English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Miraculix]

Source? My research so far has suggested that the combination of inversion and heating does indeed produce caramelisation. No maillard ist correct, since that needs proteins (amino acids). But caramelisation definitely takes place, since Fructose caramelises at 110°C and we create Fructose by the inversion.

If you look at the 1896 paper about invert sugar you'll find that they intensely filter the sugar before the process and during it. My understanding is that they are actually using white sugar for their process and it is only the boil time that creates the colour. Mixing with Molasses is done nowadays, by Ragus for example, but it does not need to mean it was always done like that.

If on the other hand you want a quick invert no 3 and have turbinado at hand, you do not need to bother with inverting first, since adding it at the last 10 min of the boil will cause inversion, since wort is a sour medium.

Have a look at Ron's blog. He goes into much detail there, you should be able to find it quickly.

The main thing that he mentions is that it needs to be not completely refined sugar to start with. Rohrohrzucker from Alnatura fits the description perfectly and I've used it successfully many times, for the Germans.

It looks like the main source of colour is indeed the refinery grade of the sugar and not caramelization. But nevertheless, some caramelization takes place, and the type of caramelisation and maillard reaction is depending on the little "impurities" that partially refined sugar brings to the table. Seems to be important that it's based on sugar cane, not beet sugar.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here yet, they use acid to invert the sugar, and then they neutralise it. Cheap way is using a bit of baking soda. I've made tests and it changes the flavour when added to the hot invert sugar. It is a bit like a different type of maillard reaction takes place instantly once the ph is neutral again.

But be careful! It foams over really easily when baking soda is added to the hot invert!!!

 

[Colindo]

Have a look at Ron's blog. He goes into much detail there, you should be able to find it quickly.

Nope, I looked before and while I find everything you state about which sugar was used, he never implied that no caramelisation takes place. That would be physically impossible with the fructose in there, hence my statement.

The analyses from back then point towards a content around 4% of "non-sugar matter" which matches with Rohrohrzucker, Demerara and all the other golden types of sugars. Turbinado is quite a different thing and I recently had a beer from someone who tried making Invert no 3 by using dark muscovado and a long boil and it really tasted off.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here yet, they use acid to invert the sugar, and then they neutralise it. Cheap way is using a bit of baking soda. I've made tests and it changes the flavour when added to the hot invert sugar. It is a bit like a different type of maillard reaction takes place instantly once the ph is neutral again.

I remember when you wrote that and I definitely want to try that next time when I make the sugar. It is hinted at in the 1896 paper that this could have been the case there too.

 

[Miraculix]

I think I got you partially wrong. He didn't claim that no caramelization takes place, but he said that the source of colour is molasses or unrefined sugar and not the caramelization. I'm not sure if he wrote it here in the forum or on his blog.

Regarding the invert no. 3 beer, how strong was it and how long was the maturation time? In my experience, these beers take a long time to mature from not so nice to pure pleasantness.

I've made a tropical stout once with non inverted completely unrefined brown sugar at a rate of 20% of the grist and after half a year it turned into a rummy coconut goodness. Before, it was just not nice at all.

 

[Colindo]

The first bottle was young, the second got four months. The flavour did not change at all in that time and had some extreme sweetness and at the same time burnt molasses flavour. I can imagine it is much better without an additional boil, since then it is just the molasses content that gives flavour.

By the way, demerara-based invert tastes great from the start. I'd say that is what was used in the Dark Milds of the 60s. And then the source of the colour would be the caramelisation of fructose. I would also imagine Ron did not know that fructose caramelises at 110°C. This is mentioned in no discussions of invert sugar that I have read so far.

 

[Miraculix]

When in solution, it does not caramelise instantly. It is a slowly ongoing process. I kept track of temperature and even after an hour above 110 c, my thinner inverts have changed colours just ever so slightly.

Regarding your beer, I think he just managed to scorch it. Invert no3 shouldn't taste burnt at all.

The information about the colour came basically from the manufacturer, so there's pretty much no doubt that the major colour contribution is indeed molasses or using completely unrefined sugar from the start. Doesn't mean that there aren't further things happening during the process but for UK invert, the colour comes from the ingredients, not from the heating.

For Belgian candi syrups it's a different story. Maybe that's what caused so much confusion within the homebrewers.

 

[Colindo]

Why then would the "official" manual for making invert, that Ron kept referring to in his blog post, from unholymess.com, give times for the colour? The mixing with molasses was a second method for quicker results.

