English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[bierhaus15]

It's a great beer though, has sweetness, dryness, enough bitterness and lightness all in one glass. very moreish

Nice. Have you tried the mild?

 

[kmarkstevens]

@HTH1975 very interesting and informative posts.

Like @ong, I recently got the WL37 Yorkshire Square yeast from the Vault release. Made a 25 liter batch of Ron Pattisons 1939 Boddington Mild and split with WL37, Wyeast1469 W Yorkie, and Notty (my go to for things English). The Yorkie Square had sulfur odor (that has faded). Weird, the Notty was spot on OG FG, the Yorkie Sq finished at very low at 1006, and the W Yorkie high at 1012. All in my garage at ~60F. Anyhoo, bottling tonight and should be ready to sample in 2 weeks when I'm back from a biz trip to China.

I love this thread!

 

[ba-brewer]

@HTH1975 very interesting and informative posts.

Like @ong, I recently got the WL37 Yorkshire Square yeast from the Vault release. Made a 25 liter batch of Ron Pattisons 1939 Boddington Mild and split with WL37, Wyeast1469 W Yorkie, and Notty (my go to for things English). The Yorkie Square had sulfur odor (that has faded). Weird, the Notty was spot on OG FG, the Yorkie Sq finished at very low at 1006, and the W Yorkie high at 1012. All in my garage at ~60F. Anyhoo, bottling tonight and should be ready to sample in 2 weeks when I'm back from a biz trip to China.

I love this thread!

Sulfur but no clove from the wlp037?
So no temp control just ambient air temp? What do you think the delta temp swings were?

 

[HTH1975]

On the pilot kit as well? Isn’t that meant to be one of the main differences when scaling up, you need to go a bit warmer to get the esters that are otherwise suppressed by the greater hydrostatic pressure?

You’re not the first I’ve heard of fermenting up to 24C, but I believe Marstons still do an old school free rise from ?16C going into the unions. Suspect we’re back to the issue of phenolics from British yeast.

Neither of those breweries had pilot kits, lmao. It’s judt using the brewer’s experience to make sure the beer is right when developing something new.

 

[Hanglow]

Nice. Have you tried the mild?

Yes, it's not as good imo. But it's still a decent pint. I prefer other milds such as Holt's and Elgoods. That said it's been a while since I've had them and I've never tried them side by side, whereas I had the Bathams mild at the same time as the bitter

I'm fairly sure the bathams mild is just the bitter liquored back and dark invert used instead of the lighter one, or caramel colour is added, although i might be wrong

I've tried the bottled bathams bitter too but while it's fine for a bottled bitter, it's not as good as draught

 

[deadwolfbones]

I made a poorly educated American's attempt at an ESB (a style that doesn't even exist, apparently!) last weekend and missed my target volume/gravity pretty badly (high and low, respectively), so I basically have a best bitter. It tastes pretty good! Started 1.046 and finished (assuming it's done) at 1.014ish, so 4.4%. Used MO, C75, and C45 w/ all Willamette hops, mashing around 154F. Fermented with WY1968 at around 66-70F and it was done (maybe) within three days. Can't wait to see what it's like carbed up.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I made a poorly educated American's attempt at an ESB (a style that doesn't even exist, apparently!)

If anyone has ever made it, you can rest assured that it exists. An organization that has merely self proclaimed itself to be the premier authority on beer styles may claim to not recognize it, but that is a far cry from stating that it does not exist.

 

[Hanglow]

Bottled a strong ale today, continued my habit of combining german and english malts.

92.3% Crisp Extra Pale MO
7.7% IREKS Teak ( this is a dark crystal, 140ebc0 Not used it before)

hops- Admiral bittering 50g@ 60mins
25g admiral 15 mins
25g Admiral 5 mins
20g Homegrown hallertau mittelfruh 5 mins.

about 50ibus in total

og 1.062 fg1.016

just s04yeast, two packets for 24 litres or so

managed to cock up the temp control, it rose to 27c after two days thanks to a probe falling out thankfully tasted and smelled fine when bottling. in fact,very promising.

last 100ml or so of bottling bucket

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If anyone has ever made it, you can rest assured that it exists. An organization that has merely self proclaimed itself to be the premier authority on beer styles may claim to not recognize it, but that is a far cry from stating that it does not exist.

