New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[beervoid]

So if the top 6 inches of your mash is at your desired mash temp with the separate thermo...what temp does the installed probe read at the bottom?

Roughly 2 fahrenheit difference

 

[leesmith]

Roughly 2 fahrenheit difference

Above or below mash temp?

 

[wepeeler]

I’ve had your beer brother, Besides having hop burn it was good. Solid aroma. If I’m you all I do is completely eliminate your fermentation dryhop and keep the dryhop between 5-8 oz.

I think the jury is still out on a lot of different dry hopping techniques. Seems like everyone has a little different idea on what's best, which is great for experimentation. I got to speak a little with Scott Janish, and I asked him what he thought about dry hopping during primary fermentation vs letting the yeast floc out first. He said he would love to see (taste) a side by side and see if he could tell the difference. The conflicting views of biotransfermation is that although geraniol is converted to citronellol (citrus, fruity), the co2 pushes the aroma out of suspension. Then there's the thought that dry hopping after the yeast has flocced keeps the oils from being dragged down by the yeast. You just don't get the biotransformation (is BT even necessary?) I've had good luck with BT (I think?). I typically do a small BT dry hop and another a few days before kegging to get more aroma and flavor. I haven't done it enough to have a final say as to what works best (for me), but the beer has always tasted great. I love reading about other people's experiences with dry hopping schedules.

 

[Dgallo]

I think the jury is still out on a lot of different dry hopping techniques. Seems like everyone has a little different idea on what's best, which is great for experimentation. I got to speak a little with Scott Janish, and I asked him what he thought about dry hopping during primary fermentation vs letting the yeast floc out first. He said he would love to see (taste) a side by side and see if he could tell the difference. The conflicting views of biotransfermation is that although geraniol is converted to citronellol (citrus, fruity), the co2 pushes the aroma out of suspension. Then there's the thought that dry hopping after the yeast has flocced keeps the oils from being dragged down by the yeast. You just don't get the biotransformation (is BT even necessary?) I've had good luck with BT (I think?). I typically do a small BT dry hop and another a few days before kegging to get more aroma and flavor. I haven't done it enough to have a final say as to what works best (for me), but the beer has always tasted great. I love reading about other people's experiences with dry hopping schedules.

Thats certainly true about dryhoping but it’s been proven that fermentation is the cause for binding polyphenols and proteins together and also causes a longer lasting haze and keeps more polyphenols in suspension Polyphenols at a certain threshold causes hop burn. So for me the only logical explanation is that active fermentation dryhoping or/and experiencing hopcreep is the cause for the most of the hopburn. My last 4 beers have proven this theory for me at least. Did two in a row with dryhoping 4 oz in active ferm without dropping yeast and then did two back to back without active ferm dh and dropped yeast. The first two had hopburn and the last two had none.

 

[sjfischr]

I would say that’s rather atypical for that yeast but you never know.

@beervoid I’d say your results are more typical honestly.

I've logged on to this thread to also report that recently, I've been experiencing higher-than-normal attenuation from 1318, after years of pokey, 70-75%.
Using 1318 for years, I've controlled temperature, even overpitched in over to boost cell count--but recently I've been using different fermenters and adding more hops.

Taking everything else out of the picture, I'm wondering if it's one of two things:
-- Fermenting under pressure using the FermZilla fermenter
-- Free dry hopping (no mesh/screen)--this could very well be increasing the chances of hop creep as depicted in Janish's book

Thoughts?

 

[SRJHops]

Thats certainly true about dryhoping but it’s been proven that fermentation is the cause for binding polyphenols and proteins together and also causes a longer lasting haze and keeps more polyphenols in suspension Polyphenols at a certain threshold causes hop burn. So for me the only logical explanation is that active fermentation dryhoping or/and experiencing hopcreep is the cause for the most of the hopburn. My last 4 beers have proven this theory for me at least. Did two in a row with dryhoping 4 oz in active ferm without dropping yeast and then did two back to back without active ferm dh and dropped yeast. The first two had hopburn and the last two had none.

Did the the two without hop burn have the same great flavor as the burners (once they settled down)?

