Making clear IPA again

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I struggle with chill haze, mostly. Always have, probably always will. Any good advice to combat that? I brew on a mash & boil ( no recirc), and chill with a IC. My current ipa is absolutely clear at the end of its carb time ( I’m a bottler!) but gets hazy for about five days in the fridge. The only one that never ever cleared was kveik voss. I’m pretty modest about DH and hopstand, though. I think the next brew I might try to push my hopstand out of my comfort zone
 
I've only ever used clarifiers on kolsches and light pilsner lagers. Neither of which are known for big-to-massive hop character, but folks appreciate an extra level of brightness in those styles. I blame the macros for that ;)

I haven't felt the need to use it on anything else (esbs, porters, stouts, wheat beers, fruited beers, pales/ipas/dipas/neipas) because who cares?
And I have a belief it's a hop character stripper, so there's no motivation.

Some of my brews clear eventually on their own. This is from the first keg of my latest wcipa brew that took a shortcut to the keezer with a one-day-carb (rock'n'roll method) two weeks ago. It's already markedly clearer and by the time this keg kicks its twin will likely be quite bright. And that's ok, I'm not one to fight physics :)

wcipa_02feb2021.jpg



Cheers!
 
Doesn’t gelatin just decrease time to clarity vs strip flavour? Interested in peoples experience there. I remember a brulosophy that validated this but can’t find the link.
 
Agree, I dont particularly care. Like the extra vitamins in hazy beer. But out of curiosity I tried the gelatin approaches.
 
I've only ever used clarifiers on kolsches and light pilsner lagers. Neither of which are known for big-to-massive hop character, but folks appreciate an extra level of brightness in those styles. I blame the macros for that ;)

I haven't felt the need to use it on anything else (esbs, porters, stouts, wheat beers, fruited beers, pales/ipas/dipas/neipas) because who cares?
And I have a belief it's a hop character stripper, so there's no motivation.

Some of my brews clear eventually on their own. This is from the first keg of my latest wcipa brew that took a shortcut to the keezer with a one-day-carb (rock'n'roll method) two weeks ago. It's already markedly clearer and by the time this keg kicks its twin will likely be quite bright. And that's ok, I'm not one to fight physics :)

View attachment 717241


Cheers!
This would have been considered *quite* hazy back in the day.
 
Brewing this up this weekend... Building on my success with the Simcoe/Cetennial/Amarillo combo, but I plan to make a few differences from my typical west coast IPA. I'm adding a bit of crystal for some more maltiness, trying out Amarillo Lupomax, using American instead of English yeast, and lowering the sulfate:chloride ratio from 250:50 down to 150:50 to get a better mouthfeel.

13 lb 2 row
3 lb Vienna
0.5 lb C40
0.5 lb Sugar

1 oz Warrior 60 min (42 IBU)
1 oz Simcoe 10 min (13 IBU)
1 oz Simcoe 0 min
1 oz Amarillo 0 min
1 oz Centennial 0 min
1 oz Simcoe Whirlpool (185 for 15 min)
0.5 oz Amarillo Whirlpool (185 for 15 min)
0.5 oz Centennial Whirlpool (185 for 15 min)
1 oz Simcoe Whirlpool (160 for 15 min)
0.5 oz Amarillo Whirlpool (160 for 15 min)
0.5 oz Centennial Whirlpool (160 for 15 min)
2 oz Centennial dry hop 1
2 oz Simcoe dry hop 1
2 oz Amarillo Lupomax dry hop 2

Imperial House

Sulfate:chloride 150:50
 
My mind on this topic has probably changes some since I first posted over on the "other thread" on this topic (which I stopped following a long time ago). I was probably in the camp that "NEIPA and American IPA are completely different styles." I focused on brewing a nice West Coast IPA that I enjoyed because they were so hard to find on tap. My "house" recipe started out as a clone of Racer 5, which some might call "classic" but I find light in body and not crazy bitter (the label does say 75 IBUs). My recipe used a lot of C hops!!

After a few iterations, I played around some with the hops. What if I reduced the bitterness? Added more hops? Move my late boil hops to flameout? Swapped out some hops for some newer "fruity/tropical" varieties? I could start to see where the two styles might not actually be as different as I once thought.