It’s more the other way round, the self-proclaimed organisation claimed that ESB was a style when nobody in Britain regards it as a style. I can say I’m the definitive expert on national anthems and that God Save The Queen is the national anthem of the US - but I rather think that it’s for USians to make that call.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It’s more the other way round, the self-proclaimed organisation claimed that ESB was a style when nobody in Britain regards it as a style. I can say I’m the definitive expert on national anthems and that God Save The Queen is the national anthem of the US - but I rather think that it’s for USians to make that call.

Indeed you are correct here. I did have the story backwards for ESB.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I travel to Wales on the train a couple of times a year and Bathams is the one reason why I enjoy an otherwise tiresome journey, as I have to change trains at Wolverhampton and there is a pub ( The Great Western) near the station that always has it on. It's a Holden's pub I think and also has their beers on too, but there's never enough time to drink them

It's a great beer though, has sweetness, dryness, enough bitterness and lightness all in one glass. very moreish

It's a mark of how good Bathams is that it can make people look forward to a trip to Wolverhampton!

+1 to all the above - but emphasising the balance, elegance and dryness of the Best on cask. It's significantly drier than the Burton pales and a world away from the gloopy-sweet crystal bombs like Hobgoblin that USians seem to think are typical of British bitter.

And for USians who like drinking in a corner of an industrial unit, this is how you do a brewery tap!

 

[schmurf]

Anyone have a recipe for the Bathams best bitter? Or is the bierhaus attempt in some previous post a good starting point?

 

[bierhaus15]

Anyone have a recipe for the Bathams best bitter? Or is the bierhaus attempt in some previous post a good starting point?

If you find a better starting point, let me know. I've spent a fair amount of effort looking for info on the brew and there isn't much to be had, other than the standard GW recipe: Maris Otter with Northdown and Fuggles in the boil and Goldings in either WP or cask hop. 1.043 OG. Newer sources (Pete Brown, ect) indicate they also use invert sugar in the brew. The beer is said to finish quite dry and bitter, but with a balanced sweetness. Their yeast is supposedly repitched continuously and flavor descriptions lean towards balanced with lightly-fruity notes. Some diacetyl has been noted in the cask as well. As such, I've stuck with using high attenuating, flocculative yeasts that provide a rounded flavor with some fruity character. The Cullercoats yeast has done very well in this, although I prefer the drier and more mineral forward Wards yeast for my latest batch. Wyeast 1469 or WY1335 should be suitable/similar. Based on their municipal water, a moderate sulfate-forward profile has worked well.

 

[ba-brewer]

Anyone have a recipe for the Bathams best bitter? Or is the bierhaus attempt in some previous post a good starting point?

There is a recipe Bathams Best bitter in the CAMRA brew your own british real ale book. It is just base malt and hopped to 30IBU with fuggle and northdown, golding as a post boil hop.

edit: changed dry hop to post boil

 

[schmurf]

There is a recipe Bathams Best bitter in the CAMRA brew your own british real ale book. It is just base malt and hopped to 30IBU with fuggle and northdown, golding as a post boil hop.

edit: changed dry hop to post boil

I think that's the same as bierhaus recipe.

 

[ba-brewer]

I think that's the same as bierhaus recipe.

yes I missed connecting GW to the CAMRA recipe.