I wonder if using just an ounce or two in active would bring a little more flavor but without the burn?

My very favorite NEIPAs do seem to have some burn... Maybe to get such huge flavor you need a little burn in return?

 

[Dgallo]

Did the the two without hop burn have the same great flavor as the burners (once they settled down)?

I wonder if using just an ounce or two in active would bring a little more flavor but without the burn?

My very favorite NEIPAs do seem to have some burn... Maybe to get such huge flavor you need a little burn in return?

Yeah they actually had a better varietal specific flavor and aroma.

Idk, my experiment was for with 4oz or w/o, I didn’t try to scale it back. I’m sure there could a sweet spot and get the best of both world with get hopburn.

 

[Dgallo]

@SRJHops and for clarification total dryhop was the same for the beer, hop varieties did change

 

[SRJHops]

Yeah they actually had a better varietal specific flavor and aroma.

Idk, my experiment was for with 4oz or w/o, I didn’t try to scale it back. I’m sure there could a sweet spot and get the best of both world with get hopburn.

My latest is 2.5 weeks in the bottle now, so nearing peak. I soft crashed after fermentation and dry hopped at 60. Again at 70 2 days before bottling, then soft crashed again. Does seem smoother, but lacks flavor I seek. Could be that I need to use fruitier hops...or maybe I do need a small dh on day 3? Thinking 2 ounces citra or 1 ounce galaxy...

 

[beervoid]

Above or below mash temp?

Higher, there is some heat loss due to recirculation which stabilized after a while.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

He said he would love to see (taste) a side by side and see if he could tell the difference.

Cloudwater did exactly that with their DIPA v4/5 back in 2016. They had feedback from over 300 people, and the result was that 52% prefered a blend of the two, 25% preferred v5 (dry hopped solely after fermentation, 23% preferred v4 (hopped solely during fermentation). So thereafter they went with dry hopping during fermentation and afterwards.

It's only one test, but at least it was done on a larger scale than most, by brewers who know what they're doing (those DIPAs would push Cloudwater to second in the world on Ratebeer).

The conflicting views of biotransfermation is that although geraniol is converted to citronellol (citrus, fruity)

Well, there's a deeper problem in that people use the word biotransformation to refer to two separate things, the release of flavour compounds that are bound to the hops as glycosides etc, and the conversion of hop compounds into different ones (as in the geraniol -> citronellol example you give).

They're different processes. I've mentioned previously my experience of really blatant conversion of Chinook grapefruit into a more complex, limey flavour by T-58, and Scott has referred to something similar with ?1318? from memory. The tradeoff is that you lose maybe 20% of the intensity in return for more complexity. But people seem to mostly be interested in glycoside release when they talk about biotransformation, they're not talking about adding complexity.

 

[JohnnyJohnJohns]

What's the best way to avoid hop bite? I've had a couple of NEIPAs that have been really juicy and smooth but the majority I've had over here (Ireland) really catch the back of my throat with hop bite (polyphenols?). I'd like to brew one of these bit avoid that unpleasant finish. Any recommendations?

 

[couchsending]

Don’t dry hop it during really active fermentation

Don’t use a lot of CaCl

Give it more time to cold condition

 

[Dgallo]

What's the best way to avoid hop bite? I've had a couple of NEIPAs that have been really juicy and smooth but the majority I've had over here (Ireland) really catch the back of my throat with hop bite (polyphenols?). I'd like to brew one of these bit avoid that unpleasant finish. Any recommendations?

Like @couchsending said, limit active fermentation dh (I’ve personally eliminated it), limit your calcium ppm(I have good luck keeping it under 100ppm). Crashing always helps

 

[SRJHops]

Nice article on NEIPA's by Randy Mosher in the new Craft Beer & Brewing Magazine. Also includes a Pinthouse Pizza recipe for Fog Runner, a 9% DIPA NEIPA (5 gal) that dry hops (Galaxy, Strata, Citra) on Day 2 using 22 ounces pellet and 3 ounces Cryo = about 28 ounces! So, they either know something we don't, or they are wasting a ton of hops...