My own process with demerara showed a significant dependency on the amount of water that was still in solution. If all water was evaporated, I got 400 EBC in 4h (115°C). With water in there, the darkening was a lot slower.

Again, I'm not saying there is only one way. But I'm saying that both methods exist and have been used in the past. Stating that only molasses is the way to go forward is in my opinion completely false.

Regarding the sugar from that other brewer it is not possible for me to know if he burnt it actively or not. But I know dark sugars that taste like that from the start, and I would not use those.

 

[TheMadKing]

So I'll pitch in since I've gone down this rabbit hole as well and just started another thread specifically to discuss this issue.

There are three variable in play here that seem to be confusing most folks (myself included). I'll use invert #3 because that's what I seem to use the most

• The inversion process - this is changing the molecular form of the sugar from sucrose to a mixture of glucose and fructose. It has nothing at all to do with color and little to do with flavor. The process is very simple, heat a sugar solution to 236F in the presence of an acid and viola! Invert sugar
• The color - This can be influenced by BOTH caramelization/maillard products from heating the solution AND the molasses content of the starting sugar. I'm beginning to adopt the opinion that the starting sugar/molasses content has much greater influence than cooking
  • As for the caramelization/maillard products there are two different methods out there for achieving this. One is to heat the solution to ~300F for invert #3, the other is to hold the solution at 240F for 3.5 hours for invert #3. More on these in a minute
• Flavor - This is the most complex and seems to be influenced by: the type of starting sugar, the quality of starting sugar, the molasses and impurity content of the starting sugar, and the regional variation in the starting sugar. To make it incredibly more complex, for each variation of starting sugar heating it seems to affect the flavor in slightly different ways (from what I've read, no direct experience). The degree of flavor differences between all these options in unknown and untested as far as I can find. They may be insignificant meaning that all of these choices amount to nothing but color.

Example - Invert #3 produced using the hold at 240F method from Turbinado sugar is different than a similar color of invert made from Muscavado sugar. These same two invert syrups would also have a different character if produced using the "heat to 300F" method and probably significantly different color.

So it seems there's something of a fractal choice here. Between the two different methods, multiple choices for starting sugar, and multiple grades and colors of invert there is a vast spectrum of possible outcomes from making this stuff.

Not to add even more confusion, but as someone above posted Regus in the UK seems to make invert by taking a clear neutral cane invert and just adding different proportions of molasses to it to get the color they want. So who knows how close that is in flavor to "traditional" invert as described above.

On the two cooking methods, the heat to 300F removes most of the water and takes the water content down to 3%. It is still technically a syrup but it cannot be poured without reheating to about 200F. It also does not produce much darkening at all. The "hold at 240F" method seems to produce much darker colored syrup and holds the water content at ~20% meaning that the resulting syrup is much easier to work with. The "hold at 240F" syrup has a slightly lower ppg than the heat to 300F. So pound for pound it is not the same amount of sugar but the difference is pretty small.

I hope everyone's head is spinning now. Cheers

Edit: as noted below I missed the fact that flavor can also be affected by neutralizing the acid after inversion is complete. This would enhance maillard production since acidic environments inhibit maillard products (think lime juice on avocados). I believe Ron Pattinson recommends calcium carbonate (chalk) which is not soluble, so any unused would just precipitate out. A small amount of baking soda also seems to work but as noted by Miraculix can cause severe foaming and it sounds like its quite easy to overdo it with baking soda

2nd Edit: If adding molasses to clear neutral invert the quality and character of the molasses seems to be vitally important as well. Look for licorice flavors and no burnt, harsh, or unpleasant flavors

3rd Edit: Corrected to remove references to Golden Syrup and replace with "Neutral invert"

 

[Witherby]

So I'll pitch in since I've gone down this rabbit hole as well and just started another thread specifically to discuss this issue.

There are three variable in play here that seem to be confusing most folks (myself included). I'll use invert #3 because that's what I seem to use the most

• The inversion process - very simple, heat a sugar solution to 236F in the presence of an acid and viola! Invert sugar
• The color - This can be influenced by BOTH caramelization/maillard products from heating the solution AND the molasses content of the starting sugar. I'm beginning to adopt the opinion that the starting sugar/molasses content has much greater influence than cooking
  • As for the caramelization/maillard products there are two different methods out there for achieving this. One is to heat the solution to ~300F for invert #3, the other is to hold the solution at 240F for 3.5 hours for invert #3. More on these in a minute
• Flavor - This is the most complex and seems to be influenced by: the type of starting sugar, the quality of starting sugar, the molasses and impurity content of the starting sugar, and the regional variation in the starting sugar. To make it incredibly more complex, for each variation of starting sugar heating it seems to affect the flavor in slightly different ways (from what I've read, no direct experience).