The recipe for 23L calls for 27gm of fuggle and 16gm of northdown and 9gm of golding, 90min boil

The final gravity in the book is 1010 which does not seen like it would be too dry unless it is the water that makes it that way. I think bierhaus recipe from the other day might make a drier beer. ​

 

[HTH1975]

If you find a better starting point, let me know. I've spent a fair amount of effort looking for info on the brew and there isn't much to be had, other than the standard GW recipe: Maris Otter with Northdown and Fuggles in the boil and Goldings in either WP or cask hop. 1.043 OG. Newer sources (Pete Brown, ect) indicate they also use invert sugar in the brew. The beer is said to finish quite dry and bitter, but with a balanced sweetness. Their yeast is supposedly repitched continuously and flavor descriptions lean towards balanced with lightly-fruity notes. Some diacetyl has been noted in the cask as well. As such, I've stuck with using high attenuating, flocculative yeasts that provide a rounded flavor with some fruity character. The Cullercoats yeast has done very well in this, although I prefer the drier and more mineral forward Wards yeast for my latest batch. Wyeast 1469 or WY1335 should be suitable/similar. Based on their municipal water, a moderate sulfate-forward profile has worked well.

I’d love to know which brewery the Cullercoats yeast is supposed to be from. Cullercoats is just a small town on the coast of North East England about 10 mile away from Newcastle. I can’t think of any breweries up there on the coast. Anyone???

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It's this mob - www.cullercoatsbrewery.co.uk, started by a solicitor in 2011. No doubt their yeast originally came from a regional like Vaux or somewhere, but as stored at Brewlab it's become a bit of a cult favourite - a really vigorous top-cropper.

Yep, GW = Graham Wheeler, author of a bunch of clone recipe books. It's worth noting that his early books in particular were somewhat restricted by the availability of ingredients to homebrewers in the UK, so he used various hacks to approximate things like invert sugar and some of the more obscure hops so they shouldn't be treated as complete gospel, but he did have good access to breweries and bags of experience.

I've not had Bathams on cask lately, but I'd have said BU:GU of 1.0 is on the high side, it's more like 0.8 or so, you get that bitterness and dryness on the finish which makes it really moreish, whilst still having a bit of caramel sweetness at the start. I think some kind of sugar must be in there to get that dryness and lightness.

 

[ba-brewer]

Looking at the recipes in the CAMRA book most do not seem too different from one another. That matches the comments in the James Kemp link you posted in that most breweries use the same base ingredients so it must be the house yeasts that makes them unique.

 

[bierhaus15]

The Les Howarth database book is also a good starting point for many UK beers. Not gospel by any means, but that's not the point. I don't see how anyone can expect to precisely replicate these beers, given the huge differences in brewing process and yeast/ingredients. Most American home brewers will never taste the real thing anyways.

One of the most helpful sources for UK beer info has been the IBD. I have a subscription having taken the courses and its full of good info on things like brewing sugar, fermentation regimens, and process. Worth checking out.

 

[HTH1975]

It's this mob - www.cullercoatsbrewery.co.uk, started by a solicitor in 2011. No doubt their yeast originally came from a regional like Vaux or somewhere, but as stored at Brewlab it's become a bit of a cult favourite - a really vigorous top-cropper.

Thanks for that - I will have to try it out.

I wonder if the Maxim Brewery guys use the original Vaux yeast strain as they are/were ex-Vaux guys who set it up.

It’s a crying shame that Vaux and Scottish & Newcastle breweries were knocked to the ground. They were such huge parts of the respective town/city with a long, rich heritage. I remember seeing the casks being delivered in Sunderland town centre on a horse and cart back in the 90s when I was at Uni. Such a shame to lose those places.

 

[HTH1975]

Looking at the recipes in the CAMRA book most do not seem too different from one another. That matches the comments in the James Kemp link you posted in that most breweries use the same base ingredients so it must be the house yeasts that makes them unique.

House yeast AND process I’d say, especially for the older breweries where they might use the Yorkshire Square or Burton Union systems.

Remember that even mash thickness has an effect on mouthfeel, and this is an area where I see variation depending on the brewery.

Some breweries are very old-school and don’t precisely measure everything. The beer is more a result of the brewhouse process. For example... When we mash in at work, we literally do it by feel and the mash thickness tends to vary depending on the recipe, and brewer. Saying that, we tend to have a slack mash around 3kg/L for lighter beers and around 2.5kg/L for darker beers.

