English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Miraculix]

Yes it certainly explains the attenuation, i'm looking at AA 87% right now... White Labs states 67-75% for WLP013 so I'm way above it. However, overnight mashing certainly feels like a good way for me to brew and I want to continue doing it if I can bring down the attenuation some. I might try to mash higher next time... maybe aiming for 70C/158F instead of 67C/152.5F? Not sure how much that would change things.

You think the long mash also explains my higher OG/mash efficiency than I usually have? I mean we're not talking a few percent here... I got an efficiency of 90% (Brewfather calculated) instead of my usual 75-ish.

I would go the full way and try with 72 C. Your long mash also certainly upped your overall efficiency, I experienced the same!

Hard to dial in, but once you got it, you got it. Good luck!

 

[DuncB]

@schmurf
Don't think I'll be trying that yet, other challenges post ferment to battle. Let us know the outcome though.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Any other Swedes or Euros here who have tried the hop variety Hulla Norrgård?
Got my hands on 2 bags and am gonna try them in a singel hop(for flavor and aroma additions atleast) best bitter to see what they bring to the table. From the description at humlegården they seem to be kinda similair to EKG but a bit more spicy.

 

[Miraculix]

Any other Swedes or Euros here who have tried the hop variety Hulla Norrgård?
Got my hands on 2 bags and am gonna try them in a singel hop(for flavor and aroma additions atleast) best bitter to see what they bring to the table. From the description at humlegården they seem to be kinda similair to EKG but a bit more spicy.

That sounds promising! Let us know how it goes!

 

[monkeymath]

Any other Swedes or Euros here who have tried the hop variety Hulla Norrgård?
Got my hands on 2 bags and am gonna try them in a singel hop(for flavor and aroma additions atleast) best bitter to see what they bring to the table. From the description at humlegården they seem to be kinda similair to EKG but a bit more spicy.

Since the B-word fully kicked in and themaltmiller became less appealing as a source, I've been looking at a Swedish homebrew shop for my next major order. I'm really curious about Scandinavian hops, so please do let us know how it turns out!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

@Miraculix @monkeymath Will report back with tasting notes once the beer is done, but it will probably be awhile with bottle conditioning/maturing and all. The brown ale should be done soon, hopefully it tastes good despite my mash F-up. Historic hops are really interresting, the Hulla Norrgård is mentioned the first time in 1634, but likely it had been grown on farms and homesteads for hundreds of years before that.
I have an 1.077 Imperial Stout fermenting with the Brewly yeast now(with no mash F-ups), it has been fermenting for 5 days but I will let it go 2 more before checking the first gravity sample, looks like there is not much more activity though. So if you are interrested in trying that strain it seems to be a beast when treated right.

 

[Miraculix]

Since the B-word fully kicked in and themaltmiller became less appealing as a source, I've been looking at a Swedish homebrew shop for my next major order. I'm really curious about Scandinavian hops, so please do let us know how it turns out!

Same story here... I miss the malt miller .

It was my favourite shop back in my UK times.

 

[bwible]

View attachment 727945
This is the porter I have on tap at the moment;
70% Maris Otter
18% Brown Malt
6% Crystal 70/80
6% Pale Chocolate
30IBU of Fuggle at 60min
WLP033 Klassic Ale
Was shooting for about 1050 but got 1045 and then low attenuation so a easy drinking 3.7%ABV .

So this would be more like a dark mild? I’d always thought Mild could be done as a second runnings off a Porter.

 

[bwible]

I think this guy makes interesting videos, this one in particular might be of interest pertaining to this thread:

I'm making an ESB of some sort for my next brew. I really like the dual crystal idea, using both medium and high L's, found above and will incorporate that.

Great video. Thanks for posting!

I think ESB is no longer its own style or sub-category as of the most recent version of the BJCP guidelines. They lump it into the strong bitter category now. The argument being it is not a style of beer but rather really one beer being produced by one brewery.

