English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[cire]

@cire You link says they start at a pH between five and six, invert at pH=1.6 and then "neutralise it". No specifics given there. But I did learn that Ragus is 'sugar' spelled backwards. Never noticed.
Also thanks for your recipe, sounds properly systematic. I observed the same effects when I did my sugars.

Sorry, yes, your observation is correct, but when seeing pH 5, I assumed it was the original text, but is not.

Can I suggest that should you neutralize your invert to pH 7 or higher, limit its shelf life to less than Ragus suggest and recognize the potential impact on copper finings effectiveness if added in large quantity to a boil.

How did this particular invert sugar contribute to the deaths of the heavy drinkers?

The sulfuric acid used for inversion contained arsenic and the residue got into the beer. Several of the deaths were traced back to drinking beer from one particular brewery.

It's getting very difficult to find much accurate history of Britain's activities, past and present in current internet offerings, but maybe that is true of other places too. However, there is a wiki page on this matter with potentially more inaccuracies than truths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1900_English_beer_poisoning
A worker at the same sugar works who stirred the sugar syrup from a platform above the boiler, fell into the vessel on another occasion.

Beer was blamed for many problems in the civilized world during this period. Not just the temperance movement put the cause to excessive drinking, the law might also approve such a cause to resolve an otherwise uncomfortable problem.

 

[cire]

But... if many of the yeasts are very similar... then it would depend on how you ferment. Not on which yeast strain you use.

Temperature can and does make a big difference to the finished beer, but some yeasts produce phenolic characters in the beers they make. My last but one brew was done with a yeast from Harvey's in Lewes, Sussex, and it produces a distinct snatch that their beers are renowned for. A higher temperature will likely increase the phenols, but a non-phenolic yeast will, when used at higher temperature, usually produce higher alcohols without a phenolic snatch.

Yeasts may be similar in characteristics observed, but are not not the same in many different ways as found in the finished article. I use only British sourced yeasts, so maybe US originating yeasts may be different.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Not to add even more confusion, but as someone above posted Regus in the UK seems to make invert

Please can you stop abusing one of the great company names? It's not Regus (which is an serviced office company, like WeWork I guess), but Ragus. As in...well, just try writing backwards (or "inverting" you might call it) the word "Ragus"....

How did this particular invert sugar contribute to the deaths of the heavy drinkers?

Nothing to do with the sugar as such, it was contaminated with arsenic from the sulphuric acid that was used for inversion. My speculation is that it is the origin of Manchester's preference for pale beer as typified by Boddies, they were wanting to emphasise how "pure" it was.

You misunderstood my statement. I did not say all british yeasts are POF- and cannot produce phenolics.

I said phenolic flavors in british style beer is a flaw whereas it is not in many (most?) Belgian styles. Sorry I wasn't clear

Phenolics are present in some of the greatest beers of Britain, it's just not correct to say that they're a flaw.

They may not be at Belgian levels, "process" such as Yorkshire squares may help to suppress the natural tendency of British saison yeasts to produce phenolics, but they are present and enhance the "Britishness" of the beers that use those yeasts.

 

[ba-brewer]

such as Yorkshire squares may help to suppress the natural tendency of British saison yeasts to produce phenolics,

This always puzzles me as a starter of phenolic yeast on a stir plate still smells phenolic.

 

[DBhomebrew]

This always puzzles me as a starter of phenolic yeast on a stir plate still smells phenolic.

Maybe 'saccharomyces' (Shaken-Not-Stirred) isn't far off in his argument that E flasks aren't great for aeration?

 

[ba-brewer]

I use a cylindrical beaker with a loose cover of foil.

 

[TheMadKing]

Please can you stop abusing one of the great company names? It's not Regus (which is an serviced office company, like WeWork I guess), but Ragus. As in...well, just try writing backwards (or "inverting" you might call it) the word "Ragus"....


Nothing to do with the sugar as such, it was contaminated with arsenic from the sulphuric acid that was used for inversion. My speculation is that it is the origin of Manchester's preference for pale beer as typified by Boddies, they were wanting to emphasise how "pure" it was.

Phenolics are present in some of the greatest beers of Britain, it's just not correct to say that they're a flaw.

