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bwible

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Ron Pattinson always has an interesting take, and writing style on... well.. everything..

IPA "inflation"...

Why PA?
I just bought 2 of his books - ‘Bitter’ and ‘Mild’. The Bitter book looks awesome, I cannot believe how thick it is. Been reading some of his stuff online and it is really interesting.
 

ajbosley2015

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I actually made a 259 IBU Hatch Chile IPA that was 2nd at the best in show table at a national competition. Y’all just sound pretentious and silly tbh
 

bwible

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Playing devils advocate here . What about IPAs that are less then 5.5 abv . They call them session IPAs . However IPAs were originally made higher then 5.5 , so are they not IPAs?
...
If I feel like a NEIPA I drink it.
The difference is that “Session IPA” is just about always clearly labelled as “Session IPA” (because the low alcohol is a selling point) and even if it wasn’t you can read the label and see “IPA” and the listed alcohol percentage and know what’s in your hand. Unless its a “Session NEIPA”, I suppose. The biggest complaint is that NEIPAs are far too frequently not labelled using those words or that designation. People just want to know what they are buying when they spend their money.
 
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bwible

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Imagine being served a pale crystal clear stout, wouldn't that be odd and off-putting?
Don’t have to imagine. It’s a thing. People are actually making blonde stouts. And Imperial mild. There is no sanity anymore.

 

Jeff Kroosz

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The consumers drive American craft brew. Until they stop buying them, hazies will persist.
Look at seltzer, still trending, and expanding into craft taprooms.
 
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The consumers drive American craft brew. Until they stop buying them, hazies will persist.
Look at seltzer, still trending, and expanding into craft taprooms.
Like so many in this thread, this misses the point. It's not about trying to get rid of hazies, it's about not labeling them the same thing as a west coast IPA or any other IPA.
 

Jeff Kroosz

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Like so many in this thread, this misses the point. It's not about trying to get rid of hazies, it's about not labeling them the same thing as a west coast IPA or any other IPA.
My question is...what beer would you brew to keep the lights on, if you were opening a taproom tomorrow?
 

bwible

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My question is...what beer would you brew to keep the lights on, if you were opening a taproom tomorrow?
You want to have a lineup - not 7 taps with the same beer.
The brewpub near us has a blonde ale, a red ale, a honey brown ale, a west coast ipa, a stout, a porter, and even sources a cider. They do have one neipa and also a saison. That’s a pretty good lineup that offers something for everybody.
 
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IvanCAllen

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Looks like it coulda used some donut bourbon barrel vanilla aged pastry milkshake avacado toast infused lacto pedofile soured smooth churn wet hopping. And prison. And mamma and rain and pickup trucks.

The country western ipa. You saw it here first.

[Edit: with apologies to country western songs everywhere. Because avacado.]
100% what you said. ----- 0h-- and trains.
 

OldDogBrewing

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My question is...what beer would you brew to keep the lights on, if you were opening a taproom tomorrow?
You want to brew a range of beers that you think people will enjoy, but you want to pay the bills too, so I would personally brew something "hazy" or better said, something juicy and soft

In fact I'm interested in opening a brewery, things are at a stop now because you know, the virus and all, and a hazy is on my mind for sure
 
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My question is...what beer would you brew to keep the lights on, if you were opening a taproom tomorrow?
I'm not questioning anybody's right to brew whatever beer they want. I just want, as a consumer, to be able to tell what I'm getting into before it shows up.

I personally don't care much for this hazy craze. I just want to be able to avoid them, but if other people love them, then that is their business.
 

OldDogBrewing

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I'm not questioning anybody's right to brew whatever beer they want. I just want, as a consumer, to be able to tell what I'm getting into before it shows up.

I personally don't care much for this hazy craze. I just want to be able to avoid them, but if other people love them, then that is their business.
I get your point, but a west coast is not exactly the same as an historical IPA, do we stop calling them IPAs too?

