New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[crusader1612]

I'm finally embarking on my first liquid yeast hazy. (we call them Hazy IPA's here in NZ, as we not in the northeast/new england).
Flameout Centennial,El-Dorado, Chinook, with a little bit of Nelson & Hort4337. 50g of each at flameout plus 5g of nelson & hort.

Dryhopped with Citra, Mosaic, Nelson & Hort4337 (exp NZ hop) 50g of each, 25% at high Krausen, with the remainder 5 days later

WLP 066 London Fog

Ale Malt
Flaked Oats
Wheat
Acidulated malt for pH
1.066

 

[popquizkid]

I would say that’s rather atypical for that yeast but you never know.

@beervoid I’d say your results are more typical honestly.

Interesting, I almost get 75-80% attenuation on 1318 (no adjuncts / typical NEIPA grainbill). I ferment at 67 and then gradually ramp after high krausen -- topping out at 72.

 

[couchsending]

Interesting, I almost get 75-80% attenuation on 1318 (no adjuncts / typical NEIPA grainbill). I ferment at 67 and then gradually ramp after high krausen -- topping out at 72.

Wyeast stated attenuation is 71-75 which I find pretty spot on in the 15 or so times I’ve used it. In my experience and in talking to the pro brewers I know that brew with it, it needs to be mashed for extended times at below 150 and a simple sugar added to get close to 80% attenuation.

Again everyone’s experience, equipment, and process is totally different. I don’t think I’ve ever had a yeast attenuate more than the manufacturers printed attenuation values unless I manipulated it. In close to 300 batches. Always appropriate starters, pure O2, yeast nutrient, calibrated thermometers, meticulous pH monitoring, etc. I also have never used a diastaticus yeast in any of my fermenters that I use normal yeast in.

 

[leesmith]

I went and looked at my records...
I've brewed about 35 times with 1318 and got 75-80% attenuation at 152f mash temp. At a higher temp than that and it starts to creep into the 70-75% range.

 

[stickyfinger]

I just pull the prv on the keg lid once I tip it upsidedown and all the sanitizer shoots out. Just don’t let all the pressure out keep a constant flow and you will not have to mess with your dip tube. Also the keg lid is the lowest point when you tip it upside down so everything sits right there untill you release the prv

you cant get all of the air or sanitizer out that way

 

[stickyfinger]

Thanks.. That's roughly 84% attenuation. I have a hard time getting above 70%. Can't be oxygenation issue for me if you are getting that low.

have you tried replacing malt with table sugar? if your AA increases a lot at least you know the yeast are working well. Not a fantastic test but maybe worth doing

 

[yungguanyu]

Long time reader, first time poster. Over the last couple of years I have surely read the entirety of this thread. I visited the US over a year ago now and since then the NEIPA/hazy IPAs i have available locally just don't cut it (although, in the last six months some have been coming out that are definitely close to par). After a few failed attempts, and becoming jaded at trying to brew the style, i finally made something i am stoked on.

Big thanks to everyone who has contributed in this thread, especially Braufessor and Dgallo who i took the most info from.

This once comes in at 6.5%, i used simcoe/citra/idaho 7 in equal amounts with 1318.

If only i could get good lighting to do it justice...

 

[beervoid]

have you tried replacing malt with table sugar? if your AA increases a lot at least you know the yeast are working well. Not a fantastic test but maybe worth doing

That's exactly my plan for the next batch. My fermentation usually ends within 6 days and is vigorous so its hard to believe for me my yeast is the problem.

 

[leesmith]

That's exactly my plan for the next batch. My fermentation usually ends within 6 days and is vigorous so its hard to believe for me my yeast is the problem.

Do you mind providing a detailed recipe and brew day process?

How your mashing...what kind of vessel, bag, heat source...

Where your fermenting...controlled temp...ambient...

 

[Dgallo]

Long time reader, first time poster. Over the last couple of years I have surely read the entirety of this thread. I visited the US over a year ago now and since then the NEIPA/hazy IPAs i have available locally just don't cut it (although, in the last six months some have been coming out that are definitely close to par). After a few failed attempts, and becoming jaded at trying to brew the style, i finally made something i am stoked on.

