That German Lager taste

[monkeymath]

Just curious: for those of you that use melanoidin malt in lieu of decoction, what sort of percentage of your grain bill does the melanoidin represent?

I've only used it once or twice, but it's a rather intense flavour, so I think it's generally recommended not to exceed four or five percent. Can't say how it relates to decoctions, though.

 

[Sammy86]

Dear Mrs Sammy,

I hope this finds you well. I am writing to you on behalf of the international homebrewing community. We all depend on the insight provided by the man that you are so lucky to have by your side.
So while at times it may _seem_ as if he was merely wasting time on the internet, getting into pointless arguments with strangers, mostly overweight middle-aged men with a considerable drinking problem, he is in fact one of the most prolific members of a distinguished community of experts, many of which look up to him.
I am telling you this to further your understanding of his pivotal position. He should be freed from most, if not all, chores of the household, so he can dedicate his energy to his true calling: educating the public.
You should be proud to have scored such a fine specimen of a man.

Sincerely yours,
Some dude on the internet

Thanks dude! She laughed the entire time and then told me to get off the phone!

 

[Oleson M.D.]

We did it. And the beer will be entered this month in the largest single site brewing competition in the country. Wish us luck!

 

[Beermeister32]

I might try that one actually. Just to be able to taste it. Do you already taste the respective flavour from the resulting beer when trying the Sauergut itself, or does it change a lot during the brewing process?

Looks like Weyermann has a pre-made Sauergut / Sour Wort product available in bulk. Anyone see any of this in quart or 1 liter size for home brewers?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Looks like Weyermann has a pre-made Sauergut / Sour Wort product available in bulk. Anyone see any of this in quart or 1 liter size for home brewers?

Or does anybody know how to make it? Reading the analysis, it looks like preparing a kettle sour and then pasteurizing and bottling might work?

Sauergut means soured goods or more plainly sour product; in the context of a brewery it just implies beer that has soured. Finding a use for it might have been how it was first employed to adjust flavor, added to boiling wort for its acidity.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

I don’t drink anything that has soured, milk or beer. But that's just me.
It must be an "acquired" taste.

 

[dmtaylor]

I don’t drink anything that has soured, milk or beer. But that's just me.
It must be an "acquired" taste.

Sauergut is not usually consumed on its own. Rather, it is soured purposefully in small quantity for adjustment of mash pH which remains in accordance with Reinheitsgebot (for those who care about that).

 

[Bassman2003]

Or does anybody know how to make it?

Here is how I was taught to make it.

 

[monkeymath]

Here is how I was taught to make it.

Quick question: you seem to ferment the sauergut in a sealed container. Is there no risk of a yeast "infection" (or heterofermentative lab) producing CO2, which may endanger the structural integrity of said container?
Or, to put it more bluntly: dude, doesn't that jar explode if you get some yeast in there?

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Sauergut is not usually consumed on its own. Rather, it is soured purposefully in small quantity for adjustment of mash pH which remains in accordance with Reinheitsgebot (for those who care about that).

Ok, that makes sense. Glad you got me straightened out!

 

[dmtaylor]

Quick question: you seem to ferment the sauergut in a sealed container. Is there no risk of a yeast "infection" (or heterofermentative lab) producing CO2, which may endanger the structural integrity of said container?
Or, to put it more bluntly: dude, doesn't that jar explode if you get some yeast in there?

That is my thought as well. I have actually used a handful of raw grain as my primary yeast source in a beer, and it worked -- it made a krausen and fermented out and actually made decent beer. I'd be concerned about potential bombs. Perhaps the low pH via addition of lactic acid is what prevents this?? But then this particular method is not Reinheitsgebot either. I'd be curious to see how the Reinh. process works.

 

[Bilsch]

Quick question: you seem to ferment the sauergut in a sealed container. Is there no risk of a yeast "infection" (or heterofermentative lab) producing CO2, which may endanger the structural integrity of said container?
Or, to put it more bluntly: dude, doesn't that jar explode if you get some yeast in there?