I understand your point in pastries, which in my opinion should be called pastry blond, or pastry pale or whatever as they are not hop focused as an IPA (an american, the original wasn't that much hop focused) should be, but you regular NEIPA it's just a result of a better management of both brewing water and hops to extract its best potential, is it wrong to call them IPAs? I don't thing so, I particularly think west coast and NE should be different in name, but without stripping any of them from the IPA surname

I myself have suffered the feeling of thinking I was going to enjoy a West Coast as I was feeling like that at the moment and finding something called IPA was in fact a NE and the reverse way too, there is a brewery in my country that doesn't differentiate too much their IPAs, they do it sometimes but not always, I bought an IPA that was supposed to be a NEIPA as they mostly brew that, I wanted a NEIPA that day and I got something piney and bitter, it ruined my day, well not really, but I wasn't happy about it
 
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I get your point, but a west coast is not exactly the same as an historical IPA, do we stop calling them IPAs too?

I understand your point in pastries, which in my opinion should be called pastry blond, or pastry pale or whatever as they are not hop focused as an IPA (an american, the original wasn't that much hop focused) should be, but you regular NEIPA it's just a result of a better management of both brewing water and hops to extract its best potential, is it wrong to call them IPAs? I don't thing so, I particularly think west coast and NE should be different in name, but without stripping any of them from the IPA surname

I myself have suffered the feeling of thinking I was going to enjoy a West Coast as I was feeling like that at the moment and finding something called IPA was in fact a NE and the reverse way too, there is a brewery in my country that doesn't differentiate too much their IPAs, they do it sometimes but not always, I bought an IPA that was supposed to be a NEIPA as they mostly brew that, I wanted a NEIPA that day and I got something piney and bitter, it ruined my day, well not really, but I wasn't happy about it
I suppose I would have to concede that point. Out of pride I'd prefer to call the west coast IPA and American IPA, but the NEIPA has gotten enough foothold and market that it should at least stand alongside the west coast version.

To be honest, I don't really care what names things are given or the hierarchy. I just want to be able to tell the difference from the label so I can get what I want.
 

grampamark

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I came across a recent release from Deschutes Brewing recently, a fruity, loads-of-late-hops beer called Neon Daydream. The label called it a “hazy ale”. To me, that’s a better descriptor of that style than is IPA.

Imagine if Alchemist had called Heady Topper a hazy ale when it was introduced. We probably wouldn’t be having this discussion today.
 

Rick Crane

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I have always associated hazy beer with something that went wrong while brewing. I want nothing to do with a hazy beer. I've had a few they taste OK. Sometimes at a brewery I throw caution to the wind and tell them i will have a glass of what's popular right now. I do mention though to the beer tender, i always thought a hazy beer meant something went wrong. Something probably did go wrong, but you threw a goofy name on it and put some hype behind it and said lets sell it!
 

OldDogBrewing

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I have always associated hazy beer with something that went wrong while brewing. I want nothing to do with a hazy beer. I've had a few they taste OK. Sometimes at a brewery I throw caution to the wind and tell them i will have a glass of what's popular right now. I do mention though to the beer tender, i always thought a hazy beer meant something went wrong. Something probably did go wrong, but you threw a goofy name on it and put some hype behind it and said lets sell it!
Well the more hazy (not murky) is a NEIPA, it means the more hop compounds have been biotransformed so the better is the beer, I understand your thinking because it's how it was in most of the styles, but it's outdated nowadays thanks to all the discoveries in the use of hops
 

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I accidentally bought a hazy the other day. I was reaching for a lager from a stack of 12 packs and didn't notice until I got home that it was actually a hazy in the same color packaging as the lager. (I'm not always the most detailed guy!) I'm not sure if the sign was wrong or they were just stacked right next to each other.

It's actually not that bad. If I pour really slowly and leave about 2 oz in the bottom of the can, It pours bright, has a great aroma and enough bite to be refreshing on the palate. If I pour the dregs out of the bottom of the can it's muddled thick and cloudy. The difference is night and day in my opinion.
This is interesting that you found a 12 pack of quality hazy. A 12 pack of the average hazy beers I like would be close to 50 dollars. I must admit I am seeing more and more poor examples, but good beers like king sue are still available. There are a few decent 12 packs out there I suppose, glad you found one. I am drinking light beer mostly now for calories.