My last iteration, that was pretty darn nice, was the following:
  • 12 lbs (85.7%) Pale Malt
  • 1 lb 4 oz (8.9%) White Wheat Malt
  • 12 oz (5.4%) Carmel 20
  • 0.8 oz Warrior (28.5 IBU) Boil 60 min (Edit: Just a 30 min boil)
  • 2 oz Mosaic (5.7 IBU) Flameout w/ 5 min steep
  • 1.5 oz Azacca (5.4 IBU) Flameout w/ 5 min steep
  • 1.5 oz El Dorado (6.8 IBU) Flameout w/ 5 min steep
  • 2 oz Mosaic Dry Hop 3 days
  • 1.5 oz Azacca Dry Hop 3 days
  • 1.5 oz El Dorado Dry Hop 3 days
  • WLP001 California
It looks like I used my standard West Coast IPA water profile of Sulfate: 201, Chloride 77. That is something that I could play with more.

I usually take a lot of pics of my beers, but I cannot see one of this batch other than a gravity reading on brew day. I recall it taking a little bit to drop clear and was never like a Bud, but was "homebrew clear."

The things that I have found to give a more permanent haze in NEIPA style beers are 1) appropriate yeast, 2) large whirlpool hop additions 3) large percentages of Wheat and Oats. It would kinda make sense to me that I should avoid some or all of these things if I want a beer to drop clear.

I do feel that in a well done NEIPA, there is some synergy of factors that I don't fully understand (proteins, hop compounds/oils, other stuff?) that result in the haze. I am not convinced you can get the same level of hop flavors in a clear beer, but maybe my opinion will change in the future.

I seem to recall Craft Beer and Brewing having a recent article on East-Meets-West-Style IPAs, but I could not find it (and it might be subscriber only). I was out in LA about a year and a half ago, and several breweries out there seemed to have beers on tap that I would fit into this category.
 
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My mind on this topic has probably changes some since I first posted over on the "other thread" on this topic (which I stopped following a long time ago). I was probably in the camp that "NEIPA and American IPA are completely different styles." I focused on brewing a nice West Coast IPA that I enjoyed because they were so hard to find on tap. My "house" recipe started out as a clone of Racer 5, which some might call "classic" but I find light in body and not crazy bitter (the label does say 75 IBUs). My recipe used a lot of C hops!!

After a few iterations, I played around some with the hops. What if I reduced the bitterness? Added more hops? Move my late boil hops to flameout? Swapped out some hops for some newer "fruity/tropical" varieties? I could start to see where the two styles might not actually be as different as I once thought.

My last iteration, that was pretty darn nice, was the following:
  • 12 lbs (85.7%) Pale Malt
  • 1 lb 4 oz (8.9%) White Wheat Malt
  • 12 oz (5.4%) Carmel 20
  • 0.8 oz Warrior (28.5 IBU) Boil 60 min (Edit: Just a 30 min boil)
  • 2 oz Mosaic (5.7 IBU) Flameout w/ 5 min steep
  • 1.5 oz Azacca (5.4 IBU) Flameout w/ 5 min steep
  • 1.5 oz El Dorado (6.8 IBU) Flameout w/ 5 min steep
  • 2 oz Mosaic Dry Hop 3 days
  • 1.5 oz Azacca Dry Hop 3 days
  • 1.5 oz El Dorado Dry Hop 3 days
  • WLP001 California
It looks like I used my standard West Coast IPA water profile of Sulfate: 201, Chloride 77. That is something that I could play with more.

I usually take a lot of pics of my beers, but I cannot see one of this batch other than a gravity reading on brew day. I recall it taking a little bit to drop clear and was never like a Bud, but was "homebrew clear."

The things that I have found to give a more permanent haze in NEIPA style beers are 1) appropriate yeast, 2) large whirlpool hop additions 3) large percentages of Wheat and Oats. It would kinda make sense to me that I should avoid some or all of these things if I want a beer to drop clear.

I do feel that in a well done NEIPA, there is some synergy of factors that I don't fully understand (proteins, hop compounds/oils, other stuff?) that result in the haze. I am not convinced you can get the same level of hop flavors in a clear beer, but maybe my opinion will change in the future.