There is a risk of yeast fermentation if you deviate to much from the process outlined. The two biggest factors are not lower the starting pH to the proper level and getting too much oxygen into the wort post boil.

On the bright side mason jars are actually designed to vent pressure (weak ring band) and so you don't have to worry about bottle bombs.

 

[Bilsch]

Sauergut is not usually consumed on its own.

Anyone who has made a good batch of it would disagree with that statement.

 

[Bassman2003]

Quick question: you seem to ferment the sauergut in a sealed container. Is there no risk of a yeast "infection" (or heterofermentative lab) producing CO2, which may endanger the structural integrity of said container?
Or, to put it more bluntly: dude, doesn't that jar explode if you get some yeast in there?

Hello,

You raise a good point. The problem is needing to exclude oxygen from the process which is helped by vacuum sealing the jars. My weak point is actually filling the jars in open air. While short in duration, is still a risk. The wort being boiled does not have any yeast so process would be the only entrance point. As Bilsch pointed out, the environment is not as hospitable for the yeast as the pH drops into the 3's. So if there were to be a few yeast cells, hopefully the pH drop would beat out the speed of the yeast replication.

 

[Bilsch]

There is a myriad of different microorganisms on that grain you use to inoculate including the particular strains lactobacillus we are after. Your job making the sauergut is to provide the conditions that favor just the ones that you want to succeed. Exclusion of oxygen, pH and temperature control are all important toward that goal.

 

[camonick]

Here is how I was taught to make it.

If a person was just aiming for the finished product without worrying about purity laws and traditions, could the wort be made with LME or DME then proceed with the rest of the process as described in the video? I was just thinking about a way to speed it up and simplify it a little bit.

 

[monkeymath]

If a person was just aiming for the finished product without worrying about purity laws and traditions...

... then yes, you can just use lactic acid instead.

(Just playing devil's advocate here sorry if I hurt anyone's oxygen-scavenged feelings.)

 

[Bassman2003]

I do not think you can use DME as the wort is soured from the lacto on the grains. I would think DME would be pretty much sterilized. But I am not sure.

Monkey, most people I know that make sauergut do so for the flavor addition as well as the acidity. No need for cheeky remarks. It only looks poorly on you. We are all homebrewers trying to make good beer.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

@Bassman2003 I believe what @camonick is proposing would work... he is proposing making his wort with extract and then adding the grain to that wort. It appears he wants to save some time/effort in wort prep.

But once he has the wort, the 15-18g of malt that he adds will have the organisms on them to acidify his (extract made) wort.

So camonick, go for it, but do so knowing you will be adding sauergut that is not low ox.

 

[Bilsch]

So camonick, go for it, but do so knowing you will be adding sauergut that is not low ox.

I would be interested in those extract results as well however you might want to make a batch the all grain way in addition to compare.

As for the SG wort being low oxygen, as time goes by I'm less and less concerned with keeping the sauergut wort strictly LoDO on the hotside. As Denny would say, I haven't noticed a big difference. After the boil though it is paramount to exclude O2 or the souring won't happen correctly.

 

[camonick]

@Bassman2003 I believe what @camonick is proposing would work... he is proposing making his wort with extract and then adding the grain to that wort. It appears he wants to save some time/effort in wort prep.

But once he has the wort, the 15-18g of malt that he adds will have the organisms on them to acidify his (extract made) wort.

So camonick, go for it, but do so knowing you will be adding sauergut that is not low ox.

Yes, that is what I was asking. I’d still adjust wort pH to 4.0-4.5 then add it to jars with the 18 grams of raw Pilsner malt and continue with the rest of the process. As of now, I’m more concerned if adding it to my boil will give me the flavor I’ve been chasing. Maybe I’ll try a batch and report back. I need to acquire a few pieces of equipment first.