For those new to this thread you need reminded that the complainers here are too cheap to have bought a real 4 pack like king sue and I feel this is their real issue, well that and they are talking about beers like juicy bits pina colada that they have never actually had, only think they know what it is like. The op started this discussion using can o bliss as an example. I have harped on this many times because this beer which is 6.99 for a 6 on sale at kroger I found off putting as well. But you know, if can o bliss at 6.99 sucks then king sue at 16 for 4 does too. It's an old tired dog that will never hunt. No one wants an overly bitter crystal 60 bomb except a cheapskate.
 

bwible

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This is interesting that you found a 12 pack of quality hazy. A 12 pack of the average hazy beers I like would be close to 50 dollars. I must admit I am seeing more and more poor examples, but good beers like king sue are still available. There are a few decent 12 packs out there I suppose, glad you found one. I am drinking light beer mostly now for calories.

For those new to this thread you need reminded that the complainers here are too cheap to have bought a real 4 pack like king sue and I feel this is their real issue, well that and they are talking about beers like juicy bits pina colada that they have never actually had, only think they know what it is like. The op started this discussion using can o bliss as an example. I have harped on this many times because this beer which is 6.99 for a 6 on sale at kroger I found off putting as well. But you know, if can o bliss at 6.99 sucks then king sue at 16 for 4 does too. It's an old tired dog that will never hunt. No one wants an overly bitter crystal 60 bomb except a cheapskate.
You’re talking to people who pay $30 for a 4 pack of a good barleywine. So no, we’re not cheapskates worried about cost.
 

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I had a reality check at a big event (as defined in our current covid world, about 25 people on the back deck with at least some form of social distancing) at my house last week. I had 5 of my best home brews to show off: IPA, Helles lager, brown ale, an ESB (which won 1st in a large local competition), and a stout. These were all neighbors, not a brew community (of which there is none around here). Again, all great beers. The consumption results: 1 brown ale, 4 ESBs (since I bragged about its win), ZERO stouts, ONE IPA! (since I accidentally poured this instead of the lager and they drank it anyway to be nice, but then said they preferred the lager), and a KEG+ of the Helles. Yes, the lager really is great, but that was not the real reason for this.

Obviously this is not representative of the population as a whole, but it definitely is where I live! My problem now is when I brew a batch (typically 10-12 gallons) of non-lager beer, then I am faced with my wife and I having to drink almost the entire batch (there are worse problems to have in life!). The 'good' news is that I will have no shortage of help in draining my lager productions... :no:
 

bwible

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I had a reality check at a big event (as defined in our current covid world, about 25 people on the back deck with at least some form of social distancing) at my house last week. I had 5 of my best home brews to show off: IPA, Helles lager, brown ale, an ESB (which won 1st in a large local competition), and a stout. These were all neighbors, not a brew community (of which there is none around here). Again, all great beers. The consumption results: 1 brown ale, 4 ESBs (since I bragged about its win), ZERO stouts, ONE IPA! (since I accidentally poured this instead of the lager and they drank it anyway to be nice, but then said they preferred the lager), and a KEG+ of the Helles. Yes, the lager really is great, but that was not the real reason for this.

Obviously this is not representative of the population as a whole, but it definitely is where I live! My problem now is when I brew a batch (typically 10-12 gallons) of non-lager beer, then I am faced with my wife and I having to drink almost the entire batch (there are worse problems to have in life!). The 'good' news is that I will have no shortage of help in draining my lager productions... :no:
Not really a surprise to me. Everybody loves to knock on BudMillerCoors, but the reality is they are billion dollar empires for a reason. Lager beer is still the most popular beer, especially outside “craft beer” circles. The only thing that comes close in my experence is wheat beer. People who don’t like beer like wheat beer.

An interesting side note: I’ve found many women prefer dark beers like stouts and porters, RIS. At least many of the women I know.
 
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NewJersey

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This is my favorite brewery in my state. They do excellent award winning stouts, all kind of barrel aged stuff, they have a coolshop and do spontaneous fermentation, they've out out great saisons, have made many great lagers, and this is their current lineup. Out of all those IPAs only 1 or 2 are not full on New Englands.
They used to have incredible variety. No longer.

