beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
Will give other techniques a try and see how it pans out.
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New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA
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dannowatts
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that really does look absolutely gorgeous!!
i’m wanting to give your recipe a go but first wanted to seek clarification:
the earliest hop addition was at 10 minutes, nothing sooner?
also, what what was your target IBU you were shooting for?
thanks so much for taking the time, can’t wait to give this a try and share our results!
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
If you’re splashing your wort and stirring your yeast in vigorously when you rack into the fermenter you should have plenty of dissolved o2 for your yeast. If you dissolve too much o2 into the wort and your lag time is extended from inderpitching you increase the risk of your malt and hotside hops flavor compounds to oxidize and not produce as well as they would otherwise.
I know this was mentioned previously but I would test your thermometer again. If you have a new fridge the sets to specific temps, test a liquid that’s in the and then boil some water. Make sure both temps hit perfectly. If they don’t jive, that’s you’re issue. There’s genuinely no reason a 148*f mash would produce a 1.020 beer with 1318 unless it’s a late generation or the mash is not converting properly (temp/ph/time)
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
Its my understanding hot side oxidation only occurs at temps above 27c.
Temperature probe was tested in ice water read fine. At boiling temps it's 2c off. I figure the max avarage middle would be 1c. Even with that in mind it doesnt explain high attenuation. Def looking to get a digital thermometer I can calibrate.
Yeast is freshly grown 1st gen.
If anything these last batches where expected to end lower as I overpitched. Im at 1mil cells per ml instead of usual 0.75.
Maybe the combination of those base malts and the lack of 02?
I'd assume you are giving the beer long enough to finish out....10 days to be safe? Some people rush this style of beer.
I have used a refractometer and calculator to determine fg. Worked fine. This is the calculator I used: http://seanterrill.com/2012/01/06/refractometer-calculator/
Something is off though....if your mashing at 149f you should be hitting the range of 1.013-1.011 with 1318. I have not used Conan enough to know.
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
I use the same calculator.
I let it go for 8 days max. Healthy fermentation shouldnt take longer then that.
Im also doubting o2 as I would presume low o2 levels would result in lagging and slow fermentation.
I have ripping fermentation every single time.
How long do you let your sample for refractometer settle down?
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
Foxidation occurs throughout the brewing process and will happen at pitching temperatures of your lag time is too great. Think about it, it happens during dryhoping and most are dryhoping at the same temps as pitching.
2*c difference could be close to 3*f off if using a non digit thermometer, there is also the chance for human error reading non digital thermometers which would certainly affect the amount of complex sugars being extracted. It wouldn’t account for 1.020 but could be a few points
That being said, I really hope you get to the bottom of issue. Good luck brother
I used to take a sample from the fermenter, put a drop on the refractometer, and then calculate. The sample is so small that the surface of the refractometer is going to easily change the temp of the beer.
Or are you talking about brew day? I use a pipette to collect a sample, cool the bulb part that holds the liquid in room temp water and then put some on the refractometer for a reading. I use these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005IQTSE0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
*Edit: brew day procedure takes less than 30 seconds to cool
Before brew day I convert the estimated preboil and original gravity and put those figures in my brew sheet notes for reference before brewing. I use this calculator for that: https://www.brewersfriend.com/brix-converter/
Also....maybe test your system to see if your actually getting an accurate mash temp? Where is the temp taken from? Is there a built in temp probe? Maybe that's faulty? I had a temp probe go faulty and caused low readings which were false.
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beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
I meassure the whole system with water and keep track of temps during mashing with an independent thermometer.
As for refractometer sample, I'm inclined to believe that taking a sample direct from the fermenter or boil vs taking a sample and letting it settle down and let any particles precipitate (not as much as cool down) helps with better readings.
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
Thank you, i'm happy with how the beers turn out but can't stand it when anticipated / calculated nrs are off without me understanding what is the causing factor.
Of course...samples should be as clear as possible. For a mash sample I'll stir the mash...wait a minute or two and take the clear wort from the top. For boil or after...I'll let the sediment settle in the bulb (takes seconds) and then gently put a drop on the refractometer. If it's still too blurry....I'll flush the surface of the refractometer with more wort from the bulb...but this whole process takes no longer than a minute at most. During fermentation...I don't remember what I did since it was so long ago. But I'd imagine something similar to the boil procedure and subsequent flush but without cooling.
For an experiment...see if you can get your hands on some Rahr 2-row and then see where your FG ends up.
I have had great success using a refractometer in determining OG but it took 3 things to get right:
1. The sample *must* be clear and degassed. I run all samples through a coffee filter first. This is especially critical during active fermentation. Sometimes twice.