 

[couchsending]

They do a lot of things very differently than a lot of breweries producing this style. Never had their beer. Only use the breweries who’s beer I’ve had as reference for most styles. They also use a yeast that you’ve never used for this style and probably few have that have read this thread.

 

[Dgallo]

Nice article on NEIPA's by Randy Mosher in the new Craft Beer & Brewing Magazine. Also includes a Pinthouse Pizza recipe for Fog Runner, a 9% DIPA NEIPA (5 gal) that dry hops (Galaxy, Strata, Citra) on Day 2 using 22 ounces pellet and 3 ounces Cryo = about 28 ounces! So, they either know something we don't, or they are wasting a ton of hops...

@PianoMan knows the brewers at pint house well and if I recall correctly they don’t keg until day 21 after significant crashing. ( @PianoMan correct me if I have that wrong) . So they are certainly accounting for their hop burn.

Edit***
But from my personal experience theyre wasting at minimum 12 oz of hops

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Correct. 17days min in primary from what I understand. They use a lot of cryo hops dry hopping also but with circulation, they can get it done in minutes. Again my understanding.

@PianoMan knows the brewers at pint house well and if I recall correctly they don’t keg until day 21 after significant crashing. ( @PianoMan correct me if I have that wrong) . So they are certainly accounting for their hop burn.

Edit***
But from my personal experience theyre wasting at minimum 12 oz of hops

 

[wepeeler]

Thats certainly true about dryhoping but it’s been proven that fermentation is the cause for binding polyphenols and proteins together and also causes a longer lasting haze and keeps more polyphenols in suspension Polyphenols at a certain threshold causes hop burn. So for me the only logical explanation is that active fermentation dryhoping or/and experiencing hopcreep is the cause for the most of the hopburn. My last 4 beers have proven this theory for me at least. Did two in a row with dryhoping 4 oz in active ferm without dropping yeast and then did two back to back without active ferm dh and dropped yeast. The first two had hopburn and the last two had none.

Hoping to brew more frequently in the coming months, which will allow me to experiment more with dry hopping. For the last neipa I made I dry hopped only post fermentation. It definitely didn't have the typical hop burn even when it was young, but I used Apollo and Citra, which I hadn't used in combination before. Forever learning...

Cloudwater did exactly that with their DIPA v4/5 back in 2016. They had feedback from over 300 people, and the result was that 52% prefered a blend of the two, 25% preferred v5 (dry hopped solely after fermentation, 23% preferred v4 (hopped solely during fermentation). So thereafter they went with dry hopping during fermentation and afterwards.

It's only one test, but at least it was done on a larger scale than most, by brewers who know what they're doing (those DIPAs would push Cloudwater to second in the world on Ratebeer).



Well, there's a deeper problem in that people use the word biotransformation to refer to two separate things, the release of flavour compounds that are bound to the hops as glycosides etc, and the conversion of hop compounds into different ones (as in the geraniol -> citronellol example you give).

They're different processes. I've mentioned previously my experience of really blatant conversion of Chinook grapefruit into a more complex, limey flavour by T-58, and Scott has referred to something similar with ?1318? from memory. The tradeoff is that you lose maybe 20% of the intensity in return for more complexity. But people seem to mostly be interested in glycoside release when they talk about biotransformation, they're not talking about adding complexity.

Interesting take on the Cloudwater exBEERiment. Basically people couldn't decide what they actually liked, from the % data provided. The blend being the most popular, and each dry hop being equally liked. The data reveals an almost perfect split of both (the blend) and then an equal split of ferm dry hopping vs post ferm dry hopping. At least that's what I'm getting from the data. Just like a Brulosophy exBEERiment (inconclusive).

As for biotransformation, I was under the impression that non aromatic glycosides turn to terpenoids which = aroma. And there have been some brewers on the fence on to whether or not these volatile compounds get blown off by the co2. The conversion of the geraniol to citronellol is for flavor. These compounds are more soluble and tend to stay in the solution. I could be wrong, or misinterpreted what I've been reading, so this is great to keep the mind wheels turning. Thanks.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Interesting take on the Cloudwater exBEERiment. Basically people couldn't decide what they actually liked, from the % data provided. The blend being the most popular, and each dry hop being equally liked. The data reveals an almost perfect split of both (the blend) and then an equal split of ferm dry hopping vs post ferm dry hopping. At least that's what I'm getting from the data. Just like a Brulosophy exBEERiment (inconclusive).