Example - Invert #3 produced using the hold at 240F method from Turbinado sugar is different than a similar color of invert made from Muscavado sugar. These same two invert syrups would also have a different character if produced using the "heat to 300F" method and probably significantly different color.

So it seems there's something of a fractal choice here. Between the two different methods, multiple choices for starting sugar, and multiple grades and colors of invert there is a vast spectrum of possible outcomes from making this stuff.

Not to add even more confusion, but as someone above posted Regus in the UK seems to make invert by taking Golden syrup and just adding different proportions of molasses to it to get the color they want. So who knows how close that is in flavor to "traditional" invert as described above.

On the two cooking methods, the heat to 300F removes most of the water and takes the water content down to 3%. It is still technically a syrup but it cannot be poured without reheating to about 200F. It also does not produce much darkening at all. The "hold at 240F" method seems to produce much darker colored syrup and holds the water content at ~20% meaning that the resulting syrup is much easier to work with. The "hold at 240F" syrup has a slightly lower ppg than the heat to 300F. So pound for pound it is not the same amount of sugar but the difference is pretty small.

I hope everyone's head is spinning now. Cheers

You didn't include the extra factor of neutralizing the acid which gets you more Maillard than just caramelization.

I'm in the middle of an experiment on that right now and will post results later today.

 

[TheMadKing]

You didn't include the extra factor of neutralizing the acid which gets you more Maillard than just caramelization.

I'm in the middle of an experiment on that right now and will post results later today.

Thanks, fixed in an edit above

 

[Colindo]

@Witherby Maillard reaction is only possible with amino acids present. Are you expecting to get those from the molasses? I know it has some proteins, but are they in amino acid form?

 

[TheMadKing]

@Witherby Maillard reaction is only possible with amino acids present. Are you expecting to get those from the molasses? I know it has some proteins, but are they in amino acid form?

A quick google search says that unrefined cane sugar containes 1.5-6% non-sucrose compound including amino acids.

Here's a link showing that sugar cane juice contains 23 different amino acids. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jsfa.2740160502

This sounds like Maillard products are definitely possible with unrefined sugars

 

[Witherby]

@Witherby Maillard reaction is only possible with amino acids present. Are you expecting to get those from the molasses? I know it has some proteins, but are they in amino acid form?

I am making parallel batches of invert sugar, one with cane sugar, one with real turbinado cane sugar (molasses left in all along, not added back in).

I brought them up to 235F on the stovetop, then divided them (one neutralized with baking soda, one not) and poured them into corning dishes to put them into a 245F oven.

No added amino acids.

Then I am going to bake them all morning to compare the color and flavor differences at various times.

The foamy ones in back are the neutralized ones. The turbinado already has a nice head start on color.

 

[TheMadKing]

I am making parallel batches of invert sugar, one with cane sugar, one with real turbinado cane sugar (molasses left in all along, not added back in).

I brought them up to 235F on the stovetop, then divided them (one neutralized with baking soda, one not) and poured them into corning dishes to put them into a 245F oven.

No added amino acids.

Then I am going to bake them all morning to compare the color and flavor differences at various times.

The foamy ones in back are the neutralized ones. The turbinado already has a nice head start on color.

View attachment 834357

Following with interest! please describe any flavor differences as best you can!

 

[Miraculix]

I am making parallel batches of invert sugar, one with cane sugar, one with real turbinado cane sugar (molasses left in all along, not added back in).

I brought them up to 235F on the stovetop, then divided them (one neutralized with baking soda, one not) and poured them into corning dishes to put them into a 245F oven.

No added amino acids.

Then I am going to bake them all morning to compare the color and flavor differences at various times.

The foamy ones in back are the neutralized ones. The turbinado already has a nice head start on color.

View attachment 834357

The one on the right hand side looks like what I got when I use only the rohrohzucker I've linked to above, which is basically turbinado. Works pretty well as is!