I seem to recall Craft Beer and Brewing having a recent article on East-Meets-West-Style IPAs, but I could not find it (and it might be subscriber only). I was out in LA about a year and a half ago, and several breweries out there seemed to have beers on tap that I would fit into this category.
I’ve been reading Janish New IPA book and you are correct you cannot get the same hop flavour in a clear beer vs hazy. The higher viscosity of the hazy makes the aromatics of the hops more difficult to volatize in fermentation. At least that is my interpretation
 
WLP007 seems to drop clear fairly quickly without fining. I've used it on my last 3-4 batches including a hazy IPA. Didn't like the hazy as much after it cleared and the flavor definitely seemed to change some so I personally think there are flavor component changes as a beer clears, at least for highly hopped beers. I did like the WLP007 on the west coast DIPA I used it on.
 
Can we minimize polyphenols and protein and still get big hop flavor?

In my limited understanding of the matter, you can if you make an alcoholic maceration of the hops as you would for a maceration that you use as a substitute for dry hopping, and then distill the maceration instead of putting it in the beer as-is. The distillation should let the polyphenols, the resins, the bitter substances in the kettle and give you an essence which only contains the "perfumes" of the hops, the essential oils.

For this kind of work you can use a small laboratory - herbalist - chemist distiller, with a 1 litre kettle or smaller.

This is all theory so far as far as I am concerned, I have never produced such an essence yet, although I am seriously planning to do this within the year. I think this could be a direction in which to investigate.

Buying a new piece of equipment only for IPAs might seem too expensive, but you can also use it for coriander and other spices, for gin, for bitter, for mistrà... :)
 
I'm bottling this 4 gallon batch of DIPA today. I used both wirlflock hot side fining (1/4 tab for 4.25 gallons) and gelatin after cold crashing. Soft crashed to 50F on day 11 of fermentation to drop the yeast. Raised back up to 60F on day 13 and dry hopped at a rate of .9 oz/gallon. After 3 days dry hop at 60 degrees I cold crashed to 35 for 4 days. It took overnight to get to 35 degrees in my modified dorm fridge. Once it hit 35 I added gelatin. I put the fermenter on the kitchen counter a 70 degrees yesterday and it cleared quite a bit overnight as it warmed up. Not sure what is up with that. Chill Haze?

4 gallons into fermenter:
8 lb - pale 2 row, 68.8%
2 lb - German Vienna, 17.1%
8 oz - Carapils, 4.3%
8 oz - CaraVienna 20L, 4.3% (I wanted 15-20 crystal and this is what the LHBS had)
11.5 oz - Demerara cane sugar, 6.1%

Hops: 76 IBU
30 min - 30g Centennial
10 min - 11g CTZ, 14g Simcoe, 30g Centennial
5 min - 15g Simcoe, 20g Centennial

Whirlpool/steeped hops added at 170 degrees and allowed to cool naturally, stirring occasionally for 20 minutes. - 20g Simcoe, 20g Centennial.

Dry hop 3 days @ 60F - 20g Sabro, 25g Simcoe, 56g Centenial (it's what was left in the bag)

OG: 1.075
FG: 1.019 - 71% AA, typical of A38

So this was bottled on Jan 22, picture taken March 1st. Its pretty much the same today, March 24. It is better in March than it was in February. It's not really clear. I used whirlflock in the boil but no gelatin if favor of avoiding oxygen exposure. So it looks like .9 oz of dry hop per gallon and A38 Juice (LA III) does not produce a very clear IPA but I am pleased with the beer. It will be a month or two before I get the opportunity to take another run at a "Juicy" clear IPA.

1616606208391.jpeg
 
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If you want to brew a classic West Coast IPA, follow a classic recipe by reducing dry hopping to 0.25 oz/gal.

A juicy clear beer might be hard to pull off but reducing dry hop time (to a day or less) or using cryo hops could help.
 
This was my dry hopped west coast style dipa. It was truly a thing of beauty and tasted pretty damn good too! View attachment 723385
I does look great man! Mind sharing your grain bill on this one? Assuming you got a nice dose of crystal/caramel malts to get that nice copper color? Also assuming you didn't load up on high polyphenol hops which tend to add to haze.
 