I'd disagree that "people couldn't decide" - people individually had favourites, but different people like different things. And that's fine - the implication is that brewers should decide for themselves what works best for their individual taste (and accept that other people will have different tastes). That's a long way from being "inconclusive".

As for biotransformation, I was under the impression that non aromatic glycosides turn to terpenoids which = aroma.

It's not that they "turn into" anything, they are already there but just not available to the beer.

It's not quite the same, but imagine that you have a chilli plant that's too big to fit in your saucepan. The chillis are "unavailable" to anything that you cook in the saucepan. But a yeast comes along with a pair of scissors, it can cut the chillis off the plant and then you can either add the chillis direct to whatever you cook in the saucepan, or eg cut them up for even more capsaicin-y goodness.

 

[RoguePixels]

Brewed this today following the grain bill and had no issues until it came time for the post boil hop addition. I ordered citra, mosaic and galaxy hops and picked them up from my home brew shop the other day. I should have checked prior to this but they mixed it up and gave me centennial instead of citra. I rolled with it and did 2 oz each of centennial, mosaic and galaxy. When it's time to dry hop should I omit the centennial so it doesn't dry out the finish too much and use something else? If so what? My home brew shop is close so I should have access to most hop strains.

 

[couchsending]

Brewed this today following the grain bill and had no issues until it came time for the post boil hop addition. I ordered citra, mosaic and galaxy hops and picked them up from my home brew shop the other day. I should have checked prior to this but they mixed it up and gave me centennial instead of citra. I rolled with it and did 2 oz each of centennial, mosaic and galaxy. When it's time to dry hop should I omit the centennial so it doesn't dry out the finish too much and use something else? If so what? My home brew shop is close so I should have access to most hop strains.

Are you referring to hop creep drying it out? Mosiac has just as high of a likelihood of causing hop creep as Centennial. You have no idea if the hops you have have the enzymes or not. I’d just roll with what you have.

 

[SRJHops]

Brewed this today following the grain bill and had no issues until it came time for the post boil hop addition. I ordered citra, mosaic and galaxy hops and picked them up from my home brew shop the other day. I should have checked prior to this but they mixed it up and gave me centennial instead of citra. I rolled with it and did 2 oz each of centennial, mosaic and galaxy. When it's time to dry hop should I omit the centennial so it doesn't dry out the finish too much and use something else? If so what? My home brew shop is close so I should have access to most hop strains.

I'd roll with what you have... While I don't see a ton of recipes with Centennial, I don't see why it would be a bad choice for a NEIPA. Should get some floral and hopefully some lemon/citrus...

 

[stickyfinger]

after a few comparisons i’m thinking mosaic added before cold or soft crashing results in a different flavor than when added after cold/soft crashing. others agree? i like that resinous flavor when added warmer.

 

[aaronm13]

Just catching up on this post as I haven't read it for a while. I've just brewed my latest version with Citra, El Dorado and Idaho 7. For the amount of hops in it I'm definitely not blown away by flavor or aroma. There's 400g/14oz of dry hops in it.

Reading the last few pages and my mind is blown with the whole idea of not using hops 24-48 hours into fermentation. The brewery's that don't use this practice is definitely leading me to at least try it out for my next batch. So a question for the people that don't dry hop till fermentation is finished, do you find the haze of the beer suffers because of this or is there no visible difference?

I don't get a lot of hop bite from my beers once they condition for around a week but would definitely like to lock the aroma in. My practice is, first dry hop in fermenter. Then transfer to keg by closed transfer and do the second dry hop, then to another keg for the third dry hop. Finally to a serving keg. My fridge smells amazing when I dry hop in the fermenter so this aroma is definitely going somewhere besides the beer.

