I gotta start baking again, we used to make a lot of sourdough bread a few years ago...
English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?
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...as did we all.
We'll trade, lads. You get baking again....and I'll get brewing again.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
@Gadjobrinus I had most of my studies completely in English with international students as colleagues, so for me speaking English is like a second nature. My one year old daughter gets mostly British bedtime stories etc. I did a semester in France but it takes several days for me to become fluent there, as I rarely use it during my everyday life.
If you'd like, we can chat in German via DM.
If you'd like, we can chat in German via DM.
Sorry for the resurrections guys, playing catch up on many things as I am literally starting over on everything. Does anyone happen to know which edition this is? And Cire, or another, you reference a 1995 Wheeler & Protz book. Is this the same one?
This was the version I had btw.
October 1998 edition get the third edition 2010.
Got it. Thanks.
I'm afraid I'm still A2 or so, so intimidated to say the least! Working on it and hope to get a much better fluency. Bummer - fluent in French as I was immersed in it from very young, but though I always wanted to learn German I put it off until I'm now in my 60's and it doesn't come along as easily, c'est la vie. So, hoping to improve. Until then, I'm afraid I converse like a child, lol.
I recently stumbled over this:
"Describe the German language in one sentence: The oposite of "umfahren" is "umfahren"."
.... the bad thing is... it is actually true
.
"Describe the German language in one sentence: The oposite of "umfahren" is "umfahren"."
.... the bad thing is... it is actually true
.It might be thought so. The British regularly claim all our wars and associated borrowings are paid for by tax on beer.
As every brewer who has successfully incorporated sugars into their beers will know, it is easy to add a little more and get a little more. I don't know how beer is currently taxed in USA, but after the end of prohibition it was at a single rate, regardless of strength. In UK, since 1880, tax has been paid on the volume and gravity output of the mashtun. More recently, duty on weaker beers was reduced and those on stronger beers increased, and sugar can play a major part in stronger beer.
When sugar is for beer in Britain, it first has to be bonded, then dissolved in a vessel specifically for that purpose, together with full record. This shows the setup in one British brewery that still uses sugar. The blue bags contain 25kg blocks of Ragus invert, the tubs contain sugar syrups.
The following piece was by Graham Wheeler. Note his his experience of the Excise Man.
It is included in its entirety as Graham never minded his writings being quoted when in total context.
This beer contains 76% pale malt, 11% of 2 crystal malts and 13% of 2 home made inverts. The taste is luscious from the sugars on a firm malt base.
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Colindo
Well-Known Member
@cire Thanks for the detailed information. Are the quotes from the older versions of BYOBRA? The newest edition, which I own, pretty much ignores all sugar-related questions and in the recipes the sugar is aways given as white sugar with some black malt for colour. Tragedy that he did not write down which invert was used...
I don't know where it is from, except it was in my sugar files on hard disk. I suspect it isn't from a publication, it doesn't seem to be written in the same style he used for his books. I said it was written by him because he and I had long conversations on the subject and it was his strongly held opinion.
Graham didn't quote the actual sugars for a couple of reasons, firstly that they were not readily available to homebrewers and secondly because many breweries wouldn't admit to using sugar. I did a bulk purchase of Ragus inverts 1, 2 and 3 some years ago from the wholesaler who managed their distribution, but they no longer offer those blocks, so I assume Ragus have taken that back inhouse. They were wonderful.
Graham and I knew one another, he was the younger. He told me had visited many breweries, but also many of his recipes came from Roger Protz. He had watched brewery deliveries, which included sugars to those who didn't admit to using them in their beers.
Graham is badly missed today, particularly as most information on British beers is from sources with no direct experience of how those were made.
Few historic beers are as simple as might be thought. Take this grain bill as an example.
Graham didn't quote the actual sugars for a couple of reasons, firstly that they were not readily available to homebrewers and secondly because many breweries wouldn't admit to using sugar. I did a bulk purchase of Ragus inverts 1, 2 and 3 some years ago from the wholesaler who managed their distribution, but they no longer offer those blocks, so I assume Ragus have taken that back inhouse. They were wonderful.
