Thanks to all for the feedback. I believe I'll start simple and just throw the sugar into the boil and adjust to more complex methods of warranted,.
English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?
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Fr_Marc
The brewing Vicar
This is a good starting point. If you are enjoying the rant, feel free to read the whole thread . 
https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83681&p=866449&hilit=Emulation#p866417
PeeBee has done some excellent research over there.
https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83681&p=866449&hilit=Emulation#p866417
PeeBee has done some excellent research over there.
It's mostly from posts by Ron himself on here and on other forums and posts on Barclay Perkin's suggesting most sugar manufacturers took steps to avoid caramellisation in their invert sugars. And that the ragus method or similair methods seem to have been common, ie starting with a pale yellowish base or #1 and back-adding molasses to get to the darker and more flavoured variants.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
If you have any direct links, that would be most appreciated. I have read a lot of Ron's blog, but definitely not much of all that's there.
Looks great! I like how they get crystal malt flavours without actually using crystal malts. I managed to get a pretty similar profile using Wyeast 1335.
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Enjoying a bottle of Samuel Smith India Ale, 5% ABV. implies this is the 1896 recipe done at the Tadcaster Brewery using Yorkshire Squares. I like it, pretty balanced, estery, and a good beer I could drink pints of.
Shenanigans
Well-Known Member
Funny, I just ordered a pack of WY1469 West Yorkshire Ale to brew a Timothy Taylor Landlord-like beer.
I was wondering what else I could use it for and I'm not sure if it's true or not (just did a few quick searches) but Samuel Smith India Ale was one suggestion I found.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
WY1469 is quite versatile. I find it gets really aromatic at 22°C, so that is what I use for cloning Landlord, but at 20°C it works for most styles and at 16°C it stays nicely in the background and just enhances malt flavours.
Shenanigans
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the tips.
I was also thinking of trying it in an ESB with a similar grain bill to Fullers.
Approx 94% Fawcetts MO, 6% Medium Crystal (150 ECB) and a fist full of pale chocolate malt for some color.
Hop it up to about 40 IBU with some combination of EKG, Fuggles, Target, Challenger, Bramling Cross or Pilgrim
I usually brew 3 or 4 beers at a time but only have room in my Kegregator for 1 beer so I'll let it run at room temperature in the basement, which is a constant 19°C. So it will probably reach 21 or 22°C in the fermentor.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a great plan. If you have some Styrian Goldings, that works perfectly with Wyeast 1469, just like it's used in the Landlord. EKG gives aromas that are similar to those from the yeast, so it can be one-dimensional. But if you make a mixture you should be fine. Temps also sound fine for this yeast. For an ESB you can go with a lower pitching rate to really boost flavour.
Have a look at Ron's blog. He goes into much detail there, you should be able to find it quickly.
The main thing that he mentions is that it needs to be not completely refined sugar to start with. Rohrohrzucker from Alnatura fits the description perfectly and I've used it successfully many times, for the Germans.
It looks like the main source of colour is indeed the refinery grade of the sugar and not caramelization. But nevertheless, some caramelization takes place, and the type of caramelisation and maillard reaction is depending on the little "impurities" that partially refined sugar brings to the table. Seems to be important that it's based on sugar cane, not beet sugar.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned here yet, they use acid to invert the sugar, and then they neutralise it. Cheap way is using a bit of baking soda. I've made tests and it changes the flavour when added to the hot invert sugar. It is a bit like a different type of maillard reaction takes place instantly once the ph is neutral again.
But be careful! It foams over really easily when baking soda is added to the hot invert!!!
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Colindo
Well-Known Member
Nope, I looked before and while I find everything you state about which sugar was used, he never implied that no caramelisation takes place. That would be physically impossible with the fructose in there, hence my statement.
The analyses from back then point towards a content around 4% of "non-sugar matter" which matches with Rohrohrzucker, Demerara and all the other golden types of sugars. Turbinado is quite a different thing and I recently had a beer from someone who tried making Invert no 3 by using dark muscovado and a long boil and it really tasted off.
I remember when you wrote that and I definitely want to try that next time when I make the sugar. It is hinted at in the 1896 paper that this could have been the case there too.
I think I got you partially wrong. He didn't claim that no caramelization takes place, but he said that the source of colour is molasses or unrefined sugar and not the caramelization. I'm not sure if he wrote it here in the forum or on his blog.
Regarding the invert no. 3 beer, how strong was it and how long was the maturation time? In my experience, these beers take a long time to mature from not so nice to pure pleasantness.
I've made a tropical stout once with non inverted completely unrefined brown sugar at a rate of 20% of the grist and after half a year it turned into a rummy coconut goodness. Before, it was just not nice at all.
Regarding the invert no. 3 beer, how strong was it and how long was the maturation time? In my experience, these beers take a long time to mature from not so nice to pure pleasantness.