Whoever mentioned craft moving to seltzers- my wife and I visit a tiny brewery we like pretty often and I talked to them about seltzers. They take table sugar and water, add a flavor, and ferment. It's easier and way less work. Same price as beers. Some customers want it. Why WOULDN'T craft brewers do this?
Also, every craft brewer making seltzers where I live actually makes stuff that is way better than white claw and all the commercial stuff. Jussayin
 

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bwible

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This is my favorite brewery in my state. They do excellent award winning stouts, all kind of barrel aged stuff, they have a coolshop and do spontaneous fermentation, they've out out great saisons, have made many great lagers, and this is their current lineup. Out of all those IPAs only 1 or 2 are not full on New Englands.
They used to have incredible variety. No longer.

Whoever mentioned craft moving to seltzers- my wife and I visit a tiny brewery we like pretty often and I talked to them about seltzers. They take table sugar and water, add a flavor, and ferment. It's easier and way less work. Same price as beers. Some customers want it. Why WOULDN'T craft brewers do this?
Also, every craft brewer making seltzers where I live actually makes stuff that is way better than white claw and all the commercial stuff. Jussayin
I bought the Seltzer book Chris Colby just put out and I went through it. It’s very difficult to get a clean, neutral fermentation of table sugar and water - even with yeast nutrients, etc. I remember trying this ages ago when alcopops were all the rage. Most homebrewers also don’t filter, so your homemade seltzer is not going to be crystal clear like White Claw or Truly.

If I were going to make seltzer, I’d probably just use vodka and dilute it to about 5% and add flavoring, then force carbonate in a keg. My wife likes pineapple or pina colada. The drawback is you have a full keg of the same flavor and not the variety you get when you buy it. My kegs are 3 gallons so that wouldn’t be awful. What would be awful is having to dedicate a keg to seltzer and not having it available for beer.

I found a great resource for flavorings made specifically for the alcohol industry - Apex flavors.

2 brands own about 65% of the seltzer market. White Claw and Truly. Truly is made by Sam Adams. Take a look at the price of Sam Adams stock right now. It’s over $1,000 a share.
 
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Not really a surprise to me. Everybody loves to knock on BudMillerCoors, but the reality is they are billion dollar empires for a reason. Lager beer is still the most popular beer, especially outside “craft beer” circles.
True words^^^^

Main stream beer drinkers writ large DO NOT "look" (think) like we on this forum do. We (craft brew 'appreciators') like many different beer styles, and like to try new things. Joe Sixpack (the other 90%) just want their Buuddd. And that's O.K. But it's wrong to to think that we comprise anything other than the minority. Man is a creature of habit and most (not all) gravitate to what they grew up watching Dad drink. It takes a motivating factor to break out of the mold you grew up in.

Somewhere along the way we evolved from BMC drinkers to craft beer aficionados. The majority have not. We are a subset of all beer drinkers. Likewise, I view NEIPA fans as a subset of craft beer drinkers. We all have our favorites, and mine just happens to NOT be NEIPAs. I approached the phenomenon with an open mind, and even got within a road trip's 50 miles distance from Alchemist Brewing to score some of the legendary nectar before a family emergency made us turn back. So I went down to the local beer shop, renowned for a top flight selection of rare beers, to snag up a couple of his most highly recommended. Four 4 packs and about $100 later I was left non-plussed and a bit confused as to what the excitement was all about. I feel like I gave it an honest look/see, but concluded that it was just not my cup'o'tea (or mug of beer).

I really like hops and I love trying new, trendy things. NEIPA just didn't light my fire. Maybe it's the haze, After all, sight is a major portion of food and beverage enjoyment, along with taste and smell. Any chef will tell you that presentation plays a huge role in the food industry. After wasting my youth and under-age drinking years swilling cheap $1.00 a 6-pack pseudo beer, anything I drink had better have clarity. Today I work hard to craft a variety of good tasting and good looking beers. Continental lagers (clear, brilliant) are still my favorite, followed closely behind by Blonde ales and West Coast IPAs (depending on my mood, but still clear). There are others that I like as well and brew often, but NEIPAs just never made it into my rotation. Not tryin' to be a beer snob, but neither am I a hipster with a man-bun. Drink what you enjoy and enjoy what you drink. Life's too short for anything else.
 