Btw. I don't remember reading that ragus uses golden syrup as a base for their sugar. To my knowledge they use turbinado, invertr it and than add molasses according to desired colour. As far as I remember, that should have been the traditional British approach for brewers inverts as well.

 

[Miraculix]

Why then would the "official" manual for making invert, that Ron kept referring to in his blog post, from unholymess.com, give times for the colour? The mixing with molasses was a second method for quicker results.

My own process with demerara showed a significant dependency on the amount of water that was still in solution. If all water was evaporated, I got 400 EBC in 4h (115°C). With water in there, the darkening was a lot slower.

Again, I'm not saying there is only one way. But I'm saying that both methods exist and have been used in the past. Stating that only molasses is the way to go forward is in my opinion completely false.

Regarding the sugar from that other brewer it is not possible for me to know if he burnt it actively or not. But I know dark sugars that taste like that from the start, and I would not use those.

I think nobody said that that's the only way possible, but that it's the more traditional British way afaik.

 

[TheMadKing]

The one on the right hand side looks like what I got when I use only the rohrohzucker I've linked to above, which is basically turbinado. Works pretty well as is!

Btw. I don't remember reading that ragus uses golden syrup as a base for their sugar. To my knowledge they use turbinado, invertr it and than add molasses according to desired colour. As far as I remember, that should have been the traditional British approach for brewers inverts as well.

I thought I read that last night on the UK brewing forum from a guy named PeeBee who had done a ton of research on it... I could be confusing that though I'll see if I can find it again

 

[TheMadKing]

Btw. I don't remember reading that ragus uses golden syrup as a base for their sugar. To my knowledge they use turbinado, invertr it and than add molasses according to desired colour. As far as I remember, that should have been the traditional British approach for brewers inverts as well.

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/brewers-invert-sugar-the-painless-way.101677/
Here it is, and from this forum post he links to this and refers to it as a method "not dissimilar to that used by Regus"

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83681&start=90#p866417
BASE SUGAR
I used Billington's "Golden Castor Sugar" and/or "Dextrose" (aka. glucose or "corn sugar"). I used all dextrose as base or 20% of total (like Ragus) ... it ferments easier and quicker but may have unknown implications?

You could use ordinary granulated white sugar, or, if you must, even baker's clear invert syrup, or make your own neutral invert syrup base (see "Eric's" post above). Don't use Golden Syrup, it's quite strongly caramelised.

This "base" is only fermentables, we get on to flavours next (the key was subtle use of flavoured sugars)."

He actually says NOT to use Golden Syrup because it's strongly caramelized, so thanks for that!

 

[Witherby]

30 and 90 minute update.
Top to bottom cane, neutralized cane, turbinado, neutralized turbinado.

 

[TheMadKing]

30 and 90 minute update.
Top to bottom cane, neutralized cane, turbinado, neutralized turbinado.
View attachment 834360

The difference between neutralized and non-neutralized turbinado is very different from the two cane sugars.

Just for terminology's sake, cane sugar just means sugar from cane - turbinado, muscavado, refined table sure (U.S.), etc are all cane sugars. So can you be a bit more specific on the lighter colored cane sugar you're using?

Assuming the lighter color is from refined white cane sugar, that result is consistent with the lack of amino acids in the refined sugar not undergoing Maillard reactions.

 

[Witherby]

The difference between neutralized and non-neutralized turbinado is very different from the two cane sugars.

Just for terminology's sake, cane sugar just means sugar from cane - turbinado, muscavado, refined table sure (U.S.), etc are all cane sugars. So can you be a bit more specific on the lighter colored cane sugar you're using?

Assuming the lighter color is from refined white cane sugar, that result is consistent with the lack of amino acids in the refined sugar not undergoing Maillard reactions.

 

[Miraculix]

30 and 90 minute update.
Top to bottom cane, neutralized cane, turbinado, neutralized turbinado.
View attachment 834360

Thanks! That matches my experiences.

 

[Witherby]

3 hour update. All four got darker. No huge difference between the simple cane sugar samples. The neutralized turbinado is definitely the darkest and has the most complex flavor (which I am not good at describing).

The top left is a smaller pan and thus deeper liquid so appears darker than it is. The top right is the neutralized turbinado.