I've made a tropical stout once with non inverted completely unrefined brown sugar at a rate of 20% of the grist and after half a year it turned into a rummy coconut goodness. Before, it was just not nice at all.
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Colindo
Well-Known Member
The first bottle was young, the second got four months. The flavour did not change at all in that time and had some extreme sweetness and at the same time burnt molasses flavour. I can imagine it is much better without an additional boil, since then it is just the molasses content that gives flavour.
By the way, demerara-based invert tastes great from the start. I'd say that is what was used in the Dark Milds of the 60s. And then the source of the colour would be the caramelisation of fructose. I would also imagine Ron did not know that fructose caramelises at 110°C. This is mentioned in no discussions of invert sugar that I have read so far.
By the way, demerara-based invert tastes great from the start. I'd say that is what was used in the Dark Milds of the 60s. And then the source of the colour would be the caramelisation of fructose. I would also imagine Ron did not know that fructose caramelises at 110°C. This is mentioned in no discussions of invert sugar that I have read so far.
When in solution, it does not caramelise instantly. It is a slowly ongoing process. I kept track of temperature and even after an hour above 110 c, my thinner inverts have changed colours just ever so slightly.
Regarding your beer, I think he just managed to scorch it. Invert no3 shouldn't taste burnt at all.
The information about the colour came basically from the manufacturer, so there's pretty much no doubt that the major colour contribution is indeed molasses or using completely unrefined sugar from the start. Doesn't mean that there aren't further things happening during the process but for UK invert, the colour comes from the ingredients, not from the heating.
For Belgian candi syrups it's a different story. Maybe that's what caused so much confusion within the homebrewers.
Regarding your beer, I think he just managed to scorch it. Invert no3 shouldn't taste burnt at all.
The information about the colour came basically from the manufacturer, so there's pretty much no doubt that the major colour contribution is indeed molasses or using completely unrefined sugar from the start. Doesn't mean that there aren't further things happening during the process but for UK invert, the colour comes from the ingredients, not from the heating.
For Belgian candi syrups it's a different story. Maybe that's what caused so much confusion within the homebrewers.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
Why then would the "official" manual for making invert, that Ron kept referring to in his blog post, from unholymess.com, give times for the colour? The mixing with molasses was a second method for quicker results.
My own process with demerara showed a significant dependency on the amount of water that was still in solution. If all water was evaporated, I got 400 EBC in 4h (115°C). With water in there, the darkening was a lot slower.
Again, I'm not saying there is only one way. But I'm saying that both methods exist and have been used in the past. Stating that only molasses is the way to go forward is in my opinion completely false.
Regarding the sugar from that other brewer it is not possible for me to know if he burnt it actively or not. But I know dark sugars that taste like that from the start, and I would not use those.
My own process with demerara showed a significant dependency on the amount of water that was still in solution. If all water was evaporated, I got 400 EBC in 4h (115°C). With water in there, the darkening was a lot slower.
Again, I'm not saying there is only one way. But I'm saying that both methods exist and have been used in the past. Stating that only molasses is the way to go forward is in my opinion completely false.
Regarding the sugar from that other brewer it is not possible for me to know if he burnt it actively or not. But I know dark sugars that taste like that from the start, and I would not use those.
So I'll pitch in since I've gone down this rabbit hole as well and just started another thread specifically to discuss this issue.
There are three variable in play here that seem to be confusing most folks (myself included). I'll use invert #3 because that's what I seem to use the most
So it seems there's something of a fractal choice here. Between the two different methods, multiple choices for starting sugar, and multiple grades and colors of invert there is a vast spectrum of possible outcomes from making this stuff.
Not to add even more confusion, but as someone above posted Regus in the UK seems to make invert by taking a clear neutral cane invert and just adding different proportions of molasses to it to get the color they want. So who knows how close that is in flavor to "traditional" invert as described above.
On the two cooking methods, the heat to 300F removes most of the water and takes the water content down to 3%. It is still technically a syrup but it cannot be poured without reheating to about 200F. It also does not produce much darkening at all. The "hold at 240F" method seems to produce much darker colored syrup and holds the water content at ~20% meaning that the resulting syrup is much easier to work with. The "hold at 240F" syrup has a slightly lower ppg than the heat to 300F. So pound for pound it is not the same amount of sugar but the difference is pretty small.