Also very noteworthy where he says 28 or 29 winning recipes reviewed over the last couple years, but none of these was awarded best of show. This was my experience also back when I was entering competitions. I have about 11 first place ribbons for Mild Ale, 4 or 5 for English Pale Ale and I never won a best of show. These British styles tend to not do well in best of show rounds. Why exactly that is, I’m not sure. Judge’s preferences/bias? I see alot of things win best of show that are either loaded with hops or are something unusual. I’ve seen “Kellerbier” get it (a cloudy pilsener) or a maple mead.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Also very noteworthy where he says 28 or 29 winning recipes reviewed over the last couple years, but none of these was awarded best of show. This was my experience also back when I was entering competitions. I have about 11 first place ribbons for Mild Ale, 4 or 5 for English Pale Ale and I never won a best of show. These British styles tend to not do well in best of show rounds. Why exactly that is, I’m not sure. Judge’s preferences/bias? I see alot of things win best of show that are either loaded with hops or are something unusual. I’ve seen “Kellerbier” get it (a cloudy pilsener) or a maple mead.

I have a suspicion that it has to do with the national beer culture a là Alsworth.

US brewers/drinkers/judges are looking for the biggest, driest, sweetest, fullest, lightest, hoppiest, most malty, least malty, haziest, clearest, newest, etc.

British brewers/drinkers are looking for the most balanced, drinkable beer they can put down all night at the pub.

By definition, the best British-style beer will be understated compared to flashier styles.

What's going to win best of show? A Lamborghini or the Honda that'll take your newborn home from the hospital then to college 18yrs later?

 

[Miraculix]

I have a suspicion that it has to do with the national beer culture a là Alsworth.

US brewers/drinkers/judges are looking for the biggest, driest, sweetest, fullest, lightest, hoppiest, most malty, least malty, haziest, clearest, newest, etc.

British brewers/drinkers are looking for the most balanced, drinkable beer they can put down all night at the pub.

By definition, the best British-style beer will be understated compared to flashier styles.

What's going to win best of show? A Lamborghini or the Honda that'll take your newborn home from the hospital then to college 18yrs later?

You said it way more kindly then I would...

I would simply say, it is because the majority of the American people do not know anything about British beer

Don't get me wrong... same aplies to Germans. In fact, Germans do not know anything about beer, except for lagers and Hefeweizen, so we are even more narrow minded then you guys from across the pond.

I had life throwing me beer knowledge into my head by kicking my ass out of Germany to live for five years in the UK, so I was lucky. Otherwise I still would not know anything about British beer. What a miss that would be!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I would simply say, it is because the majority of the American people do not know anything about British beer

That may be true, but DBhomebrew's point still stands, it's just in the nature of things that "showier" drinks will catch the attention after a long day with tired palates. I well remember a big wine tasting I went to where there were some of the world's greatest Rieslings on one of the last tables I went to, and I just didn't get what the fuss was about. I then had the opportunity to taste them "fresh" another day, and completely got what the fuss was about.

Also I [Edit:don't!!!] think that competitions particularly suit British styles just from a practical point of view - they would much rather be served from a properly stillaged and vented cask rather than a bottle, and many competitions tend to throw everything into a fridge which is too cold for British styles.

So it's not just the US - I'm trying to think if a classic British style has made it into the final 3 of BrewCon UK, I think a porter has, but usually it's a token lager and then something more showy like a DIPA or wood-aged.

 

[bwible]

Due to the Covid, competitions being done here now are virtual. They are 3 bottle competitions. Judges are assigned the flights and given the bottles and they collaborate by Zoom or virtual meetings. Each of 2 judges has their bottle at their house. The third bottle is for best of show round for the beers that make it. So best of show will not be on the same day as the judging of the individual categories. It will be interesting to see if this changes anything.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

So my brown ale is coming along nicely, tasted one yesterday and there was definetely a nutty taste to it, gonna let it sit in the fridge for a week at least so the chill haze drops and it clears back up again. Next time I will probably drop the OG a bit to .44 and mash at 69c/60 min, should give me an AA of about 74-75% to dry it out a little bit more and add some biscuit to the bill to get a bit more toastyness to it. Or perhaps mash at 67c/50 min as last time and add some cane sugar in the boil to dry it out a little.
The yeast worked really good @Miraculix , it's a dry yeast so I don't expect any complexity from it, but there was certainly a little Englishness to it, will probably become my go to for Imp stouts, ordinary stouts, browns and porters, it worked through an Imperial Stout wort .77 to .24 in about 5 days.