Big thanks to everyone who has contributed in this thread, especially Braufessor and Dgallo who i took the most info from.

This once comes in at 6.5%, i used simcoe/citra/idaho 7 in equal amounts with 1318.

If only i could get good lighting to do it justice...

Looks good brother. Love the Idaho 7 citra combo. Never used it or had it with simcoe but I bet it’s great. Well done

 

[MaCheFai]

Gotcha. I usually run it warmer than that around day 3.5-5.5 and push it to 75/76 to stress the yeast a little further but you should still be fine with it.

If your tilt is showing you’re done than I’d keep at 70-72 for about 3 days so the yeast clean it up properly.

Keep us posted with your experience!

Wanted to report back on my A24 batch. Thanks for the recommendation @Dgallo, it ended up coming out really tasty! Everyone in the group really enjoyed it. Used a Galaxy, Citry, Amarillo combo. The A24 was a little more sharp and assertive than the 1318, but still nice and juicy. It also dropped out a bit more than 1318 which is fine, but not expected. Here's a pic if anyone is interested: https://www.instagram.com/p/B32XkJDpuE5/

Have any recommendations for a kveik with a similar profile as A24 or 1318? Wanted to flip a batch quick. Was looking at OLY-057 and OLY-200 too. Had any experience with it?

 

[beervoid]

Do you mind providing a detailed recipe and brew day process?

How your mashing...what kind of vessel, bag, heat source...

Where your fermenting...controlled temp...ambient...

All my recipes are roughly the same.
Pale malt with 10 to 20% oat wheat (malted or flaked I mix it up) hopped with whatever IBU im aiming for the 60min addition + max 3oz whirlpool and 8oz pellet dry hop per 5gal.

60L Grainfather like system. Recirculation and sparge.
Temp controlled fermentation. Start at 16c ramp up to 22c after day 2.

 

[leesmith]

All my recipes are roughly the same.
Pale malt with 10 to 20% oat wheat (malted or flaked I mix it up) hopped with whatever IBU im aiming for the 60min addition + max 3oz whirlpool and 8oz pellet dry hop per 5gal.

60L Grainfather like system. Recirculation and sparge.
Temp controlled fermentation. Start at 16c ramp up to 22c after day 2.

Is your system a home made system?

I made my single vessel system from scratch and used to get quite a temperature stratification due to the location of the probe which controlled the heating element. Any chance this could be going on?

 

[Loud Brewing]

Is your system a home made system?

I made my single vessel system from scratch and used to get quite a temperature stratification due to the location of the probe which controlled the heating element. Any chance this could be going on?

This is specifically why circulation is so important to me in biab/single vessel. A high flow rate will help balance and sustain even mash temps in the mash pipe. Keep in mind flow rate will be affected by size of crush and drainage ability etc.

 

[beervoid]

Is your system a home made system?

I made my single vessel system from scratch and used to get quite a temperature stratification due to the location of the probe which controlled the heating element. Any chance this could be going on?

No made in china, the probe is at the bottom but I use a seperate thermo that I stick in the mash to keep track of temp

 

[beervoid]

This is specifically why circulation is so important to me in biab/single vessel. A high flow rate will help balance and sustain even mash temps in the mash pipe. Keep in mind flow rate will be affected by size of crush and drainage ability etc.

The flow rate on this machine is not incredible but it should not be too fast as well, especially with an adjunct rich mash it would pull all the beta glucans to the bottom and make it stick worse.
Im def sure this system is far from ideal for protein rich grainbills, even adding rice hulls doesnt do much. It's a problem with the size of mash tun vs the false bottom I think.