I hope everyone's head is spinning now. Cheers
Edit: as noted below I missed the fact that flavor can also be affected by neutralizing the acid after inversion is complete. This would enhance maillard production since acidic environments inhibit maillard products (think lime juice on avocados). I believe Ron Pattinson recommends calcium carbonate (chalk) which is not soluble, so any unused would just precipitate out. A small amount of baking soda also seems to work but as noted by Miraculix can cause severe foaming and it sounds like its quite easy to overdo it with baking soda
2nd Edit: If adding molasses to clear neutral invert the quality and character of the molasses seems to be vitally important as well. Look for licorice flavors and no burnt, harsh, or unpleasant flavors
3rd Edit: Corrected to remove references to Golden Syrup and replace with "Neutral invert"
There are three variable in play here that seem to be confusing most folks (myself included). I'll use invert #3 because that's what I seem to use the most
- The inversion process - this is changing the molecular form of the sugar from sucrose to a mixture of glucose and fructose. It has nothing at all to do with color and little to do with flavor. The process is very simple, heat a sugar solution to 236F in the presence of an acid and viola! Invert sugar
- The color - This can be influenced by BOTH caramelization/maillard products from heating the solution AND the molasses content of the starting sugar. I'm beginning to adopt the opinion that the starting sugar/molasses content has much greater influence than cooking
- As for the caramelization/maillard products there are two different methods out there for achieving this. One is to heat the solution to ~300F for invert #3, the other is to hold the solution at 240F for 3.5 hours for invert #3. More on these in a minute
- Flavor - This is the most complex and seems to be influenced by: the type of starting sugar, the quality of starting sugar, the molasses and impurity content of the starting sugar, and the regional variation in the starting sugar. To make it incredibly more complex, for each variation of starting sugar heating it seems to affect the flavor in slightly different ways (from what I've read, no direct experience). The degree of flavor differences between all these options in unknown and untested as far as I can find. They may be insignificant meaning that all of these choices amount to nothing but color.
So it seems there's something of a fractal choice here. Between the two different methods, multiple choices for starting sugar, and multiple grades and colors of invert there is a vast spectrum of possible outcomes from making this stuff.
Not to add even more confusion, but as someone above posted Regus in the UK seems to make invert by taking a clear neutral cane invert and just adding different proportions of molasses to it to get the color they want. So who knows how close that is in flavor to "traditional" invert as described above.
On the two cooking methods, the heat to 300F removes most of the water and takes the water content down to 3%. It is still technically a syrup but it cannot be poured without reheating to about 200F. It also does not produce much darkening at all. The "hold at 240F" method seems to produce much darker colored syrup and holds the water content at ~20% meaning that the resulting syrup is much easier to work with. The "hold at 240F" syrup has a slightly lower ppg than the heat to 300F. So pound for pound it is not the same amount of sugar but the difference is pretty small.
I hope everyone's head is spinning now. Cheers
Edit: as noted below I missed the fact that flavor can also be affected by neutralizing the acid after inversion is complete. This would enhance maillard production since acidic environments inhibit maillard products (think lime juice on avocados). I believe Ron Pattinson recommends calcium carbonate (chalk) which is not soluble, so any unused would just precipitate out. A small amount of baking soda also seems to work but as noted by Miraculix can cause severe foaming and it sounds like its quite easy to overdo it with baking soda
2nd Edit: If adding molasses to clear neutral invert the quality and character of the molasses seems to be vitally important as well. Look for licorice flavors and no burnt, harsh, or unpleasant flavors
3rd Edit: Corrected to remove references to Golden Syrup and replace with "Neutral invert"
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You didn't include the extra factor of neutralizing the acid which gets you more Maillard than just caramelization.
I'm in the middle of an experiment on that right now and will post results later today.
Thanks, fixed in an edit above
Colindo
Well-Known Member
A quick google search says that unrefined cane sugar containes 1.5-6% non-sucrose compound including amino acids.
Here's a link showing that sugar cane juice contains 23 different amino acids. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jsfa.2740160502
This sounds like Maillard products are definitely possible with unrefined sugars
I am making parallel batches of invert sugar, one with cane sugar, one with real turbinado cane sugar (molasses left in all along, not added back in).
I brought them up to 235F on the stovetop, then divided them (one neutralized with baking soda, one not) and poured them into corning dishes to put them into a 245F oven.
No added amino acids.
Then I am going to bake them all morning to compare the color and flavor differences at various times.
The foamy ones in back are the neutralized ones. The turbinado already has a nice head start on color.
Following with interest! please describe any flavor differences as best you can!
The one on the right hand side looks like what I got when I use only the rohrohzucker I've linked to above, which is basically turbinado. Works pretty well as is!
Btw. I don't remember reading that ragus uses golden syrup as a base for their sugar. To my knowledge they use turbinado, invertr it and than add molasses according to desired colour. As far as I remember, that should have been the traditional British approach for brewers inverts as well.
I think nobody said that that's the only way possible, but that it's the more traditional British way afaik.
I thought I read that last night on the UK brewing forum from a guy named PeeBee who had done a ton of research on it... I could be confusing that though I'll see if I can find it again
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/brewers-invert-sugar-the-painless-way.101677/
Here it is, and from this forum post he links to this and refers to it as a method "not dissimilar to that used by Regus"
https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83681&start=90#p866417
BASE SUGAR
I used Billington's "Golden Castor Sugar" and/or "Dextrose" (aka. glucose or "corn sugar"). I used all dextrose as base or 20% of total (like Ragus) ... it ferments easier and quicker but may have unknown implications?