Graham and I knew one another, he was the younger. He told me had visited many breweries, but also many of his recipes came from Roger Protz. He had watched brewery deliveries, which included sugars to those who didn't admit to using them in their beers.
Graham is badly missed today, particularly as most information on British beers is from sources with no direct experience of how those were made.
Few historic beers are as simple as might be thought. Take this grain bill as an example.
Edited as OT.
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Got some sugar prepared for next weeks brew. Gonna invert it the night before brewing, plan is to heat to 80c, add 300mg/100g sugar at 80c, let it reach a simmer, add 150mg/100g sugar of soda and let it simmer 5-10 additional minutes.
White cane as base 50%, other half is 3/4 light muscovado and 1/4 dark muscovado.
White cane as base 50%, other half is 3/4 light muscovado and 1/4 dark muscovado.
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And the finished product. I boiled an additional 5 for a total of 20 after neutralising. Quite dark.
Will be used in a 1950's Lee's best mild inspired ale.
Crisp Vienna as base, 7%Crisp Brown, 6% Simpson Light Crystal, 12% invert 3
1.035 OG 20 IBU
Challenger as bittering and 1g/L Bramling X at 20 min left of boil.
Will be used in a 1950's Lee's best mild inspired ale.
Crisp Vienna as base, 7%Crisp Brown, 6% Simpson Light Crystal, 12% invert 3
1.035 OG 20 IBU
Challenger as bittering and 1g/L Bramling X at 20 min left of boil.
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Oh and some 30ml ~10000 ebc brewers caramel to get the color properly dark...
Yes, it will be necessary. I added 75ml of Brupaks invert to a 50 litre brew of Lee's Best mild from 1952 by Ron Pattinson after fermentation. The recipe by itself isn't dark enough.
Can admin split sugar from English ales please.
Why? It's a fairly integral part of English brewing so it is IMO very related to the topic.
Should we split discussions about maltsters and yeast from the main thread aswell?
Should we split discussions about maltsters and yeast from the main thread aswell?
Colindo
Well-Known Member
Has anyone tried making Brewer's caramel themselves? To what darkness should it be boiled? I read that in the beginning it was fairly pale, some 1000 EBC, but got subsequently darker and therefore with a much smaller flavour impact. I would aim for 1000, I guess.
Is it still sold in the UK, or no longer? I know some countries don't allow it because of the risk of carcinogenic side products.
Is it still sold in the UK, or no longer? I know some countries don't allow it because of the risk of carcinogenic side products.
I would have thought it unwise to discuss English, any British, Ales in a factual manner, were sugar to be excluded. Imagine excluding Timothy Taylor, Sam Smith, Harvey's, Adnams, Bateman's, Black Sheep, Boddington's, Burton Bridge, Camerons ....................................................................................Wadworth, Worthington, not mention every decent Dark Mild beer ever made.
Should we discuss Budweiser and never mention rice?
I think some UK brewshops have the really dark type, there are varieties, the basic variety e150(brewferm has it) wich is just burnt sugar in water solution and e150c/d where some chemical is added so it can be burnt harder/darker without carbonising.
The e150 is about 10000 ebc, I have a couple bottles of it while the e150c/d pushes 30000ebc.
Regarding making it at home it can be done but I think it's pretty time consuming and you must watch the sugar like a hawk once it starts burning.
The e150 is about 10000 ebc, I have a couple bottles of it while the e150c/d pushes 30000ebc.
Regarding making it at home it can be done but I think it's pretty time consuming and you must watch the sugar like a hawk once it starts burning.
It was said some brewers stopped using caramel for that very reason.
It is still available.
How to make it.
Just noticed you are in Germany. No need to tell you how secretive brewers are about their processes.
And I think that their testing concluded that e150c and d when mixed could form some carcinogenic compound, but you would have to consume absolutely ridiculous amounts of caramel to be at risk. So it is still allowed to use in food.