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

Haven't posted here in a long while but I did a Treehouse SAP clone that you might be interested in:

4.5 gallons post boil
4 gallons into fermenter
Preboil Gravity 1.062
Final Gravity 1.012
8.5 lbs Rahr 2 row
0.75 lbs White malted wheat
0.5 lbs Crystal 20
0.25 lbs Carapils
Mash for 60 minutes at 154 F
0.5 oz Columbus FWH
0.3 oz Columbus @ 15
0.3 oz Columbus @ 10
0.3 oz Columbus @ 5
1.5 oz Chinook @ 170 Whirlpool for 30 minutes
1.5 oz Simcoe @ 170 Whirlpool for 30 minutes
Pitch 1 packet WLP007 @ 70 F
2 oz Chinook Dry Hop when fermentation winds down but is not over (day 4ish)
2 oz Simcoe Dry Hop when fermentation winds down but is not over (day 4ish)
Leave dry hop for 4 days and transfer to keg
1 oz Cryo Citra Keg Hop AT SERVING TEMPERATURE
Sit for a week carbing and enjoy

Tasting notes: Tasted muddled when first transferred to the keg and then took on a woody taste (that I can't stand) about a week in. In a last ditch effort I hit the keg with an ounce of Cryo Citra which made the taste acceptable after a day. A week after the Citra the brew is killer. The taste leads with Citra and finishes dank with Simcoe. The resinous Chinook coats the tongue while you contemplate your next sip which comes quickly. I usually brew Trillium clones hence the grain bill but I left the dextrose out of this one because I wanted a bit less ABV and bit more body. Give it a shot and let me know what you think.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Haven't posted here in a long while but I did a Treehouse SAP clone that you might be interested in:

4.5 gallons post boil
4 gallons into fermenter
Preboil Gravity 1.062
Final Gravity 1.012
8.5 lbs Rahr 2 row
0.75 lbs White malted wheat
0.5 lbs Crystal 20
0.25 lbs Carapils
Mash for 60 minutes at 154 F
0.5 oz Columbus FWH
0.3 oz Columbus @ 15
0.3 oz Columbus @ 10
0.3 oz Columbus @ 5
1.5 oz Chinook @ 170 Whirlpool for 30 minutes
1.5 oz Simcoe @ 170 Whirlpool for 30 minutes
Pitch 1 packet WLP007 @ 70 F
2 oz Chinook Dry Hop when fermentation winds down but is not over (day 4ish)
2 oz Simcoe Dry Hop when fermentation winds down but is not over (day 4ish)
Leave dry hop for 4 days and transfer to keg
1 oz Cryo Citra Keg Hop AT SERVING TEMPERATURE
Sit for a week carbing and enjoy

Tasting notes: Tasted muddled when first transferred to the keg and then took on a woody taste (that I can't stand) about a week in. In a last ditch effort I hit the keg with an ounce of Cryo Citra which made the taste acceptable after a day. A week after the Citra the brew is killer. The taste leads with Citra and finishes dank with Simcoe. The resinous Chinook coats the tongue while you contemplate your next sip which comes quickly. I usually brew Trillium clones hence the grain bill but I left the dextrose out of this one because I wanted a bit less ABV and bit more body. Give it a shot and let me know what you think.

That's interesting. I once brewed a black ipa with this same hop combo minus the citra. Goal was a heavily dank and piney bipa. I also did not like at all the taste when the beer was really young. But it improved dramatically with some further conditioning and I then thouroughly enjoyed the beer.

 

[dogjam]

I have read to Chapter 8 of Janish book so far - lots of great info and science explanation behind what we do (be warned - very scientific language used at times). I won't provide a bunch of spoilers but I do want to point out interesting process tweaks based on scientific tests regarding yeast / fermentation schedule for Ale yeast & dry hopping for NEIPA to increase esters & reduce unwanted non-fruity hop oils or astringency from polyphenols. (This is not overtly stated in book - I pieced this together.)

• Overpitch yeast - leads to increased esters (this was new info to me - not sure I will try this though)
  