The size and shape of the FV also plays a part - our FVs are open top cylindrical vessels, and this is obviously very different to thinner/taller closed-top connical FVs.

Also consider pitching temperature and amount of yeast. That also changes things up depending on the specific brewery process.

So even with the same recipe, different breweries will produce dissimilar beers.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I wonder if the Maxim Brewery guys use the original Vaux yeast strain as they are/were ex-Vaux guys who set it up.

I believe so. Given the corporate history, it could be the same as the Wards one that bierhaus mentioned?

It’s a crying shame that Vaux and Scottish & Newcastle breweries were knocked to the ground. They were such huge parts of the respective town/city with a long, rich heritage.

Not the only ones - it's a kick in the stomach every time I park in the Brewery Car Park in Leeds. Not the car park of the brewery, but the car park where Tetley used to stand.

 

[HTH1975]

I believe so. Given the corporate history, it could be the same as the Wards one that bierhaus mentioned.

I used to work opposite the Maxim Brewery and never once went in there. Next time I’m that way I might see if I can grab a jar of yeast from them. Never had anyone decline a yeast sample yet.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Sulfur but no clove from the wlp037?
So no temp control just ambient air temp? What do you think the delta temp swings were?

I don't have a trained palette, but yes had a sulfur odor/taste. More accurately, OG was ~1036, at 7 days there was a noticeable but not overly strong sulfur smell with gravity at 1008. 14 days after pitching, the sulfur odor/taste was gone and FG at 1006. I didn't get clove.

Ambient air temperature in my unheated garage. I have a big dial thermometer that reads right around 58F most of the time, so guess 55-60F range (maybe 50-60F? I'm in Seattle which has a pretty moderate climate).

 

[ba-brewer]

I don't have a trained palette, but yes had a sulfur odor/taste. More accurately, OG was ~1036, at 7 days there was a noticeable but not overly strong sulfur smell with gravity at 1008. 14 days after pitching, the sulfur odor/taste was gone and FG at 1006. I didn't get clove.

Ambient air temperature in my unheated garage. I have a big dial thermometer that reads right around 58F most of the time, so guess 55-60F range (maybe 50-60F? I'm in Seattle which has a pretty moderate climate).

Thanks for the information, looks like you were down in the lager temp area which could explain the sulfur aroma. When I give this yeast another try I will see how low I can get it to ferment and see if that changes the clove phenolics I got.

I don't think you would need a trained palette to pick up the clove in beer it is not subtle.

Looks like you got pretty high attenuation too, not as high as what I got but still over the published numbers.

 

[Miraculix]

Messing around with an idea.

16l, og 1.04, fg about 1.01, ibus 25 to 30

1.8kg mo pale
0.2kg spelt malt (for the head)
0.125kg Crystal 60l
0.3kg golden syrup

All goldings, split into 30 min and 5 min additions.

Yeast omega pub (supposed to be the fullers strain)

The aim is a British ale on the dryer side with medium carbonation (2.5g sugar/0.5l).

Thoughts on this one?

 

[HTH1975]

Messing around with an idea.

16l, og 1.04, fg about 1.01, ibus 25 to 30

1.8kg mo pale
0.2kg spelt malt (for the head)
0.125kg Crystal 60l
0.3kg golden syrup

All goldings, split into 30 min and 5 min additions.

Yeast omega pub (supposed to be the fullers strain)

The aim is a British ale on the dryer side with medium carbonation (2.5g sugar/0.5l).

Thoughts on this one?

Looks promising, I’d give it a go. Never used Spelt malt, it’s not something I’ve ever used for a bitter for head retention. We tend to use torrified wheat, but carapils also works well for this. I like to use a bit of both, about 2-5% wheat and 5-8% carapils.

I knocked up a quick version in Brewers Friend...

 

[Miraculix]

Looks promising, I’d give it a go. Never used Spelt malt, it’s not something I’ve ever used for a bitter for head retention. We tend to use torrified wheat, but carapils also works well for this. I like to use a bit of both, about 2-5% wheat and 5-8% carapils.