2. Get a very accurate OG with a hydrometer. I use a precision hydrometer accurate to 0.1 Plato.
3. Use the Novotny correction equation. It’s most accurate mid to late in fermentation. I’ve verified it accurate to within 0.1 Plato (the accuracy of my hydrometer) many times. The Terril equation is more accurate early but that’s generally not a time of great interest.
1. The sample *must* be clear and degassed. I run all samples through a coffee filter first. This is especially critical during active fermentation. Sometimes twice.
2. Get a very accurate OG with a hydrometer. I use a precision hydrometer accurate to 0.1 Plato.
3. Use the Novotny correction equation. It’s most accurate mid to late in fermentation. I’ve verified it accurate to within 0.1 Plato (the accuracy of my hydrometer) many times. The Terril equation is more accurate early but that’s generally not a time of great interest.
From my experience, Terril's calculator was within a point or two of what was measured with a hydrometer and no where near that far off from what was expected. BUT she should get a hydrometer and check against the refractometer regardless.
If they both line up...then go back to process and ingredients.
Looks great. What was your grain bill for that?
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
65% 2row
30% Flaked Barley
5% honey malt. I’f it were a single ipa I’d prob drop this to 2.5-3%
I consider to be a point or two a lot, especially when dealing with spunding.
Novotny was less than half a point.
I do too....that's the reason I switched to using a hydrometer for final gravity. But that doesn't solve her problem. 1.011 to 1.013 isn't as far off as 1.011 is to 1.020 or even 1.013 to 1.020. I think there is more to the problem than just the right calculator is what I'm saying.
SRJHops
Why did the rabbit like NEIPA's so much?
This recipe pretty much sums up the debate I am having (with myself and via this thread) about the amount of hops I need to use and when. Call this the Shellhammer vs. Tonsmeire dilemma if you will.
Shellhammer's research suggests that (at least for Citra), dry hop extraction maxes out at about 6 ounces (for a 5 gallon batch). And yet... Tonsmeire uses the equivalent of about 12 ounces in the DH in what he says is one of the best NEIPA's he's brewed:
https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/07/cryo-lupulin-neipa-citra-mosaic.html
Oh, and note that he adds the WP hops at FO and doesn't do a long stand, so there's that too!
Shellhammer's research suggests that (at least for Citra), dry hop extraction maxes out at about 6 ounces (for a 5 gallon batch). And yet... Tonsmeire uses the equivalent of about 12 ounces in the DH in what he says is one of the best NEIPA's he's brewed:
https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/07/cryo-lupulin-neipa-citra-mosaic.html
Oh, and note that he adds the WP hops at FO and doesn't do a long stand, so there's that too!
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Citra? Is that a new paper? Shellhammer's "classic" paper on "don't overdo the dry hop rate" was with Cascade.
You can imagine that the optimal rate will be different for different varieties, particularly ones that rely more on rare compounds like thiols for their flavour.
You can imagine that the optimal rate will be different for different varieties, particularly ones that rely more on rare compounds like thiols for their flavour.
SRJHops
Why did the rabbit like NEIPA's so much?
Sorry, thought it was Citra... Should have looked it up before posting. Yeah, it would be great to have research on each of the hops, or maybe understand better what specific factor is the driver -- is it amount of hop oil maybe?
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
It'll be more complicated than that - as much as anything it will depend on the "bad" components of flavour rather than the "good" ones. And for instance whether the specific yeast strain is releasing flavour compounds bound as glycosides in the hops.
But just anecdotally old-school hops like Cascade don't seem to "work" particularly well at the high hopping rates found in NEIPAs, whereas the likes of Citra and Mosaic seem to work much better.
But just anecdotally old-school hops like Cascade don't seem to "work" particularly well at the high hopping rates found in NEIPAs, whereas the likes of Citra and Mosaic seem to work much better.
SRJHops
Why did the rabbit like NEIPA's so much?
Interesting... and of course complicated (it really is a complicated style, I think).
Do you have a general rule of thumb for the amount of DH in a 5-gallon batch? Or does it really vary depending on the hops? For example, I would never use 6 ounces of Galaxy in the DH, although I am sure somebody out there is doing it and getting great results!
But I've been pulling back the DH amounts. However, that Tonsmeire recipe has got me thinking of adding more back in again...and maybe some cryo.
Loud Brewing
Well-Known Member
There is an episode of the brulosophy podcast that discusses Shellhammers study in detail. Definitely worth a listen.
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
I’ve had your beer brother, Besides having hop burn it was good. Solid aroma. If I’m you all I do is completely eliminate your fermentation dryhop and keep the dryhop between 5-8 oz.
nick sekerak
Well-Known Member
I just pull the prv on the keg lid once I tip it upsidedown and all the sanitizer shoots out. Just don’t let all the pressure out keep a constant flow and you will not have to mess with your dip tube. Also the keg lid is the lowest point when you tip it upside down so everything sits right there untill you release the prv
SRJHops
Why did the rabbit like NEIPA's so much?