 

[TheMadKing]

3 hour update. All four got darker. No huge difference between the simple cane sugar samples. The neutralized turbinado is definitely the darkest and has the most complex flavor (which I am not good at describing).
View attachment 834368View attachment 834369
The top left is a smaller pan and thus deeper liquid so appears darker than it is. The top right is the neutralized turbinado.

So I'm going to take an educated guess here:
The neutralized turbinado sugar is the darkest because it has undergone Maillard processes. Maillard reactions happen more readily in a higher pH. So the additional darkness contribution is from Maillard products.

The non-neutralized and neutralized refined sugar are almost the same. So if we assume that is because they are not undergoing Maillard reactions due to the lack of amino acids present in the base sugar, that means the darkening of the refined cane sugar is entirely due to caramelization.

That means that both caramelization and Maillard reactions are occurring together in the neutralized turbinado sugar. This means you need both unrefined sugar AND the neutralization step to get significant Maillard reactions.

 

[Miraculix]

3 hour update. All four got darker. No huge difference between the simple cane sugar samples. The neutralized turbinado is definitely the darkest and has the most complex flavor (which I am not good at describing).
View attachment 834368View attachment 834369
The top left is a smaller pan and thus deeper liquid so appears darker than it is. The top right is the neutralized turbinado.

Thanks again, that's also what I've experienced regarding the taste. I'd describe the dark one a bit like plummy tobacco thing, if that makes sense. But really hard to describe, I agree.

 

[Miraculix]

So I'm going to take an educated guess here:
The neutralized turbinado sugar is the darkest because it has undergone Maillard processes. Maillard reactions happen more readily in a higher pH. So the additional darkness contribution is from Maillard products.

The non-neutralized and neutralized refined sugar are almost the same. So if we assume that is because they are not undergoing Maillard reactions due to the lack of amino acids present in the base sugar, that means the darkening of the refined cane sugar is entirely due to caramelization.

That means that both caramelization and Maillard reactions are occurring together in the neutralized turbinado sugar. This means you need both unrefined sugar AND the neutralization step to get significant Maillard reactions.

Yes, that's what I said from the beginning.....


...Ok I stop now with the "I told you so!" Bs . Sorry...

I wouldn't say that maillard does not happen with the lighter sugar. I think it wasn't fully pure if you have a look at the pic. It just seems to happen to a much lesser degree.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yes, that's what I said from the beginning.....


...Ok I stop now with the "I told you so!" Bs . Sorry...

I wouldn't say that maillard does not happen with the lighter sugar. I think it wasn't fully pure of you have a look at the pic. It just seems to happen to a much lesser degree.

Sorry I missed that post!

 

[Colindo]

Thanks guys, I learned a lot here. Also I mixed up Turbinado and Muscovado in some of my earlier posts. So what I have been using so far was Turbinado (demerare, Rohrohrzucker), but not neutralised. Nice to know that there is more to explore for future flavour impression.

In case anyone cares, I recently tried Leffe Brune from tap in Germany and it tasted exactly like my 400 EBC invert sugar made from non-neutralised turbinado. And I mean EXACTLY! Always thought that Belgian syrups are different because they are inverted using alcaline additions, so there should be even more Maillard. But maybe not for Leffe.

PS: I'm currently going through the patens of the Easticks brothers that were mentioned on the Ragus pages posted by PeeBee in the other forums. Maybe I'll find some primary source information there.

 

[Witherby]

4.5 hour update. My kitchen has a wonderful treacle aroma. I have never gone this far on stovetop cooking, so one main takeaway is that the oven method is much easier. Given the climate crisis and energy shortage I couldn’t justify doing this again though. Starting with dark sugar and cooking for 90 minutes will be the most I ever do. Mixing with molasses would definitely be easier and faster. But the proof will be in the dark mild.

 

[TheMadKing]

4.5 hour update. My kitchen has a wonderful treacle aroma. I have never gone this far on stovetop cooking, so one main takeaway is that the oven method is much easier. Given the climate crisis and energy shortage I couldn’t justify doing this again though. Starting with dark sugar and cooking for 90 minutes will be the most I ever do. Mixing with molasses would definitely be easier and faster. But the proof will be in the dark mild.

View attachment 834387

Does the darkest one taste burnt at all?

 

[Miraculix]

Does the darkest one taste burnt at all?

That is what I aslso wanted to ask. I managed to get to this stage once as well and mine tasted acrid and I had to throw some of it away. Not all glasses were heated equally in the oven, so it was only 20% of the batch or something like that, fortunately.