I knocked up a quick version in Brewers Friend...

Spelt malt is kind of a slightly nutty wheat malt. Afaik it is kind of the "grandma" of modern wheat. In such a small percentage it should actually be comparable to normal wheat. I will brew something with a higher percentage of it once to compare the actual taste against wheat. But not now.... I wanted to keep it low on the crystal side, therefore I did not add aditional carapils (or carahell). Will do something with it in my next session apa though

Thanks for the beersmith pics, that looks like what I had in mind. Except the huge amount of hops. My Goldings have actually 6.5% Alpha, so it will be less hops anyway, but I might add a bit of Magnum to the 30min adition, just to keep it reasonable. ending up between 2-3g per Liter sounds about right to me.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I brew for York Brewery. Terrier is probably my fave too - ESB territory.

Sorry to hear the news, hope it all works out for you.

 

[HTH1975]

Sorry to hear the news, hope it all works out for you.

Thanks for the comment, much appreciated. Luckily, I only brew part-time for them - my ‘day job’ is distilling Gin.

I think York Brewery will be fine - sure there will be some interested parties looking to expand their portfolio as the brewery also has its own pubs in York.

 

[ba-brewer]

It would be worth asking if they have the Holts yeast - a very mundane brewery but the yeast has spread around some of the most successful of the new wave of British breweries. The legendary James Kemp sings its praises here : http://www.port66.co.uk/yeast-brewing-myths-ideal-house-strain/

I asked about the Holts brewery yeast, but they said they do not have that one. I recall reading a post that asking by brewery may not the appropriate way to inquire and I may need to be coy about my inquiry. If so could suggest the indirect route to find that yeast.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I asked about the Holts brewery yeast, but they said they do not have that one. I recall reading a post that asking by brewery may not the appropriate way to inquire and I may need to be coy about my inquiry. If so could suggest the indirect route to find that yeast.

If they don't have it, they don't have it - they don't pretend to have every single brewery.

I don't know if eg Thornbridge bottle condition with production yeast, they may well do.

 

[lowtones84]

Been a while since I've been on this site in general, but just started back into brewing and introducing a friend. This will be our third batch. I used to do plenty of English ales for about 2 years straight. What do you think of this recipe for a Best Bitter? Thought for the brown malt is to bring a little color without sweetness and lend a touch of roasted quality to enhance a biscuity feel. Too much invert? Too much flaked barley?

10 Gallons
OG: 1.046
IBU: 32.45
SRM:7

11 lb. Crisp MO
1.5 lb. Flaked Barley
.75 lb. Brown malt
2 lbs. homemade Invert #1

1.25 oz. Target @ 60
.75 oz. Target @ 0
1 oz. EKG@ 0

WLP002

Thanks all in advance!

 

[EnglishAndy]

I don't know if eg Thornbridge bottle condition with production yeast, they may well do.

See this article for Thornbridge (about half way down)

 

[Hanglow]

looks like black sheep have bought york brewery. Hopefully everyone keeps their jobs

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Been a while since I've been on this site in general, but just started back into brewing and introducing a friend. This will be our third batch. I used to do plenty of English ales for about 2 years straight. What do you think of this recipe for a Best Bitter? Thought for the brown malt is to bring a little color without sweetness and lend a touch of roasted quality to enhance a biscuity feel.

You're the head brewer, and you're brewing for a drinker with your tastes, so it's up to you. Personally I wouldn't feel much compulsion to go too far from the classic recipe - pale, bit of invert/adjunct, bit less crystal, bit of torrified wheat if you're up north. You're drifting somewhere into brown/old territory with that grist - nothing wrong with that, there's some great beers in that mould, but you're drifting away from a classic bitter.

It's a fundamental mistake to try and adjust colour with "flavour" ingredients. Get the flavour right and then worry about the colour separately. If you don't have any caramel or black to hand, then you just say it's a Manchester bitter - Boddington's is effectively a pale malt/Goldings SMaSH.