• Pitch warm (3-5 degrees higher than top of your specific yeast temp range) and continue chilling to desired temp ---- leads to increased esters and possibly greater glycerol (max glycerol production in first 18hrs) (this was new info to me- definitely gonna do this since summer)
• Ferment on the warm side of the schedule - (temp that highest on scale for your yeast - usually 72-74) - increases fruity esters (no surprise here)
• Approximately 60hrs after pitch yeast, DROP the temp to lowest temp for your specific yeast (usually 60-64*) - leads to significant increase in esters. (this was new info to me - for sure gonna do this). Hold this low temp for approximately two days and add first small dryhop (no more than 3-4oz & make sure to do LODO process)
• This should have you around day 5-6. Allow the temp to freerise back to the high end of the ferm schedule for the yeast (~72-74) hold this for 5 days add another small dryhop if desired (no more than 2-3oz & make sure to do LODO process
• Day 10-11 - Crash it to around 58* hold for a day for the yeast to crash then add final dryhop (no more than 3-4oz & make sure to do LODO process). After 24hr crash completely - get the beer transferred off the final dryhop in under 48hrs
• In case you didn't notice the recommendation is small dryhop charges spread across 2-3 charges, including a biotrans dryhop - this reduces astringency from polyphenols & "green" hop oils and increases extraction efficiency of the hops - in turn this makes the beer drinkable sooner. (Not necessarily new info but I am gonna try the triple dryhop instead of my usual double to see if different).

There are few other pearls that I have gathered too. The above has me the most excited so far to try with NEIPAs and some process tweaks to improve my lager brewing that I learned. I strongly recommend everyone add this book to their brewing library.

Hello all, I've brewed a number (7-ish) NEIPAs and milkshake IPAs with pretty good results, except that they start to degrade/decline in quality/become less hazy after 3-4 weeks in the keg. I've been mining this thread for information and best practices to improve my process, and am confused about a few things--thanks in advance to anyone kind enough to respond!

I brew with a Grainfather and ferment in a Grainfather conical, using a hop spider for boil/whirlpooling and stainless steel mesh cylinder (300 micron) for dry hopping. Previously had no oxygen control beyond avoiding splashing and CO2 purging the keg, but now I've got CO2 pressure transfer capability (which I'm hoping will really help with longevity).
-are folks still using the up-and-down fermentation schedule mentioned way back here (derived from Janish?) with a "soft crash" at 60 and the a final "hard crash" before the last dryhop charge?
-Is the purpose of all the temperature manipulation to get bigger hop presence, to increase the shelf-life (keg-life), to decrease "grassiness", to get particulates out of the beer/prevent clogging, or all of the above? I don't really have issues with clogging, grassiness, or lacking big hop presence--just that my initially delicious (IMHO) NEIPAs fade after 3-4 weeks.
-I've seen some talk about racking off the yeast prior to the final dry-hop charge--is this also designed to enhance beer longevity? Or just to prevent clogging again?
-I've used many different yeasts and have never been disappointed with any of them (London Ale III, Omega Hornindal Kviek). Going to use Yeast Bay Hazy Daze II on my next batch--any special recs or caveats here?

This recipe will be:
6# Golden Promise
6# Briess Rahr 2-row
1# Flaked wheat
1# Flaked oats
Yeast Bay Hazy Daze II
Small bittering charge then 4oz WP then 8oz DH of some combination of Citra, Mosaic, Southern Dawn, Southern Promise

Thanks again for any insights!

(Edited to correct weird formatting/quoting issue)

 

[leesmith]

No made in china, the probe is at the bottom but I use a seperate thermo that I stick in the mash to keep track of temp

So if the top 6 inches of your mash is at your desired mash temp with the separate thermo...what temp does the installed probe read at the bottom?

 

[beervoid]

So if the top 6 inches of your mash is at your desired mash temp with the separate thermo...what temp does the installed probe read at the bottom?

Roughly 2 fahrenheit difference

 

[leesmith]

Roughly 2 fahrenheit difference

Above or below mash temp?

 

[wepeeler]

I’ve had your beer brother, Besides having hop burn it was good. Solid aroma. If I’m you all I do is completely eliminate your fermentation dryhop and keep the dryhop between 5-8 oz.

I think the jury is still out on a lot of different dry hopping techniques. Seems like everyone has a little different idea on what's best, which is great for experimentation. I got to speak a little with Scott Janish, and I asked him what he thought about dry hopping during primary fermentation vs letting the yeast floc out first. He said he would love to see (taste) a side by side and see if he could tell the difference. The conflicting views of biotransfermation is that although geraniol is converted to citronellol (citrus, fruity), the co2 pushes the aroma out of suspension. Then there's the thought that dry hopping after the yeast has flocced keeps the oils from being dragged down by the yeast. You just don't get the biotransformation (is BT even necessary?) I've had good luck with BT (I think?). I typically do a small BT dry hop and another a few days before kegging to get more aroma and flavor. I haven't done it enough to have a final say as to what works best (for me), but the beer has always tasted great. I love reading about other people's experiences with dry hopping schedules.