 

[Bilsch]

Maybe I’ll try a batch and report back. I need to acquire a few pieces of equipment first.

I'm not sure what equipment you might need but most brewers have enough bits and pieces laying around to jury rig a 120F water bath. For example my first attempts at SG were single jars in an old crockpot rigged with an inkbird temp controller with a cone shaped reflectix and duct tape lid.

For your malt extract remember to get the un-hopped kind because hops will hinder the lactobacillus.

 

[Bassman2003]

Sorry, I misread your post. Thanks for pointing it out. As Bilsch stated, it would be best to do a side by side for flavor and storage life. You might get longer shelf life with a low O2 wort than DME. I have some jars left from when I made that video and they are still light & bright. Just a guess though. Make sure you taste it straight out of the mason jars. It is pretty interesting stuff!

If you end up liking the sauergut, the sous vide cookers are not that expensive on Amazon.

 

[camonick]

I'm not sure what equipment you might need but most brewers have enough bits and pieces laying around to jury rig a 120F water bath.

I could probably rig something up when my inkbird isn’t busy keeping my fermenter cool. The main thing I’m lacking is a pH meter.

 

[camonick]

For your malt extract remember to get the un-hopped kind because hops will hinder the lactobacillus.

If I was to go that route, I’d use this—

 

[Broothru]

I'm not sure what equipment you might need but most brewers have enough bits and pieces laying around to jury rig a 120F water bath. For example my first attempts at SG were single jars in an old crockpot rigged with an inkbird temp controller with a cone shaped reflectix and duct tape lid.

For your malt extract remember to get the un-hopped kind because hops will hinder the lactobacillus.

Why not use a common sous vide water bath? Those devices will maintain 120F +/- 0.5°F indefinitely.

 

[Bilsch]

Why not use a common sous vide water bath? Those devices will maintain 120F +/- 0.5°F indefinitely.

Yea absolutely, that's the method used in the video posted. But also anything you can put a jar in that will maintain the temperature +or- a degree or so. I've used crock pots, roasters and kegs with a fermwrap under three turns of reflectix.

 

[Bilsch]

I could probably rig something up when my inkbird isn’t busy keeping my fermenter cool. The main thing I’m lacking is a pH meter.

Yes you definitely need a pH meter for sauergut making.

 

[Broothru]

Yes you definitely need a pH meter for sauergut making.

There's something missing in my understanding about pH in the discussion on this thread so far, primarily centering on how acidic the sauergut is when finished, which then will determine (or at least allow me to calculate) how much of the sauergut to add. Also confusing to me is when to add it.

I usually try to target a slightly higher starting pH for mash of ~5.6-5.8 with the grain bill, then correct with lactic acid in the mash to end up with a post-mash/pre-boil kettle pH closer to 5.0~5.2. Late in the boil I also adjust by adding lactic with the goal to have the finished beer pH closer to 4.5-4.8. Would it make more sense to just skip the late boil addition and add sauergut at that time, or at flameout, instead?

'Standard' lactic acid strength is usually 88%. How does the strength of sauergut, derived from the proportions noted in the video, compare in strength, and how do I measure that strength? Lactic acid and acidulated malt are so easy to calculate and use, but I really want to try sauergut to see if that can take my German lagers to the next level or taste and quality.

 

[Bassman2003]

Hello,

I can try to answer your questions. The sauergut will end up in the low 3's of pH. Knowing the amount if acidity of your batch is tricky and I kind of fly by the seat of my pants here. After some uses and measuring, I get about 3 points of pH drop by using an entire 32 oz mason jar 15 minutes before the end of the boil. This is for a 5 gallon batch on my system. I add it at the end to try and maximize flavor. My pH schedule is 5.4-5.6 for the mash, adjust to 5.4 for the boil (except hefeweizen) then adjust to 5.1 before the end of the boil and before adding Whirlfloc. My understanding is that pH of 5.4 is optimal for hop utilization and Whirlfloc works best under or around pH 5.2.