I think that link is a guide to make caramelised sugar for baking, but I think for caramel colour you just do the same thing but burn the sugar intentionally before adding a dash of water.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
I have this recipe from unholymess.com
I also bought black food colouring (says E150d in the ingredients list) to be able to compare, but I think everyone would agree the black colouring will be boring because it will not impart any flavour. The historic caramel is said to be 100% unfermentable sugar, so will round off the flavour a bit and give body. Read that somewhere on Ron's blog.
I also bought black food colouring (says E150d in the ingredients list) to be able to compare, but I think everyone would agree the black colouring will be boring because it will not impart any flavour. The historic caramel is said to be 100% unfermentable sugar, so will round off the flavour a bit and give body. Read that somewhere on Ron's blog.
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Then you have bought "brewers caramel" use sparingly because that stuff is DARK.
All caramel colour is unfermentable sugar as it is made of 100% caramellised sugar.
@patto1ro maybe the Guru himself might shed some light on wether caramel was less dark back in the day.
I'd make an educated guess that it likely has been very dark for quite awhile since they made it with ammonium compound even in the late 1800's
All caramel colour is unfermentable sugar as it is made of 100% caramellised sugar.
@patto1ro maybe the Guru himself might shed some light on wether caramel was less dark back in the day.
I'd make an educated guess that it likely has been very dark for quite awhile since they made it with ammonium compound even in the late 1800's
Guess what I'm going to do tonight?
I was standing in front of the shelve with it in the supermarket yesterday as well. I think the d version is indeed the so called brewer's caramel. There's an interesting post about it in one of the German forums... Wait, let me fetch the link for you....
There you go: Brewers Caramel = Zuckercouleur? - Hobbybrauer.de
Isn't this stuff available in every country on the baker's shelve in the supermarkets?
Getting sloshed and eating syrup sandwiches?
You nailed it!
...going to be a quite invert heavy bitter. Nearly 17% by weight, not going to open the jar and then leave a rest in it standing in the cupboard waiting to be thrown away. It is advertised as a spread... who eats invertsirup with added glucose sirup on bread? I bought it at the local fancy shmancy supermarket, the normal one didn't stock it. Maybe this is what rich people eat? Maybe that is why I am middle class? I shall have a invertsirup sammich today! Everybody shall call me Sir tomorrow!
Fuggles and cascade as bittering hops, I do not have enough Goldings to cover for that (middle class...). Goldings at 15 minutes and probably also dry.
Sounds delicious! The beer that is.
I'm gonna keg my brown ale tonight or tomorrow, went from 1.046 to 1.012.
Note to self, amber malt though not very dark, seemingly produces no fermentable sugars in the mash.
Simpson GP and Crisp vienna 50/50 as base, 10% Simpson amber, 7% Simpson medium crystal, 2% Simpson chocolate and 10% invert 2. A table spoon of caramel in the boil.
The samples had a nice bready and toasted nuts flavour though.
I'm gonna keg my brown ale tonight or tomorrow, went from 1.046 to 1.012.
Note to self, amber malt though not very dark, seemingly produces no fermentable sugars in the mash.
Simpson GP and Crisp vienna 50/50 as base, 10% Simpson amber, 7% Simpson medium crystal, 2% Simpson chocolate and 10% invert 2. A table spoon of caramel in the boil.
The samples had a nice bready and toasted nuts flavour though.
Erik the e150 is Brewtherm and the e150c/d is Brupak then, is that right?
I'd thought caramel as commonly known or used in flan, etc., wasn't the same thing since this cooking caramel definitely lends a unique flavor. It's the same thing, just managed carefully into a much darker range?
Yes!
Correct, the chemically assisted ones are about 3x darker than the "natural" one.
Sorry, hadn't read this yet. Wow, caramel for cooking is one thing but taking it to this stage seems nigh impossible to me. I wonder if a copper sugar pot would help.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Murphys offer the 33,000 EBC Caramel TMF which I think comes from Nigay in France who have a helpful page on the different kinds of caramel. I think that's the stuff that is packaged for homebrewers by Brewferm etc, and the Murphy data sheet confirms it's E150c which per Nigay is ammonia caramel and the version they recommend for beer. I've also seen a darker caramel FB-125 for dark beers which is EBC 42,000. Whereas Nigay recommend E150d for cola and petfood!!!
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