5 SRM. Just a tiny bit will push you past that range.

I can confirm that, but personally, it doesn't matter to me. Ah long as it's clear, I don't care so much about colour... Although, my English bitters tend to be a bit too blonde for my liking tbh

 

[Broothru]

I'm currently trying that strain (Imperial yeast harvest) at room temperature in an American hops pilsener-ish type of beer. Looks clear in the fermenter after about 12 days, I'm bottling today, I'm really looking forward to trying the results.

And just to confuse people, s04 gives sulfur flavour when fermented too cold, I once made a pretty convincing pseudo lager with it by accident. Apparently, it can easily become too much sulphur, I might just have been lucky, it was exactly the right amount of it.

"You're a braver man than I, Gunga Din."

"Gutsiest move I ever saw, Maverick."

My brew area temperature never gets below about 65F. I'd be afraid to do a lager yeast at that temperature.

I pitched yeast (WLP-860) @48F, fermented 5 days @50F, 7 days @ 54F, 7 days @ 65F for D-rest and spunding. Slowly crashed at 3°F/day down to 38F (3 weeks) by which time it was completely clear. Clean with very, very faint hint of sulphur. Pressure transfered @ 1 BAR to a sanitized, NaMeta/CO2 purged keg to let it rest in the kegerator before tapping.

Well, the wait got the better of me and only lasted a few days before I decided "just to take a 'sample' ", which of course became multiple 'samples'. Damn, that's a nice beer.

 

[Miraculix]

"You're a braver man than I, Gunga Din."

"Gutsiest move I ever saw, Maverick."

My brew area temperature never gets below about 65F. I'd be afraid to do a lager yeast at that temperature.

I pitched yeast (WLP-860) @48F, fermented 5 days @50F, 7 days @ 54F, 7 days @ 65F for D-rest and spunding. Slowly crashed at 3°F/day down to 38F (3 weeks) by which time it was completely clear. Clean with very, very faint hint of sulphur. Pressure transfered @ 1 BAR to a sanitized, NaMeta/CO2 purged keg to let it rest in the kegerator before tapping.

Well, the wait got the better of me and only lasted a few days before I decided "just to take a 'sample' ", which of course became multiple 'samples'. Damn, that's a nice beer.

I did that before with other lager yeasts. As long as they are from the same group of lager yeasts, the beer should be nice. 3470, wlp800, mangrove Jack California lager and now harvest. All produced good to excellent beers at room temperature.

 

[monkeymath]

Until I made my own SG, I thought it was a special way to process hops.
It's a flowery fresh smell.
Get an Augustiner at the Bräustuben. Whatever you get at the first smell is sauergut (and some sulfur ).
Make one, just for kicks...

Although I have no intention of making a Helles, I am intrigued by this. Augustiner has a subtle, specific floral quality to it that I couldn't quite pin down. I did connect it to Hallertauer Mittelfrüh, although I am rather certain they don't add any late hops.

Making Sauergut sounds fun, but without any measurements, its impact on the mash/beer will be hard to judge. I don't fancy the idea of dumping stuff in my mash without having as much as a guess as to what it'll do in there.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

This is exactly what I was going to say when I read your first line. You can be as clean as you want with ale yeast (esp things like Lutra) and you wont get that "lager" character. Definitely tasty, but not "lager". Better for the darker lager styles if you're going to do it.

This is interesting what you say about the darker lager styles. I once made a dark Doppelbock with a clean ale yeast that scored really well at a comp. If the judges would have suspected that it was made with an ale yeast, I couldn't have gotten away with it. Also, I came across some rumour saying that Weihenstephan uses an ale yeast for their Doppelbock, the Korbinian... but I don't know if there is really something to it. I think it was someone who heard it at a visit to the brewery. That was actually my inspiration for attempting a Doppelbock with ale yeast in the first place.
I then used the same approach for making a (hoppy) pils, and while it was tasty, it was definitely much less to-style than the Doppelbock.
So next time I'm attempting a pils or some other light lager, I know what to do ;-)

 

[Miraculix]

This is interesting what you say about the darker lager styles. I once made a dark Doppelbock with a clean ale yeast that scored really well at a comp. If the judges would have suspected that it was made with an ale yeast, I couldn't have gotten away with it. Also, I came across some rumour saying that Weihenstephan uses an ale yeast for their Doppelbock, the Korbinian... but I don't know if there is really something to it. I think it was someone who heard it at a visit to the brewery. That was actually my inspiration for attempting a Doppelbock with ale yeast in the first place.
I then used the same approach for making a (hoppy) pils, and while it was tasty, it was definitely much less to-style than the Doppelbock.
So next time I'm attempting a pils or some other light lager, I know what to do ;-)

Wlp 800 for example, is actually an ale yeast. There is not such a clear distinction between ale and lager yeasts that one might think there is.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Wlp 800 for example, is actually an ale yeast. There is not such a clear distinction between ale and lager yeasts that one might think there is.

Yes definitely. Like all things in biology, it must be more of a grey zone than a clear cut line. And then it is logical that the dark malts, the high alcohol and highish FG of a Doppelbock will help in masking whatever subtle differences exist between a clean ale and a clean lager yeast. Whereas in a light and crisp beer, those differences will come more to the forefront.

 

[Bassman2003]

I do not understand the resistance to a brewing technique (low oxygen). Why the offense? One has to remember that larger brew systems are inherently much lower oxygen than homebrew systems. They have much much less exposed surface area. So in the end, large systems are low oxygen by nature to begin with. If they happen to de-aerate their water they are pretty much there throughout their process. Some German breweries mash under de-aerated water to limit the malts exposure to anything.

The folks over in the "lodo crowd" are mainly focused on making lagers. That is pretty much all they care about. Yes, they all started out as hido brewers and migrated to these homebrew techniques led by better taste in the end beers. It is a little complicated but so is professional brewing. Strong process along with the aid of sulfites to scavenge oxygen is the approach to try and retain malt flavor that is lost to oxidation. That is all it is. This should be a good thing but it is received as a bad thing. WHY?

I have been studying this brewing approach for the last two years after 16 years of brewing. Some of the low oxygen brewers have been homebrewing for over thirty years. There is a lot of knowledge and experience involved, so I would not dismiss it as a fad. My beers are across the board way better from a flavor, clarity and attenuation perspective.

I do not care how others' brew. We can all get along. These techniques are shared in a spirit of helping.

In the end, if you want to brew a German lager, low oxygen and sauergut are the tops imho.