I does look great man! Mind sharing your grain bill on this one? Assuming you got a nice dose of crystal/caramel malts to get that nice copper color? Also assuming you didn't load up on high polyphenol hops which tend to add to haze.
Pale ale malt as the base at 85%, 7% white wheat, 4% flaked oats and 4% crystal 60. It was magnum for bittering addition at 60, and then falconer’s flight for a 10 minute addition, a whirlpool addition and again for a dry hop. I didn’t use any post boil fining agents, only whirfloc during the boil. I think this is up there as one of the best looking beers I have brewed and it was pretty darn tasty as well. Think I will try this same grain bill with different hop combinations to see what I think.
 
Thanks! .25 oz/gallon whirlpool, 1.5 oz/gallon for the dry hop.

That dry hopping seems crazy to me. That’s NEIPA level. I’m actually surprised it’s still so clear. Do you think you’re getting good bang for your buck with that level of dry hopping in this beer?
 
Thanks! .25 oz/gallon whirlpool, 1.5 oz/gallon for the dry hop.
Thank you @Elric for joining the discussion. I'm curios what yeast you used? So dry hop at 1.5 oz per gallon with Falconer's Flight and no haze. That's a pretty healthy dry hop addition. I found this below in a quick search for Falconer's Flight hops. For a juicy profile my limited experience I would tend towards the Centennial and Citra portion of the blend.

Falconer’s Flight® is a proprietary blend of Pacific Northwest hops. These include 7 “C” hops, Cascade, Centennial, Chinook, Citra®, Cluster, Columbus and Crystal in addition to experimental varieties developed by Hopunion LLC.
 
To be perfectly honest I wasn’t trying for either a hazy or clear IPA, I just wanted a good medium for the hops and figured with falconers being a blend of the classic c hops that a more west coast malt bill would fit my desires. Basically I had two ounces of ff that I wanted to use and had decided that I would be using them in a one gallon batch, so I split the hops into late boil, whirlpool and dry hop additions as I saw fit.
I fermented hot with Voss Kveik. Almost everything I did screams hazy, except I waited for primary fermentation to finish (so theoretically less or no bio-transformation) and brought temps down for the dry hop and cold crashed it for three days before kegging it.
 
I fermented hot with Voss Kveik. Almost everything I did screams hazy, except I waited for primary fermentation to finish (so theoretically less or no bio-transformation) and brought temps down for the dry hop and cold crashed it for three days before kegging it.

I just kegged a Pale Ale made with Voss. I am curious if it will drop clear. 85% 2-Row, 10% Flaked Oats, 5% Crystal 40. The hopping rate was pretty light...0.4 oz per gal combined late boil and dry hop and another 0.4 oz per gal dry hop (both where split with Citra and Mosaic). I cold crashed to 40F before adding the dry hop. I meant to burst carb it overnight to help push it along...but I flipped the wrong valve so my already carbonated Saison got 10 hours at 30 PSI.
 
Every time I have used flaked oats, the mass of protein has settled in the bottom of the fermenter, with clear beer on top.
 
You can make the same beer clear or hazy bitter or not with just process tweaks... literally the same grain bill, hop timing and amounts and yeast strain.

Certain hops are high in polyphenols, they will tend to leave beer with a significant haze unless you fine it cold side. Others are not and will result in a clearer beer using the same process.

“Modern” IPA whether it’s hazy or not is more focused on hop aromatic and flavor than IPAs of 6/8/10 years ago. Pliny is dry hopped at 2#/bbl I believe and that’s Pale ale dry hopping levels for a lot of the great hoppy beer breweries now. “Standard” IPA dry hopping rates are closer to 4#/bbl. East or west coast

A lot has come to the surface in recent years about crystal/cara malts and even dark Munich and the oxidative effect they have on hoppy beers. I’d call most well made IPAs these days just hop delivery vehicles with not much more than base malt and often times the cleanest most boring base malt out there... looking at you Canadian Pilsner malt. And believe it or not you can make a permanently hazy beer with just Pilsner malt...