 

[Dgallo]

I think the jury is still out on a lot of different dry hopping techniques. Seems like everyone has a little different idea on what's best, which is great for experimentation. I got to speak a little with Scott Janish, and I asked him what he thought about dry hopping during primary fermentation vs letting the yeast floc out first. He said he would love to see (taste) a side by side and see if he could tell the difference. The conflicting views of biotransfermation is that although geraniol is converted to citronellol (citrus, fruity), the co2 pushes the aroma out of suspension. Then there's the thought that dry hopping after the yeast has flocced keeps the oils from being dragged down by the yeast. You just don't get the biotransformation (is BT even necessary?) I've had good luck with BT (I think?). I typically do a small BT dry hop and another a few days before kegging to get more aroma and flavor. I haven't done it enough to have a final say as to what works best (for me), but the beer has always tasted great. I love reading about other people's experiences with dry hopping schedules.

Thats certainly true about dryhoping but it’s been proven that fermentation is the cause for binding polyphenols and proteins together and also causes a longer lasting haze and keeps more polyphenols in suspension Polyphenols at a certain threshold causes hop burn. So for me the only logical explanation is that active fermentation dryhoping or/and experiencing hopcreep is the cause for the most of the hopburn. My last 4 beers have proven this theory for me at least. Did two in a row with dryhoping 4 oz in active ferm without dropping yeast and then did two back to back without active ferm dh and dropped yeast. The first two had hopburn and the last two had none.

 

[sjfischr]

I would say that’s rather atypical for that yeast but you never know.

@beervoid I’d say your results are more typical honestly.

I've logged on to this thread to also report that recently, I've been experiencing higher-than-normal attenuation from 1318, after years of pokey, 70-75%.
Using 1318 for years, I've controlled temperature, even overpitched in over to boost cell count--but recently I've been using different fermenters and adding more hops.

Taking everything else out of the picture, I'm wondering if it's one of two things:
-- Fermenting under pressure using the FermZilla fermenter
-- Free dry hopping (no mesh/screen)--this could very well be increasing the chances of hop creep as depicted in Janish's book

Thoughts?

 

[SRJHops]

Thats certainly true about dryhoping but it’s been proven that fermentation is the cause for binding polyphenols and proteins together and also causes a longer lasting haze and keeps more polyphenols in suspension Polyphenols at a certain threshold causes hop burn. So for me the only logical explanation is that active fermentation dryhoping or/and experiencing hopcreep is the cause for the most of the hopburn. My last 4 beers have proven this theory for me at least. Did two in a row with dryhoping 4 oz in active ferm without dropping yeast and then did two back to back without active ferm dh and dropped yeast. The first two had hopburn and the last two had none.

Did the the two without hop burn have the same great flavor as the burners (once they settled down)?

I wonder if using just an ounce or two in active would bring a little more flavor but without the burn?

My very favorite NEIPAs do seem to have some burn... Maybe to get such huge flavor you need a little burn in return?

 

[Dgallo]

Did the the two without hop burn have the same great flavor as the burners (once they settled down)?

I wonder if using just an ounce or two in active would bring a little more flavor but without the burn?

My very favorite NEIPAs do seem to have some burn... Maybe to get such huge flavor you need a little burn in return?

Yeah they actually had a better varietal specific flavor and aroma.

Idk, my experiment was for with 4oz or w/o, I didn’t try to scale it back. I’m sure there could a sweet spot and get the best of both world with get hopburn.

 

[Dgallo]

@SRJHops and for clarification total dryhop was the same for the beer, hop varieties did change

 

[SRJHops]

Yeah they actually had a better varietal specific flavor and aroma.

Idk, my experiment was for with 4oz or w/o, I didn’t try to scale it back. I’m sure there could a sweet spot and get the best of both world with get hopburn.