Personally I'm not the biggest fan of Target, and it's largely dropped out of use here except in a couple of legacy recipes, it's down below 8% of hop acreage and falling fast. It's OK for bittering but I'd be tempted to use something else, and definitely change that late addition. Straight Goldings is great, I love a bit of Bramling Cross mixed in there but you can play around with all sorts of things in the blend.

And use the most characterful yeast you can find - WLP041 is a more interesting variation on the WLP002 theme for instance.

 

[Miraculix]

You're the head brewer, and you're brewing for a drinker with your tastes, so it's up to you. Personally I wouldn't feel much compulsion to go too far from the classic recipe - pale, bit of invert/adjunct, bit less crystal, bit of torrified wheat if you're up north. You're drifting somewhere into brown/old territory with that grist - nothing wrong with that, there's some great beers in that mould, but you're drifting away from a classic bitter.

It's a fundamental mistake to try and adjust colour with "flavour" ingredients. Get the flavour right and then worry about the colour separately. If you don't have any caramel or black to hand, then you just say it's a Manchester bitter - Boddington's is effectively a pale malt/Goldings SMaSH.

Personally I'm not the biggest fan of Target, and it's largely dropped out of use here except in a couple of legacy recipes, it's down below 8% of hop acreage and falling fast. It's OK for bittering but I'd be tempted to use something else, and definitely change that late addition. Straight Goldings is great, I love a bit of Bramling Cross mixed in there but you can play around with all sorts of things in the blend.

And use the most characterful yeast you can find - WLP041 is a more interesting variation on the WLP002 theme for instance.

Is 002 supposed to be the fullers strain?

Just brewed something with imperial yeast pub, which is also supposed to be the fullers strain. I definitely got some of the typical london pride flavours from this, without the cloying sweetness (due to the recipe I used). I love it.

Would you say that 041 is somehow similar tastewise? Where do you see the difference between 002 and 041?

Edit: Nevermind, found this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/pacific-ale-yeast-wlp041.648269/
You are basically answering everything I asked already over there, except for the taste comparison between the supposed to be fullers strain (I strongly believe that, at least imperial yeast pub IS actually the fullers strain) and the 041.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

You're the head brewer, and you're brewing for a drinker with your tastes, so it's up to you. Personally I wouldn't feel much compulsion to go too far from the classic recipe - pale, bit of invert/adjunct, bit less crystal, bit of torrified wheat if you're up north. You're drifting somewhere into brown/old territory with that grist - nothing wrong with that, there's some great beers in that mould, but you're drifting away from a classic bitter.

It's a fundamental mistake to try and adjust colour with "flavour" ingredients. Get the flavour right and then worry about the colour separately. If you don't have any caramel or black to hand, then you just say it's a Manchester bitter - Boddington's is effectively a pale malt/Goldings SMaSH.

Personally I'm not the biggest fan of Target, and it's largely dropped out of use here except in a couple of legacy recipes, it's down below 8% of hop acreage and falling fast. It's OK for bittering but I'd be tempted to use something else, and definitely change that late addition. Straight Goldings is great, I love a bit of Bramling Cross mixed in there but you can play around with all sorts of things in the blend.

And use the most characterful yeast you can find - WLP041 is a more interesting variation on the WLP002 theme for instance.

1. Very pleased to say I just received some Brupak Brewer's Caramel! A colorin' we go! Thanks, as it was your note on using this, over colored malts for coloring, that guided the decision.

2. I will be trying some "Fuller's," complete with Target as kettle hop, Target as dry hop. Very curious about this, as, mirroring what you're saying, I don't know that I've seen a recipe anywhere using it. Have a lot of BX to use up as well. Actually, a lot of pellets as I just got a false bottom for the kettle and intend on getting a hopback and PC, if I can land on the PC to use. One thing at a time!

 

[HTH1975]

looks like black sheep have bought york brewery. Hopefully everyone keeps their jobs

I don’t know any more than that, but it’s good news.