 

[LumberZach]

Just catching up on this post as I haven't read it for a while. I've just brewed my latest version with Citra, El Dorado and Idaho 7. For the amount of hops in it I'm definitely not blown away by flavor or aroma. There's 400g/14oz of dry hops in it.

Reading the last few pages and my mind is blown with the whole idea of not using hops 24-48 hours into fermentation. The brewery's that don't use this practice is definitely leading me to at least try it out for my next batch. So a question for the people that don't dry hop till fermentation is finished, do you find the haze of the beer suffers because of this or is there no visible difference?

I don't get a lot of hop bite from my beers once they condition for around a week but would definitely like to lock the aroma in. My practice is, first dry hop in fermenter. Then transfer to keg by closed transfer and do the second dry hop, then to another keg for the third dry hop. Finally to a serving keg. My fridge smells amazing when I dry hop in the fermenter so this aroma is definitely going somewhere besides the beer.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You transfer your beer 3 times before getting it into a serving keg? If that's right, I have to ask why. You shouldn't have to transfer more than once (from your fermenter to your serving keg).

The last beer I made I did a very small dry hop charge (2oz.) on day 2. After fermentation was complete on day 7, I did a soft crash at 58F for 24 hours and then hopped it with 6oz. I let that sit for 48 hours, and did a 24 hour crash at 48F before transferring to my keg. It was probably the most hop saturated and aromatic beer I've brewed in recent memory. Haze stability was excellent. Lasted right around two months, and was just as hazy as it was on day 1.

 

[aaronm13]

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You transfer your beer 3 times before getting it into a serving keg? If that's right, I have to ask why. You shouldn't have to transfer more than once (from your fermenter to your serving keg).

The last beer I made I did a very small dry hop charge (2oz.) on day 2 and then did a 6oz. dry hop after fermentation was done and I did a soft crash to 58F. It was probably the most hop saturated and aromatic beer I've brewed in recent memory. Haze stability was excellent. Lasted right around two month and was just as hazy as it was on day 1.

You understand correctly. Because of the high amount of hops I want to increase contact area. It's a bit of extra work but would like to think it's worth it. Was pretty underwhelmed as I said even with the high level of dry hops.

 

[LumberZach]

You understand correctly. Because of the high amount of hops I want to increase contact area. It's a bit of extra work but would like to think it's worth it. Was pretty underwhelmed as I said even with the high level of dry hops.

I would ditch all the transfers personally. I have a 6 gallon Fermonster with a modified lid and floating dip tube to do pressure transfers to my serving keg. I have no issue with getting plenty of contact area.

The last neipa I brewed was the first time I went light on the biotransformation dry hop and did a post fermentation dry hop. I think the key is to do a soft crash between 58-60F for 24 hours before doing the final dry hop.

 

[Dgallo]

You understand correctly. Because of the high amount of hops I want to increase contact area. It's a bit of extra work but would like to think it's worth it. Was pretty underwhelmed as I said even with the high level of dry hops.

Are all your kegs completely void of o2? Like @LumberZach noticed, that’s a lot of transfers. Every transfer is a opportunity for oxidation to occur, especially if the kegs are properly purged.

Regardless of the process, a slight amount of oxygen will get in every transfer, usually such a small amount that will not affect the beer as long as all other processes are sound, But with more racks that increases this slight oxidation. If I were you I’d look into some better practices for your keg. Maybe a CBD system in a keg so it can become a dryhop/serving keg

 

[aaronm13]

I would ditch all the transfers personally. I have a 6 gallon Fermonster with a modified lid and floating dip tube to do pressure transfers to my serving keg. I have no issue with getting plenty of contact area.

The last neipa I brewed was the first time I went light on the biotransformation dry hop and did a post fermentation dry hop. I think the key is to do a soft crash between 58-60F for 24 hours before doing the final dry hop.

I've started doing the soft crash to 58 my last few brews. I use the Ss Brewtec bucket and would not like to dump that amount of hops into it and expect a smooth transfer.

The Shellhammer study is leading me to think I might be using too much hops. The hops I can get in my country are a terrible quality so have switched to ordering in hops from Yakima valley to see if that helps. Would like them to last a little longer that they do as shipping is very expressive.