They may not be at Belgian levels, "process" such as Yorkshire squares may help to suppress the natural tendency of British saison yeasts to produce phenolics, but they are present and enhance the "Britishness" of the beers that use those yeasts.

Thanks for the correction on both accounts!

I've been to the UK on 6 occasions and never had a beer that had that kind of character. I would love to find one next time

 

[Miraculix]

.

 

[Colindo]

@cire Just watched the Ragus video. They adjust to a pH of 6.0-6.5, so very slightly acidic.
They also mature the syrup for some time after the filtering. Has anyone ever done that?

 

[cire]

@cire Just watched the Ragus video. They adjust to a pH of 6.0-6.5, so very slightly acidic.
They also mature the syrup for some time after the filtering. Has anyone ever done that?

Thank you. Can you give that link as I can't presently locate that video.

 

[Miraculix]

@cire Just watched the Ragus video. They adjust to a pH of 6.0-6.5, so very slightly acidic.
They also mature the syrup for some time after the filtering. Has anyone ever done that?

My currently used invert is aged for over a year because I've made a bulk batch in the oven at that time. Cannot say if it changed or not. I think not.

 

[Colindo]

Thank you. Can you give that link as I can't presently locate that video.

You gave it to me earlier Golden syrup - Pure genius in the making - Ragus

My currently used invert is aged for over a year because I've made a bulk batch in the oven at that time. Cannot say if it changed or not. I think not.

Yeah, mine is also old now. Wouldn't say it has changed either.

 

[Brewskey]

@cire Just watched the Ragus video. They adjust to a pH of 6.0-6.5, so very slightly acidic.
They also mature the syrup for some time after the filtering. Has anyone ever done that?

My currently used invert is aged for over a year because I've made a bulk batch in the oven at that time. Cannot say if it changed or not. I think not.

I also have 1 year old invert with very little if any change.

 

[cire]

You gave it to me earlier Golden syrup - Pure genius in the making - Ragus

Yes, but that is the one for Golden Syrup, not Brewer's Invert Sugar. There was a similar video for Brewer's Invert Blocks, where the sugar was inverted in the same pans, but with various extracts from cane sugar added to produce the range of grades, which was as I recall, neutralized to pH 5. The syrup was then poured into lined, rectangular, cardboard containers, and seeded with corn sugar (glucose/dextrose) to cause the syrup to crystalize and solidify.

I believe that would be the foreign matter that PeeBee referred to, as it came from maize. All other matter was cane sugar with water and hydrochloric acid. Later the acid was mostly neutralized from pH 1.6 to 5.0 by sodium (bi)carbonate to form common salt.

Golden Syrup is made for bakers, Brewer's Invert for brewers..

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Right, but doing so with turbinado starts at ~#3. If you're looking for #2 let alone #1, turbinado starts too dark.

It doesn't bother me at all. If the recipe calls for #1 or #2 I do exactly as you say, but accept that my beer might be a bit darker than intended.

So would you just recommend plain, white cane sugar as a starting point to give 1-2- or -3?

 

[Miraculix]

So would you just recommend plain, white cane sugar as a starting point to give 1-2- or -3?

I would say that it depends on the turbinado. Mine starts at no 1. A colour like golden syrup, just a bit lighter

 

[Brewskey]

So would you just recommend plain, white cane sugar as a starting point to give 1-2- or -3?

You're in the US right? I've had good luck using raw cane sugar for a golden #1-ish type syrup and demerara sugar for the darker stuff.

I posted this a while back: left made with raw cane sugar, right with demerara.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

You're in the US right? I've had good luck using raw cane sugar for a golden #1-ish type syrup and demerara sugar for the darker stuff.

I posted this a while back: left made with raw cane sugar, right with demerara.
View attachment 834531

Awesome, thanks!

 

[Miraculix]

You're in the US right? I've had good luck using raw cane sugar for a golden #1-ish type syrup and demerara sugar for the darker stuff.

I posted this a while back: left made with raw cane sugar, right with demerara.
View attachment 834531

That first one looks like the stuff I use as a base as well. Blending it with demarara or dark muscuvado is also what I am doing for darker syrups. Or for really dark invert, I use the dark sugar on it's own. I usually only use this dark sugar only syrup for dark beers and beers that need to age some time anyway.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

That first one looks like the stuff I use as a base as well. Blending it with demarara or dark muscuvado is also what I am doing for darker syrups. Or for really dark invert, I use the dark sugar on it's own. I usually only use this dark sugar only syrup for dark beers and beers that need to age some time anyway.