The two breweries that really pioneered “hazy” beer (Alchemist and Hill Farmstead) both make bitter beers. Edward is 80+ theoretical IBUs at 5.2%. However they were often times a softer bitterness due to a better understanding of water and other aspects of the brewing process that affect bitterness and also their yeast which tends to be a bit softer.

As is standard in everything the pendulum has swung way to far and what so many people think is supposed to be NEIPA is now murky, sweet, chalky, and tastes/smells like rotting fruit and is honestly horrible. Chasing an aesthetic has been the goal not making great hoppy beer.

Paying attention to the pH of your boil, your water chemistry and especially in regards to your intended FG, and kettle finings usage can have a huge inpact on the final beer.

In my experience it’s actually easier to make very hazy beer with highly flocculent yeast. The more yeast in suspension the more likely the beer is to clear over time. If you want crystal clear highly hopped beer you really need to fine it.

Recipe of 2 row, dextrin, and some small percentage of character malt is all you malt is all you need... try to get as clear or a wort into the kettle as possible.. higher kettle pH equals better isomerizartion and protein coagulation, lower boil pH equals lower isomerizartion and less protein coagulation. Targets should be different depending on the finished beer. I sometimes do additions at 60 but usually just 30/10/180 WP. Kettle finings if you want clearer beer, no finings if you don’t. Ferment on the cooler side with a high floccing English yeast. Dry hop sub 60 after removing as much yeast as possible. If you really want crystal clear beer definitely fine it, although you lose hop character IMHO.
 
You can make the same beer clear or hazy bitter or not with just process tweaks... literally the same grain bill, hop timing and amounts and yeast strain.

Certain hops are high in polyphenols, they will tend to leave beer with a significant haze unless you fine it cold side. Others are not and will result in a clearer beer using the same process.

“Modern” IPA whether it’s hazy or not is more focused on hop aromatic and flavor than IPAs of 6/8/10 years ago. Pliny is dry hopped at 2#/bbl I believe and that’s Pale ale dry hopping levels for a lot of the great hoppy beer breweries now. “Standard” IPA dry hopping rates are closer to 4#/bbl. East or west coast

A lot has come to the surface in recent years about crystal/cara malts and even dark Munich and the oxidative effect they have on hoppy beers. I’d call most well made IPAs these days just hop delivery vehicles with not much more than base malt and often times the cleanest most boring base malt out there... looking at you Canadian Pilsner malt. And believe it or not you can make a permanently hazy beer with just Pilsner malt...

The two breweries that really pioneered “hazy” beer (Alchemist and Hill Farmstead) both make bitter beers. Edward is 80+ theoretical IBUs at 5.2%. However they were often times a softer bitterness due to a better understanding of water and other aspects of the brewing process that affect bitterness and also their yeast which tends to be a bit softer.

As is standard in everything the pendulum has swung way to far and what so many people think is supposed to be NEIPA is now murky, sweet, chalky, and tastes/smells like rotting fruit and is honestly horrible. Chasing an aesthetic has been the goal not making great hoppy beer.

Paying attention to the pH of your boil, your water chemistry and especially in regards to your intended FG, and kettle finings usage can have a huge inpact on the final beer.

In my experience it’s actually easier to make very hazy beer with highly flocculent yeast. The more yeast in suspension the more likely the beer is to clear over time. If you want crystal clear highly hopped beer you really need to fine it.

Recipe of 2 row, dextrin, and some small percentage of character malt is all you malt is all you need... try to get as clear or a wort into the kettle as possible.. higher kettle pH equals better isomerizartion and protein coagulation, lower boil pH equals lower isomerizartion and less protein coagulation. Targets should be different depending on the finished beer. I sometimes do additions at 60 but usually just 30/10/180 WP. Kettle finings if you want clearer beer, no finings if you don’t. Ferment on the cooler side with a high floccing English yeast. Dry hop sub 60 after removing as much yeast as possible. If you really want crystal clear beer definitely fine it, although you lose hop character IMHO.
Lots of good info there. Thanks for contributing to the conversation.
 
thanks for all of the information and beer pics. I've been missing the traditional clear and bitter IPA with simcoe and centennial hops. i'll probably work in a Amarillo, mosaic, or citra, as a late addition. have some wlp001 on hand too but have been considering trying a kviek yeast. likely will use similar malt bills noted above. 80%pale, 15%vienna, 5% dextrine and crystal
 
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I disagree that fining is required for crystal clear beer. We lagered a doppelbock for 90 days (no fining) and you could read the paper through it.
That’s a long time to wait for clear beer but you could be right anyway. I typically use 1/2 whirfloc tab per 5 gallons , but now having cold crash ability, might not need it.
 