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applescrap

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You’re talking to people who pay $30 for a 4 pack of a good barleywine. So no, we’re not cheapskates worried about cost.
Except barleywine is awful ;) but anyone who drinks 4 packs of it is cool in my book.
 

bruce_the_loon

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The drawback is you have a full keg of the same flavor and not the variety you get when you buy it. My kegs are 3 gallons so that wouldn’t be awful. What would be awful is having to dedicate a keg to seltzer and not having it available for beer.
Never tried this, but what about flavouring at the time of serving? Like we used to do with the SodaSteam syrups? Is there anything in the process of flavoured seltzer that precludes having an unflavoured keg and adding the flavour on demand?
 

Iseneye

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Four 4 packs and about $100 later I was left non-plussed and a bit confused as to what the excitement was all about. I feel like I gave it an honest look/see, but concluded that it was just not my cup'o'tea (or mug of beer).
If you were that close to the brewery you were ripped off big time. I was there in 2019 and my recollection is around $12-13 for a four pack from the brewery and around $14-15 at shops in Burlington. So based on your $100 you were paying around $25 a four pack.
 

Dog House Brew

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True words^^^^

Main stream beer drinkers writ large DO NOT "look" (think) like we on this forum do. We (craft brew 'appreciators') like many different beer styles, and like to try new things. Joe Sixpack (the other 90%) just want their Buuddd. And that's O.K. But it's wrong to to think that we comprise anything other than the minority. Man is a creature of habit and most (not all) gravitate to what they grew up watching Dad drink. It takes a motivating factor to break out of the mold you grew up in.

Somewhere along the way we evolved from BMC drinkers to craft beer aficionados. The majority have not. We are a subset of all beer drinkers. Likewise, I view NEIPA fans as a subset of craft beer drinkers. We all have our favorites, and mine just happens to NOT be NEIPAs. I approached the phenomenon with an open mind, and even got within a road trip's 50 miles distance from Alchemist Brewing to score some of the legendary nectar before a family emergency made us turn back. So I went down to the local beer shop, renowned for a top flight selection of rare beers, to snag up a couple of his most highly recommended. Four 4 packs and about $100 later I was left non-plussed and a bit confused as to what the excitement was all about. I feel like I gave it an honest look/see, but concluded that it was just not my cup'o'tea (or mug of beer).

I really like hops and I love trying new, trendy things. NEIPA just didn't light my fire. Maybe it's the haze, After all, sight is a major portion of food and beverage enjoyment, along with taste and smell. Any chef will tell you that presentation plays a huge role in the food industry. After wasting my youth and under-age drinking years swilling cheap $1.00 a 6-pack pseudo beer, anything I drink had better have clarity. Today I work hard to craft a variety of good tasting and good looking beers. Continental lagers (clear, brilliant) are still my favorite, followed closely behind by Blonde ales and West Coast IPAs (depending on my mood, but still clear). There are others that I like as well and brew often, but NEIPAs just never made it into my rotation. Not tryin' to be a beer snob, but neither am I a hipster with a man-bun. Drink what you enjoy and enjoy what you drink. Life's too short for anything else.
If I had grown a man bun, my dad would have smacked me and cut it off. I don’t have hair now, Just say’n
I try really hard to like the NEIPA craze. I’ve found that the OtherHalf stuff style is me. I’ve found that the majority leaves me with an amazement of wtf? Muddled flavors, and an acrid type of something, not bitterness. Too many trying to produce the style without cohesive balance. There is way more to it than haze. The haze is the biproduct if something good happening, not the only intent. Reminds me of the early days of DIPA. More to it than wrecking a tongue.
 

Brooothru

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If you were that close to the brewery you were ripped off big time. I was there in 2019 and my recollection is around $12-13 for a four pack from the brewery and around $14-15 at shops in Burlington. So based on your $100 you were paying around $25 a four pack.
Naw, we were about 50 miles from Burlington when we got a call of a death in the family. Of course, the road trip immediately set a new destination in the GPS.

Since we left Vermont empty handed, a few weeks later I tried to scarf up a few examples of out-of-region brews imported from the Down East area. Since the haze craze had really taken off, any NEIPA was gonna' be expensive and probably of wannabe copy cat quality. $20-$25 for a 4 pack was pretty much the going freight for anything that could pass for NEIPA.

Brooo Brother
 

Iseneye

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Ok well you missed out big time. Heady topper and focal banger are not the same as what NEIPA is currently. They are intensely bitter, slightly hazy, and massively hoppy.
 
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