How do you guys establish the different grades - is it a color standard, you can visually compare? I ask because years ago I made some, shooting for No. 2, but it sure seemed dark. I'd love to have 3 good sugars to work with.

 

[Miraculix]

How do you guys establish the different grades - is it a color standard, you can visually compare? I ask because years ago I made some, shooting for No. 2, but it sure seemed dark. I'd love to have 3 good sugars to work with.

I am personally disliking the approach of looking at brewing ingredients like a scientist in a lab. I for myself look at the ingredients more from a chefs perspective. I experiment with the ingredients and the process until I like the result. Until it fits what I had in mind, what I was aiming for. A good start would be 70/30 to 80/20 golden sugar to darkest sugar ratio. This is what gets the best result for me for quicker turnaround beers like bitters. One or two months aging type of beers. I suggest starting with that and then try it and then evaluate if you would like to have it darker or lighter and then adjust accordingly. Please note that this is my personal approach. Others obviously have completely different approaches and that is fine too.

 

[Miraculix]

To give amore complete picture, I basically have three grades. The one above, which is kind of in the middle so probably my personal number two. Number 1, the lightest would be the golden sugar only (I do not use this one that much tbh) and the darkest, my personal number three consists of only the dark sugar inverted. The last one is usually used for my stronger beers which are intended to be aged for a longer time.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I am personally disliking the approach of looking at brewing ingredients like a scientist in a lab. I for myself look at the ingredients more from a chefs perspective. I experiment with the ingredients and the process until I like the result. Until it fits what I had in mind, what I was aiming for. A good start would be 70/30 to 80/20 golden sugar to darkest sugar ratio. This is what gets the best result for me for quicker turnaround beers like bitters. One or two months aging type of beers. I suggest starting with that and then try it and then evaluate if you would like to have it darker or lighter and then adjust accordingly. Please note that this is my personal approach. Others obviously have completely different approaches and that is fine too.

Former (French) chef and I really appreciate your comment. And a great reminder to me, too, since I am always overthinking things and could stand to lighten up as you're describing.

Sorry for misunderstanding - when you say 70/30 or 80/20, do you mean something like blending white cane/demerara, then inverting? Or you're blending the two invert sugars (something like a Lyle's style syrup with a darker invert), to get the blend?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

To give amore complete picture, I basically have three grades. The one above, which is kind of in the middle so probably my personal number two. Number 1, the lightest would be the golden sugar only (I do not use this one that much tbh) and the darkest, my personal number three consists of only the dark sugar inverted. The last one is usually used for my stronger beers which are intended to be aged for a longer time.

Ah, sorry, crossed in the mail. Many thanks.

 

[Miraculix]

Former (French) chef and I really appreciate your comment. And a great reminder to me, too, since I am always overthinking things and could stand to lighten up as you're describing.

Sorry for misunderstanding - when you say 70/30 or 80/20, do you mean something like blending white cane/demerara, then inverting? Or you're blending the two invert sugars (something like a Lyle's style syrup with a darker invert), to get the blend?

Great, then you know more about cooking than me and you probably completely get what I mean!

I never use refined sugar in neither my cooking nor my brewing. For me, refined table sugar is inferior to all the great sugars that are out there. Stripped off it's character one could say. I don't even use it for carbonation. It is always the golden one from alnatura which I linked to above, or at least similar quality darker ones that I use. The golden one from Alnatura has a french text on it as well, if I remember correctly, so it probably is sold in France as well. Also for my inverts, I would never use refined table sugar. But again, that is only my personal approach.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Great, then you know more about cooking than me and you probably completely get what I mean!

I never use refined sugar in neither my cooking nor my brewing. For me, refined table sugar is inferior to all the great sugars that are out there. Stripped off it's character one could say. I don't even use it for carbonation. It is always the golden one from alnatura which I linked to above, or at least similar quality darker ones that I use. The golden one from Alnatura has a french text on it as well, if I remember correctly, so it probably is sold in France as well. Also for my inverts, I would never use refined table sugar. But again, that is only my personal approach.