Thanks! My latest was DH'd after fermentation... Jury still out. It is a good beer, but it seems like I lost some flavor. Giving it another week to see what happens. But wondering if a little DH on day 3 or 4 might bring some flava back...
Or it could be that I went with less fruity hops like Columbus and Simcoe.
Going back the the classics next time = Citra and Mosaic and Galaxy....
SO what temp are people dryhopping at these days? I just added my dry hop and set the temp to 62. I used Omega OYL-091 and fermented at 90. The thing ripped through fermentation in 24 hours. I then lowered it to 85 for 12 hours then down to 62 over the next 12 hours. OG was 1.048 and its been at 1.010 for 24 hours. I added 6 oz of dry hop and set PSI to 5. Have not used this yeast before so I am thrown off on how to end the fermentation stage and trying to time adding dry hops. Usually like to add dry hops with a few points left but kind of missed the window.
Before adding dry hops I dumped the yeast but did not seem like a ton. Will see how this goes.
Before adding dry hops I dumped the yeast but did not seem like a ton. Will see how this goes.
VirginiaHops1
Well-Known Member
I just used WLP066 London Fog for the first time. Wow it shredded. Took it from 1.070 down to 1.009, 84% attenuation. I had read it didn't typically attenuate that great.
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
My brother in law just had that experience with fog on two beers back to back 152* mash went to 1.009 so then he pumped it to 154 and finish 1.011. Oddly enough I didn’t perceive the 1.009 one as dry
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
It seems to me many lower oil content and less pungent varieties dont work that well in a neipa.
Cascade is one of those hops you need more from to get any pungent aroma.
If you are looking at a limit with this sort of hop I'd imagine you would run into much lower limits as the green flavor of the hop starts to come through much faster then with a pungent variety, masking any oil flavor.
I believe though that probably the most legit reason to go over 3 - 4lbs per bbl is to prolong flavor and aroma not as much amplify it.
Maybe something important for a packaged product that breweries dont have any control over in terms of time of consumption.
Then there is the marketing part and people that always want to go over the limit and quadruple dry hop their beers cause it sounds great. Had a few 5 - 6+ lbs per bbl neipa and couldnt say I was impressed.
For the homebrewer I would argue if you drink your beer from keg always stored cold within 2 months I'd be reluctant to dry hop that high as the pro's do.
At a homebrew level we also get better extraction so less hops are needed and there is definately such a thing as "overhopping".
Something happening faster on homebrew level then at pro level.
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VirginiaHops1
Well-Known Member
Awesome, I'm hoping mine doesn't taste dry either but hopefully the 8% ABV will help with that
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
Which mash temp?
Did you add any adjuncts?
Do you aerate your wort? How?
Any simple sugars added?
Frieds
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beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
Thanks.. That's roughly 84% attenuation. I have a hard time getting above 70%. Can't be oxygenation issue for me if you are getting that low.
couchsending
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I would say that’s rather atypical for that yeast but you never know.
@beervoid I’d say your results are more typical honestly.
Wrinkletusk
Well-Known Member
If the Tilt has any caked-on krausen, then it isn't likely to be reporting the correct FG. I always pull the Tilt after racking (without cleaning the caked-on krausen) and put it in water to see how far off I am from 1.000. My last brew was reading 1.009 before racking, and in water the Tilt was reporting 0.995. Corrected to 1.014 puts the brew fermented with 1318 bang-on at 75% attenuation.
BrewCityBaller
Well-Known Member
I just want to double-check, this is what you are using, correct?
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...gon_Wine_Preserver_1024x1024.png?v=1510702312
SRJHops
Why did the rabbit like NEIPA's so much?
Yes. Different brand but same stuff, though that brand looks a little pricier. The can I buy is under $10. I use it after fermentation when I am dry hopping, to purge oxygen. Seems to work!
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IB7PHSE/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_vueZDb9KH0WZQ
In theory you could also use it to purge headspace, but I have not found that necessary for my beers.
I think the biggest reason my bottle conditioned NEIPA's don't oxidize is that I bottle right from the fermenter into bottles with sugar already in them.
Bottlers also have an advantage because the fermenting yeast in the bottle scrubs oxygen.
On the other side of the coin, though, we may lose some aroma if we use oxygen absorbing caps.
Despite all the pressure to keg (pun intended), I see no reason why bottle conditioned NEIPA's can't be excellent if you work to reduce oxygen exposure.
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BrewCityBaller
Well-Known Member
Excellent, thanks for the help! Dryhopping tonight, so I am just working on my process. Looking forward to trying my NEIPA with late dryhops instead of active fermentation. Also used Hornindal Kveik this time instead of Juice. We'll see how it goes!