My latest is 2.5 weeks in the bottle now, so nearing peak. I soft crashed after fermentation and dry hopped at 60. Again at 70 2 days before bottling, then soft crashed again. Does seem smoother, but lacks flavor I seek. Could be that I need to use fruitier hops...or maybe I do need a small dh on day 3? Thinking 2 ounces citra or 1 ounce galaxy...

 

[beervoid]

Above or below mash temp?

Higher, there is some heat loss due to recirculation which stabilized after a while.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

He said he would love to see (taste) a side by side and see if he could tell the difference.

Cloudwater did exactly that with their DIPA v4/5 back in 2016. They had feedback from over 300 people, and the result was that 52% prefered a blend of the two, 25% preferred v5 (dry hopped solely after fermentation, 23% preferred v4 (hopped solely during fermentation). So thereafter they went with dry hopping during fermentation and afterwards.

It's only one test, but at least it was done on a larger scale than most, by brewers who know what they're doing (those DIPAs would push Cloudwater to second in the world on Ratebeer).

The conflicting views of biotransfermation is that although geraniol is converted to citronellol (citrus, fruity)

Well, there's a deeper problem in that people use the word biotransformation to refer to two separate things, the release of flavour compounds that are bound to the hops as glycosides etc, and the conversion of hop compounds into different ones (as in the geraniol -> citronellol example you give).

They're different processes. I've mentioned previously my experience of really blatant conversion of Chinook grapefruit into a more complex, limey flavour by T-58, and Scott has referred to something similar with ?1318? from memory. The tradeoff is that you lose maybe 20% of the intensity in return for more complexity. But people seem to mostly be interested in glycoside release when they talk about biotransformation, they're not talking about adding complexity.

 

[JohnnyJohnJohns]

What's the best way to avoid hop bite? I've had a couple of NEIPAs that have been really juicy and smooth but the majority I've had over here (Ireland) really catch the back of my throat with hop bite (polyphenols?). I'd like to brew one of these bit avoid that unpleasant finish. Any recommendations?

 

[couchsending]

Don’t dry hop it during really active fermentation

Don’t use a lot of CaCl

Give it more time to cold condition

 

[Dgallo]

What's the best way to avoid hop bite? I've had a couple of NEIPAs that have been really juicy and smooth but the majority I've had over here (Ireland) really catch the back of my throat with hop bite (polyphenols?). I'd like to brew one of these bit avoid that unpleasant finish. Any recommendations?

Like @couchsending said, limit active fermentation dh (I’ve personally eliminated it), limit your calcium ppm(I have good luck keeping it under 100ppm). Crashing always helps

 

[SRJHops]

Nice article on NEIPA's by Randy Mosher in the new Craft Beer & Brewing Magazine. Also includes a Pinthouse Pizza recipe for Fog Runner, a 9% DIPA NEIPA (5 gal) that dry hops (Galaxy, Strata, Citra) on Day 2 using 22 ounces pellet and 3 ounces Cryo = about 28 ounces! So, they either know something we don't, or they are wasting a ton of hops...

 

[couchsending]

They do a lot of things very differently than a lot of breweries producing this style. Never had their beer. Only use the breweries who’s beer I’ve had as reference for most styles. They also use a yeast that you’ve never used for this style and probably few have that have read this thread.

 

[Dgallo]

Nice article on NEIPA's by Randy Mosher in the new Craft Beer & Brewing Magazine. Also includes a Pinthouse Pizza recipe for Fog Runner, a 9% DIPA NEIPA (5 gal) that dry hops (Galaxy, Strata, Citra) on Day 2 using 22 ounces pellet and 3 ounces Cryo = about 28 ounces! So, they either know something we don't, or they are wasting a ton of hops...

@PianoMan knows the brewers at pint house well and if I recall correctly they don’t keg until day 21 after significant crashing. ( @PianoMan correct me if I have that wrong) . So they are certainly accounting for their hop burn.

Edit***
But from my personal experience theyre wasting at minimum 12 oz of hops

 

[GnenieGone]

Correct. 17days min in primary from what I understand. They use a lot of cryo hops dry hopping also but with circulation, they can get it done in minutes. Again my understanding.