Oh, I don't know about that, not from what I've seen! Thanks for the links too and I'll do some digging.

 

[Colindo]

How do you guys establish the different grades - is it a color standard, you can visually compare? I ask because years ago I made some, shooting for No. 2, but it sure seemed dark. I'd love to have 3 good sugars to work with.

I like to compare it to an extract made from a malt with the same EBC. But you must make sure that the thickness of the liquid is equal in all cases in order to make sure you are comparing correctly.

But as @Miraculix said, the best way is to taste it and adjust according to what you expect as a chef.

 

[Colindo]

To get back to brewing Englisch Ales a bit (I know I was part of the distraction), here is a picture of a clone of Theakston Old Peculier, as drawn from a hand pump with sparkler:


Done with 5% Crystal 150 and 4% Roasted barley. Together with a co-pitch of S-04 and WLP500. The latter to bring out the fruit flavours, which worked really nicely. A good example of how Belgian yeasts can be used for British beers. Fermentation was at a constant 20°C.

 

[Brewskey]

To get back to brewing Englisch Ales a bit (I know I was part of the distraction), here is a picture of a clone of Theakston Old Peculier, as drawn from a hand pump with sparkler:
View attachment 834547

Done with 5% Crystal 150 and 4% Roasted barley. Together with a co-pitch of S-04 and WLP500. The latter to bring out the fruit flavours, which worked really nicely. A good example of how Belgian yeasts can be used for British beers. Fermentation was at a constant 20°C.

That looks nice. How would you compare it to the real thing?

 

[Colindo]

It has been 17 months since I tried the real thing, but I'd say if WLP500 would clear a bit better, it would certainly be spot on.

My friend who has been brewing the beer after my recipe and who tasted the original a few months ago says it is spot on already.

 

[Brewskey]

It has been 17 months since I tried the real thing, but I'd say if WLP500 would clear a bit better, it would certainly be spot on.

My friend who has been brewing the beer after my recipe and who tasted the original a few months ago says it is spot on already.

Is the recipe on your YouTube channel? I may try it out.

Edit: I found it.

 

[Colindo]

Yes, apart from the yeast choice, it's on there...

 

[DuncB]

Regarding maturing invert sugar. Tins of Golden syrup left for a long time certainly darken, this may well be due to evaporation as crystallization can occur, I've never tried to dilute and reheat to see if the colour changes back. I prefer the more concentrated golden syrup in porridge etc.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

To get back to brewing Englisch Ales a bit (I know I was part of the distraction), here is a picture of a clone of Theakston Old Peculier, as drawn from a hand pump with sparkler:
View attachment 834547

Done with 5% Crystal 150 and 4% Roasted barley. Together with a co-pitch of S-04 and WLP500. The latter to bring out the fruit flavours, which worked really nicely. A good example of how Belgian yeasts can be used for British beers. Fermentation was at a constant 20°C.

Looks fantastic. Likely a dumb question, but I presume you also used Treacle?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Is the recipe on your YouTube channel? I may try it out.

Edit: I found it.

Sorry for the side-query, but Colindo, can you point me to your channel?

-and just noticed you and Miraculix are both German. Very pleased to know that! - I am part of a wonderful German baking community, Angebacken - Die Brot Community. I bake several loaves of traditional German breads weekly, and in fact there's been community interest in my going on a sort of nano-neighborhood basis weekly. Just an assortment from last Christmas.

 

[Miraculix]

Sorry for the side-query, but Colindo, can you point me to your channel?

-and just noticed you and Miraculix are both German. Very pleased to know that! - I am part of a wonderful German baking community, Angebacken - Die Brot Community. I bake several loaves of traditional German breads weekly, and in fact there's been community interest in my going on a sort of nano-neighborhood basis weekly. Just an assortment from last Christmas.

View attachment 834555

If I'd be your neighbour the bread would spark my interest as well.

They look way better than my breads. I bake all my bread myself, started a sour dough years ago and keep on using that one. Just flour and water plus sometimes sun flower seeds. Spelt and rye in varying proportions.