Bumpity.

Anyone have experience with S33? I'm about to bottle a batch this weekend using it and it's significantly more hazy than I'm used to. Now, I've read that it doesn't floc super great, so I'm not worried, but curious if any folks had it clear up for them without finings soon after packaging.
I plan on brewing a couple different IPAs (with different hopping schedules) with different yeasts this summer, so hopefully I remember to update as I go. S33 was first, but at some point I have verdant ipa and another attempt at voss scheduled.
 
Anyone have experience with S33?

The depth of my experience is a batch that I kegged about a week ago (split, half with US-05, half with S-33). It was a Pale Ale with hops in a 170F hopstand, but no dry hops. The US-05 batch is more clear but the S-33 batch is not far behind. I got 68% attenuation on the S-33. I get a character that I could see fitting "dried apricot". I am not sure it is a character that I want is a classic American IPA or Pale Ale, but I could see it working in a fruity...ummmm...hazy! :oops: (I picked up the pack of S-33 with a plan to try it in a hazy, but figured I would give it a try in a Pale Ale.)
 
The depth of my experience is a batch that I kegged about a week ago (split, half with US-05, half with S-33). It was a Pale Ale with hops in a 170F hopstand, but no dry hops. The US-05 batch is more clear but the S-33 batch is not far behind. I got 68% attenuation on the S-33. I get a character that I could see fitting "dried apricot". I am not sure it is a character that I want is a classic American IPA or Pale Ale, but I could see it working in a fruity...ummmm...hazy! :oops: (I picked up the pack of S-33 with a plan to try it in a hazy, but figured I would give it a try in a Pale Ale.)
Yeah, I went into it knowing that it was going to be better suited for a hazy, but was curious of any experiences in a WCIPA/american ipa type. I pitched most of the packet into that IPA, and used the leftover into a small batch DIPA which is definitely more aimed at being a hazy. Nottingham drops everything clear for me, but its so boring...
 
Second bottle of my latest using S33. Centennial, mosaic, Idaho 7. Some nice fruit from the mosaic and I7, but heavier pine and citrus (which I like). Shocked that S33 dropped this clear with whirlfloc being my only fining. I also usually have chill haze but this is after maybe 2-3 days in the fridge.
DB8DEF75-E1D0-4787-8C8F-30BDB3DDD640.jpeg

Not getting a ton in the way of apricot but my senses aren’t what they used to be. It could be there, and I’m mistaking it for the fruitier hops. It’s working for me, though.
 
Second bottle of my latest using S33. Centennial, mosaic, Idaho 7. Some nice fruit from the mosaic and I7, but heavier pine and citrus (which I like). Shocked that S33 dropped this clear with whirlfloc being my only fining. I also usually have chill haze but this is after maybe 2-3 days in the fridge.
View attachment 729343
Not getting a ton in the way of apricot but my senses aren’t what they used to be. It could be there, and I’m mistaking it for the fruitier hops. It’s working for me, though.

Beautiful beer. Can I ask what your grain bill is on that? Your tasting notes sound exactly what I like in an IPA.
 
Sure! It was pretty basic. I'm one of those guys that still likes crystal malts, and 40L is my go-to. I'm not a fan of pushing all hop additions to after the boil and have sorta landed on 15/5m addition while still using a hopstand
Screen Shot 2021-05-17 at 2.25.04 PM.png


I undershot my OG for about 4points and ended up at 1.060. FG 1.015. Mashed at 150 for a full hour. I use a tilt and dry hopped when it showed about 80-90% done. There was definitely still fermentation taking place, and the hops stayed in the fermenter for 7-8 days before I bottled. I'm still working out kinks in that process for myself, but that seems to be working so far.
 
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