You could use ordinary granulated white sugar, or, if you must, even baker's clear invert syrup, or make your own neutral invert syrup base (see "Eric's" post above). Don't use Golden Syrup, it's quite strongly caramelised.
This "base" is only fermentables, we get on to flavours next (the key was subtle use of flavoured sugars)."
He actually says NOT to use Golden Syrup because it's strongly caramelized, so thanks for that!
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30 and 90 minute update.
Top to bottom cane, neutralized cane, turbinado, neutralized turbinado.
Top to bottom cane, neutralized cane, turbinado, neutralized turbinado.
The difference between neutralized and non-neutralized turbinado is very different from the two cane sugars.
Just for terminology's sake, cane sugar just means sugar from cane - turbinado, muscavado, refined table sure (U.S.), etc are all cane sugars. So can you be a bit more specific on the lighter colored cane sugar you're using?
Assuming the lighter color is from refined white cane sugar, that result is consistent with the lack of amino acids in the refined sugar not undergoing Maillard reactions.
Thanks! That matches my experiences.
3 hour update. All four got darker. No huge difference between the simple cane sugar samples. The neutralized turbinado is definitely the darkest and has the most complex flavor (which I am not good at describing).
The top left is a smaller pan and thus deeper liquid so appears darker than it is. The top right is the neutralized turbinado.
The top left is a smaller pan and thus deeper liquid so appears darker than it is. The top right is the neutralized turbinado.
So I'm going to take an educated guess here:
The neutralized turbinado sugar is the darkest because it has undergone Maillard processes. Maillard reactions happen more readily in a higher pH. So the additional darkness contribution is from Maillard products.
The non-neutralized and neutralized refined sugar are almost the same. So if we assume that is because they are not undergoing Maillard reactions due to the lack of amino acids present in the base sugar, that means the darkening of the refined cane sugar is entirely due to caramelization.
That means that both caramelization and Maillard reactions are occurring together in the neutralized turbinado sugar. This means you need both unrefined sugar AND the neutralization step to get significant Maillard reactions.
Thanks again, that's also what I've experienced regarding the taste. I'd describe the dark one a bit like plummy tobacco thing, if that makes sense. But really hard to describe, I agree.
Yes, that's what I said from the beginning.....
...Ok I stop now with the "I told you so!" Bs
. Sorry...I wouldn't say that maillard does not happen with the lighter sugar. I think it wasn't fully pure if you have a look at the pic. It just seems to happen to a much lesser degree.
Sorry I missed that post!Yes, that's what I said from the beginning.....
...Ok I stop now with the "I told you so!" Bs
I wouldn't say that maillard does not happen with the lighter sugar. I think it wasn't fully pure of you have a look at the pic. It just seems to happen to a much lesser degree.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
Thanks guys, I learned a lot here. Also I mixed up Turbinado and Muscovado in some of my earlier posts. So what I have been using so far was Turbinado (demerare, Rohrohrzucker), but not neutralised. Nice to know that there is more to explore for future flavour impression.
In case anyone cares, I recently tried Leffe Brune from tap in Germany and it tasted exactly like my 400 EBC invert sugar made from non-neutralised turbinado. And I mean EXACTLY! Always thought that Belgian syrups are different because they are inverted using alcaline additions, so there should be even more Maillard. But maybe not for Leffe.
PS: I'm currently going through the patens of the Easticks brothers that were mentioned on the Ragus pages posted by PeeBee in the other forums. Maybe I'll find some primary source information there.
In case anyone cares, I recently tried Leffe Brune from tap in Germany and it tasted exactly like my 400 EBC invert sugar made from non-neutralised turbinado. And I mean EXACTLY! Always thought that Belgian syrups are different because they are inverted using alcaline additions, so there should be even more Maillard. But maybe not for Leffe.
PS: I'm currently going through the patens of the Easticks brothers that were mentioned on the Ragus pages posted by PeeBee in the other forums. Maybe I'll find some primary source information there.
4.5 hour update. My kitchen has a wonderful treacle aroma. I have never gone this far on stovetop cooking, so one main takeaway is that the oven method is much easier. Given the climate crisis and energy shortage I couldn’t justify doing this again though. Starting with dark sugar and cooking for 90 minutes will be the most I ever do. Mixing with molasses would definitely be easier and faster. But the proof will be in the dark mild.
Does the darkest one taste burnt at all?
That is what I aslso wanted to ask. I managed to get to this stage once as well and mine tasted acrid and I had to throw some of it away. Not all glasses were heated equally in the oven, so it was only 20% of the batch or something like that, fortunately.
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