But to be fair, I'm lazy so I optimised my baking routine just for time saving while keeping the taste as is. This involves baking inside of my mixing bowl, so no fancy shapes like you got there.

 

[Colindo]

Those breads look stunning! Very good job! I used to bake bread back when I was a student, but nowadays I just buy it at the better bakeries.

Looks fantastic. Likely a dumb question, but I presume you also used Treacle?

I first found a recipe that used molasses, so I bought some of that in an organic store but it gave an incredibly strong liquorice flavour. I later found out that Theakston does all-grain nowadays, at least according to their website, so I adjusted Graham Wheeler's recipe a bit to the percentages I gave earlier and got to a very close flavour.

I bought Black Treacle in the UK in the meantime to be able to clone Fuller's Imperial Stout, which I loved back when they still produced it. It uses both Black Treacle and Ragus Invert No 3.

Sorry for the side-query, but Colindo, can you point me to your channel?

Sure, I'll link the second Theakston video below

 

[eshea3]

I am personally disliking the approach of looking at brewing ingredients like a scientist in a lab. I for myself look at the ingredients more from a chefs perspective. I experiment with the ingredients and the process until I like the result. Until it fits what I had in mind, what I was aiming for. A good start would be 70/30 to 80/20 golden sugar to darkest sugar ratio. This is what gets the best result for me for quicker turnaround beers like bitters. One or two months aging type of beers. I suggest starting with that and then try it and then evaluate if you would like to have it darker or lighter and then adjust accordingly. Please note that this is my personal approach. Others obviously have completely different approaches and that is fine too.

There are people far more informed than me on this subject, but it occurs that this approach might be consistent with how brewing was done historically in Britain. Brewers could have had proprietary sugar products. They also would have used whatever was on hand / available. Thoughts?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

If I'd be your neighbour the bread would spark my interest as well.

They look way better than my breads. I bake all my bread myself, started a sour dough years ago and keep on using that one. Just flour and water plus sometimes sun flower seeds. Spelt and rye in varying proportions.

But to be fair, I'm lazy so I optimised my baking routine just for time saving while keeping the taste as is. This involves baking inside of my mixing bowl, so no fancy shapes like you got there.

That's pretty slick! I have a mill at home built like a tank and outside of some "T 1050" and "T 1150" I buy from a good supplier, I mill my own rye, whole hard red winter and spring wheats, spelt, emmer, kamut and einkorn. I make several different grades of "schrot" (not true schrot, because they're just coarsely milled and not chopped) in all these as well. The workhorse sourdough I use is a TA 200 Roggen, though sometimes I also use Hefewasser and Lievito Madre.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Those breads look stunning! Very good job! I used to bake bread back when I was a student, but nowadays I just buy it at the better bakeries.


I first found a recipe that used molasses, so I bought some of that in an organic store but it gave an incredibly strong liquorice flavour. I later found out that Theakston does all-grain nowadays, at least according to their website, so I adjusted Graham Wheeler's recipe a bit to the percentages I gave earlier and got to a very close flavour.

I bought Black Treacle in the UK in the meantime to be able to clone Fuller's Imperial Stout, which I loved back when they still produced it. It uses both Black Treacle and Ragus Invert No 3.

Sure, I'll link the second Theakston video below

Fantastic, many thanks! Looking forward to viewing your channel.

By the way, just another quick aside, but it always astounds me the level of mastery you two and my German and Austrian friends have of English. I have been studying German daily now for a bit over a year but your ability to speak so completely fluently puts me to shame.

All my life I'd thought I was French-blooded - in fact it's what set me on my course as a young kid to become fluent in French, and begin training in classic French cooking. I am French, but a few years ago, I found out that in fact most of my line can be traced to Baden-Württemberg - centuries, in fact, unbroken, in the area surrounding Lörrach. My wife has her EU citizenship (Estonian) and it's our hope to spend considerable time there, and with the many friends I've made in the German and Austrian baking community.

At any rate, you've such a beautiful country. Here's an homage to your north, a Friesisches Weißbrot. The recipe comes from my friend Dr. Björn Hollensteiner, aka "Der Brotdoc." Wonderful book, Heimatbrote: Traditionsreiche Brote aus dem eigenen Ofen mit Sauerteig, Vorteig & Co.