English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Miraculix]

How do you guys establish the different grades - is it a color standard, you can visually compare? I ask because years ago I made some, shooting for No. 2, but it sure seemed dark. I'd love to have 3 good sugars to work with.

I am personally disliking the approach of looking at brewing ingredients like a scientist in a lab. I for myself look at the ingredients more from a chefs perspective. I experiment with the ingredients and the process until I like the result. Until it fits what I had in mind, what I was aiming for. A good start would be 70/30 to 80/20 golden sugar to darkest sugar ratio. This is what gets the best result for me for quicker turnaround beers like bitters. One or two months aging type of beers. I suggest starting with that and then try it and then evaluate if you would like to have it darker or lighter and then adjust accordingly. Please note that this is my personal approach. Others obviously have completely different approaches and that is fine too.

 

[Miraculix]

To give amore complete picture, I basically have three grades. The one above, which is kind of in the middle so probably my personal number two. Number 1, the lightest would be the golden sugar only (I do not use this one that much tbh) and the darkest, my personal number three consists of only the dark sugar inverted. The last one is usually used for my stronger beers which are intended to be aged for a longer time.

 

[user 246304]

I am personally disliking the approach of looking at brewing ingredients like a scientist in a lab. I for myself look at the ingredients more from a chefs perspective. I experiment with the ingredients and the process until I like the result. Until it fits what I had in mind, what I was aiming for. A good start would be 70/30 to 80/20 golden sugar to darkest sugar ratio. This is what gets the best result for me for quicker turnaround beers like bitters. One or two months aging type of beers. I suggest starting with that and then try it and then evaluate if you would like to have it darker or lighter and then adjust accordingly. Please note that this is my personal approach. Others obviously have completely different approaches and that is fine too.

Former (French) chef and I really appreciate your comment. And a great reminder to me, too, since I am always overthinking things and could stand to lighten up as you're describing.

Sorry for misunderstanding - when you say 70/30 or 80/20, do you mean something like blending white cane/demerara, then inverting? Or you're blending the two invert sugars (something like a Lyle's style syrup with a darker invert), to get the blend?

 

[user 246304]

To give amore complete picture, I basically have three grades. The one above, which is kind of in the middle so probably my personal number two. Number 1, the lightest would be the golden sugar only (I do not use this one that much tbh) and the darkest, my personal number three consists of only the dark sugar inverted. The last one is usually used for my stronger beers which are intended to be aged for a longer time.

Ah, sorry, crossed in the mail. Many thanks.

 

[Miraculix]

Former (French) chef and I really appreciate your comment. And a great reminder to me, too, since I am always overthinking things and could stand to lighten up as you're describing.

Sorry for misunderstanding - when you say 70/30 or 80/20, do you mean something like blending white cane/demerara, then inverting? Or you're blending the two invert sugars (something like a Lyle's style syrup with a darker invert), to get the blend?

Great, then you know more about cooking than me and you probably completely get what I mean!

I never use refined sugar in neither my cooking nor my brewing. For me, refined table sugar is inferior to all the great sugars that are out there. Stripped off it's character one could say. I don't even use it for carbonation. It is always the golden one from alnatura which I linked to above, or at least similar quality darker ones that I use. The golden one from Alnatura has a french text on it as well, if I remember correctly, so it probably is sold in France as well. Also for my inverts, I would never use refined table sugar. But again, that is only my personal approach.

 

[user 246304]

Great, then you know more about cooking than me and you probably completely get what I mean!

I never use refined sugar in neither my cooking nor my brewing. For me, refined table sugar is inferior to all the great sugars that are out there. Stripped off it's character one could say. I don't even use it for carbonation. It is always the golden one from alnatura which I linked to above, or at least similar quality darker ones that I use. The golden one from Alnatura has a french text on it as well, if I remember correctly, so it probably is sold in France as well. Also for my inverts, I would never use refined table sugar. But again, that is only my personal approach.

Oh, I don't know about that, not from what I've seen! Thanks for the links too and I'll do some digging.

 

[Colindo]

How do you guys establish the different grades - is it a color standard, you can visually compare? I ask because years ago I made some, shooting for No. 2, but it sure seemed dark. I'd love to have 3 good sugars to work with.