 

[Miraculix]

So my brown ale is coming along nicely, tasted one yesterday and there was definetely a nutty taste to it, gonna let it sit in the fridge for a week at least so the chill haze drops and it clears back up again. Next time I will probably drop the OG a bit to .44 and mash at 69c/60 min, should give me an AA of about 74-75% to dry it out a little bit more and add some biscuit to the bill to get a bit more toastyness to it. Or perhaps mash at 67c/50 min as last time and add some cane sugar in the boil to dry it out a little.
The yeast worked really good @Miraculix , it's a dry yeast so I don't expect any complexity from it, but there was certainly a little Englishness to it, will probably become my go to for Imp stouts, ordinary stouts, browns and porters, it worked through an Imperial Stout wort .77 to .24 in about 5 days.

Sounds good! Did you also try vardant IPA and can maybe compare?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Sounds good! Did you also try vardant IPA and can maybe compare?

I haven't tried that one yet. Might do it in the brown sometime in the future. This friday I will probably brew up the best bitter with Hulla Norrgård hops.
I opened a pack and they smelled wonderfully, a faint sweet citrus smell with a more dominating woody, herbal aroma, all very delicate and subtle though, it smells pretty noble hop like.

 

[Miraculix]

I haven't tried that one yet. Might do it in the brown sometime in the future. This friday I will probably brew up the best bitter with Hulla Norrgård hops.
I opened a pack and they smelled wonderfully, a faint sweet citrus smell with a more dominating woody, herbal aroma, all very delicate and subtle though, it smells pretty noble hop like.

That sounds perfect for a bitter. I'll be brewing a red ale with Chinook and lutra, not British at all

 

[DuncB]

Going for another crack at the Five points bitter clone.
Have got the water profile exact, mash pH perhaps a bit lower than it should be with a prediction of 5.11
Have got the correct yeast and starter is cooking. Rainy day here on sunday so seems perfect.
Will update with numbers post brewday.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Going for another crack at the Five points bitter clone.
Have got the water profile exact, mash pH perhaps a bit lower than it should be with a prediction of 5.11
Have got the correct yeast and starter is cooking. Rainy day here on sunday so seems perfect.
Will update with numbers post brewday.

I was gonna brew today, but we have newborn boy at home, and the older one has dragged a cold/cough home from daycare so I won't have time. The good news are that we all have taste/smell intact so likely not the 'Rona and we are starting to get better so hopefully on tuesday or wednesday.

 

[Miraculix]

@kmarkstevens
Certainly did taste good, but you can't be too careful in these cases and I tested another couple just to be sure!

Man, also got this insecurity. I think I also need to check a few bottles of my last bitter... There might be something going on, after three or maybe four I might be sure that everything is safe till Saturday night. Then I might need to check again, for science reasons.

 

[DuncB]

@Miraculix I'll Asterix that idea.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I was gonna brew today, but we have newborn boy at home

Congratulations!

 

[30_Ounce]

Great video. Thanks for posting!

I think ESB is no longer its own style or sub-category as of the most recent version of the BJCP guidelines. They lump it into the strong bitter category now. The argument being it is not a style of beer but rather really one beer being produced by one brewery.

Also very noteworthy where he says 28 or 29 winning recipes reviewed over the last couple years, but none of these was awarded best of show. This was my experience also back when I was entering competitions. I have about 11 first place ribbons for Mild Ale, 4 or 5 for English Pale Ale and I never won a best of show. These British styles tend to not do well in best of show rounds. Why exactly that is, I’m not sure. Judge’s preferences/bias? I see alot of things win best of show that are either loaded with hops or are something unusual. I’ve seen “Kellerbier” get it (a cloudy pilsener) or a maple mead.