@PianoMan knows the brewers at pint house well and if I recall correctly they don’t keg until day 21 after significant crashing. ( @PianoMan correct me if I have that wrong) . So they are certainly accounting for their hop burn.

Edit***
But from my personal experience theyre wasting at minimum 12 oz of hops

 

[wepeeler]

Thats certainly true about dryhoping but it’s been proven that fermentation is the cause for binding polyphenols and proteins together and also causes a longer lasting haze and keeps more polyphenols in suspension Polyphenols at a certain threshold causes hop burn. So for me the only logical explanation is that active fermentation dryhoping or/and experiencing hopcreep is the cause for the most of the hopburn. My last 4 beers have proven this theory for me at least. Did two in a row with dryhoping 4 oz in active ferm without dropping yeast and then did two back to back without active ferm dh and dropped yeast. The first two had hopburn and the last two had none.

Hoping to brew more frequently in the coming months, which will allow me to experiment more with dry hopping. For the last neipa I made I dry hopped only post fermentation. It definitely didn't have the typical hop burn even when it was young, but I used Apollo and Citra, which I hadn't used in combination before. Forever learning...

Cloudwater did exactly that with their DIPA v4/5 back in 2016. They had feedback from over 300 people, and the result was that 52% prefered a blend of the two, 25% preferred v5 (dry hopped solely after fermentation, 23% preferred v4 (hopped solely during fermentation). So thereafter they went with dry hopping during fermentation and afterwards.

It's only one test, but at least it was done on a larger scale than most, by brewers who know what they're doing (those DIPAs would push Cloudwater to second in the world on Ratebeer).



Well, there's a deeper problem in that people use the word biotransformation to refer to two separate things, the release of flavour compounds that are bound to the hops as glycosides etc, and the conversion of hop compounds into different ones (as in the geraniol -> citronellol example you give).

They're different processes. I've mentioned previously my experience of really blatant conversion of Chinook grapefruit into a more complex, limey flavour by T-58, and Scott has referred to something similar with ?1318? from memory. The tradeoff is that you lose maybe 20% of the intensity in return for more complexity. But people seem to mostly be interested in glycoside release when they talk about biotransformation, they're not talking about adding complexity.

Interesting take on the Cloudwater exBEERiment. Basically people couldn't decide what they actually liked, from the % data provided. The blend being the most popular, and each dry hop being equally liked. The data reveals an almost perfect split of both (the blend) and then an equal split of ferm dry hopping vs post ferm dry hopping. At least that's what I'm getting from the data. Just like a Brulosophy exBEERiment (inconclusive).

As for biotransformation, I was under the impression that non aromatic glycosides turn to terpenoids which = aroma. And there have been some brewers on the fence on to whether or not these volatile compounds get blown off by the co2. The conversion of the geraniol to citronellol is for flavor. These compounds are more soluble and tend to stay in the solution. I could be wrong, or misinterpreted what I've been reading, so this is great to keep the mind wheels turning. Thanks.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Interesting take on the Cloudwater exBEERiment. Basically people couldn't decide what they actually liked, from the % data provided. The blend being the most popular, and each dry hop being equally liked. The data reveals an almost perfect split of both (the blend) and then an equal split of ferm dry hopping vs post ferm dry hopping. At least that's what I'm getting from the data. Just like a Brulosophy exBEERiment (inconclusive).

I'd disagree that "people couldn't decide" - people individually had favourites, but different people like different things. And that's fine - the implication is that brewers should decide for themselves what works best for their individual taste (and accept that other people will have different tastes). That's a long way from being "inconclusive".

As for biotransformation, I was under the impression that non aromatic glycosides turn to terpenoids which = aroma.

It's not that they "turn into" anything, they are already there but just not available to the beer.

It's not quite the same, but imagine that you have a chilli plant that's too big to fit in your saucepan. The chillis are "unavailable" to anything that you cook in the saucepan. But a yeast comes along with a pair of scissors, it can cut the chillis off the plant and then you can either add the chillis direct to whatever you cook in the saucepan, or eg cut them up for even more capsaicin-y goodness.