I won best of show and a Pro Am at Odell’s With my Northern English Brown. That beer also won 2nd best of show in a prior competition. I agree with you that judges tend to look at the wow factor in best of show and it takes a very mature judge panel to weed through and find an English beer as best in show. Of course that beer has to be extraordinary.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@schmurf

Just so you can see how the 5 points came out. No finings, magic beer.
Ed at Five points submitted the photos to their internal great lacing pictures.

Getting ready to brew the next batch to be ready in about a month.
View attachment 729308View attachment 729307

Do you have a recipe?
I have this and looked at the website but missing OG, FG, IBU, etc

 

[DuncB]

@kmarkstevens
Re five points bitter
Did you look at this website?

The water profile they recommend is on my above post.
Regarding the water profile for Best, I have this from the head brewer: "Hi mate, if you could pass to on aim for ~190 ppm calcium, 200 ppm chloride and 330 ppm sulphate."

https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/five-points-best-best-bitter/
Managed to hit 1041 with my brew yesterday of this. I used Golden promise, wheat malt, amber malt and Medium crystal.
Bumped the hops up a bit as my batch was 30 litres, really good starter, ferment going like a rocket at the moment 19 celsius open.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@DuncB thanks. I had copied over your link contents but left out the OG, FG, ABV and IBU for some bizarre reason.

Does WLP013 really make this beer or any recommended substitutes? Some place recommend Windsor (which I don't really like and would not torture this beer with)...

 

[DuncB]

@kmarkstevens
Well the brewer thinks it's important.

My first crack at it I used Wyeast 1098 and it came out a bit drier than I think it should have been. I thought it was meant to be wLP017 and couldn't get that but WLP013 is a stock item so current brew has that in. Apparently it adds some oakiness to the beer so will wait and see.
I would not use windsor again except just watched David Heath brew a low alcohol IPA using it and that's probably the only thing I'd try it in or to make bread.
I've been having a chat with @schmurf as he's just got a beer engine and was wondering about the flameout hops temp and duration before cooling for the five points beer. I will be enquiring of the brewer about this aspect when I've got some more photos to send them. Will update any info.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Sometimes people get very locked into particular varieties of "ordinary" malting barley like Optic or Propino, I came across this useful graphic of English maltster barley purchases which shows how they come and go really quite quickly. It also shows how irrelevant Maris Otter is in the wider scheme of things, it has a mindshare out of all proportion to how much is grown.

The bottom ones (Venture downwards) are winter varieties, which have really declined at the expense of spring varieties. A lot less was bought last year but it's still strange to see Propino and Concerto fade away, it seems no time since they were introduced.

 

[schmurf]

Looking great @DuncB! Mine is still fermenting, but I'm missing my expected numbers a lot in this brew. I got much better mash effiency than I usually have, maybe because I switched from Crisp to Simpsons in this one... I can't explain it otherwise. And I did an overnight mash which probably made the wort much more fermentable.... I'm down at 1.006 at the moment, hopefully won't get much further. So it looks like it will be a 5.5+ beer... not what I expected and it's much difference than my other attempts.

So here is the first pull of this Five Points Bitter, ended up with a whopping 5.6% instead of the expected 4.2%... but still a very nice drinkable beer. Still cloudy but I expect it to clear up a bit in the coming pulls. This one is fined with Harris Starbrite, and I have had mixed experience with it... some brews came out very clear and some not. Anyway... it's the taste that matters.

 

[DuncB]

@schmurf
Showing good progress, did a gravity test on mine last night and removed 500ml of yeast from the collection bottle. Already clearing in the fermentasaurus after 3 days from pitching. Gravity 1.011 and the hydrometer sample tasted promising. Different from the wyeast 1098 attempt.
I'm bumping the temp up a bit for 2 days of diacetyl rest. Looks like I missed the transfer to keg for final conditioning so will clear and condition in fermentasaurus and then transfer.
Any other clues on the taste? drinkable not that descriptive.
I might put some Super F finings in when I move the vessel to the cellar at 14 degrees.