I like to compare it to an extract made from a malt with the same EBC. But you must make sure that the thickness of the liquid is equal in all cases in order to make sure you are comparing correctly.

But as @Miraculix said, the best way is to taste it and adjust according to what you expect as a chef.

 

[Colindo]

To get back to brewing Englisch Ales a bit (I know I was part of the distraction), here is a picture of a clone of Theakston Old Peculier, as drawn from a hand pump with sparkler:


Done with 5% Crystal 150 and 4% Roasted barley. Together with a co-pitch of S-04 and WLP500. The latter to bring out the fruit flavours, which worked really nicely. A good example of how Belgian yeasts can be used for British beers. Fermentation was at a constant 20°C.

 

[Brewskey]

To get back to brewing Englisch Ales a bit (I know I was part of the distraction), here is a picture of a clone of Theakston Old Peculier, as drawn from a hand pump with sparkler:
View attachment 834547

Done with 5% Crystal 150 and 4% Roasted barley. Together with a co-pitch of S-04 and WLP500. The latter to bring out the fruit flavours, which worked really nicely. A good example of how Belgian yeasts can be used for British beers. Fermentation was at a constant 20°C.

That looks nice. How would you compare it to the real thing?

 

[Colindo]

It has been 17 months since I tried the real thing, but I'd say if WLP500 would clear a bit better, it would certainly be spot on.

My friend who has been brewing the beer after my recipe and who tasted the original a few months ago says it is spot on already.

 

[Brewskey]

It has been 17 months since I tried the real thing, but I'd say if WLP500 would clear a bit better, it would certainly be spot on.

My friend who has been brewing the beer after my recipe and who tasted the original a few months ago says it is spot on already.

Is the recipe on your YouTube channel? I may try it out.

Edit: I found it.

 

[Colindo]

Yes, apart from the yeast choice, it's on there...

 

[DuncB]

Regarding maturing invert sugar. Tins of Golden syrup left for a long time certainly darken, this may well be due to evaporation as crystallization can occur, I've never tried to dilute and reheat to see if the colour changes back. I prefer the more concentrated golden syrup in porridge etc.

 

[user 246304]

To get back to brewing Englisch Ales a bit (I know I was part of the distraction), here is a picture of a clone of Theakston Old Peculier, as drawn from a hand pump with sparkler:
View attachment 834547

Done with 5% Crystal 150 and 4% Roasted barley. Together with a co-pitch of S-04 and WLP500. The latter to bring out the fruit flavours, which worked really nicely. A good example of how Belgian yeasts can be used for British beers. Fermentation was at a constant 20°C.

Looks fantastic. Likely a dumb question, but I presume you also used Treacle?

 

[user 246304]

Is the recipe on your YouTube channel? I may try it out.

Edit: I found it.

Sorry for the side-query, but Colindo, can you point me to your channel?

-and just noticed you and Miraculix are both German. Very pleased to know that! - I am part of a wonderful German baking community, Angebacken - Die Brot Community. I bake several loaves of traditional German breads weekly, and in fact there's been community interest in my going on a sort of nano-neighborhood basis weekly. Just an assortment from last Christmas.

 

[Miraculix]

Sorry for the side-query, but Colindo, can you point me to your channel?

-and just noticed you and Miraculix are both German. Very pleased to know that! - I am part of a wonderful German baking community, Angebacken - Die Brot Community. I bake several loaves of traditional German breads weekly, and in fact there's been community interest in my going on a sort of nano-neighborhood basis weekly. Just an assortment from last Christmas.

View attachment 834555

If I'd be your neighbour the bread would spark my interest as well.

They look way better than my breads. I bake all my bread myself, started a sour dough years ago and keep on using that one. Just flour and water plus sometimes sun flower seeds. Spelt and rye in varying proportions.

But to be fair, I'm lazy so I optimised my baking routine just for time saving while keeping the taste as is. This involves baking inside of my mixing bowl, so no fancy shapes like you got there.

 

[Colindo]

Those breads look stunning! Very good job! I used to bake bread back when I was a student, but nowadays I just buy it at the better bakeries.

Looks fantastic. Likely a dumb question, but I presume you also used Treacle?

I first found a recipe that used molasses, so I bought some of that in an organic store but it gave an incredibly strong liquorice flavour. I later found out that Theakston does all-grain nowadays, at least according to their website, so I adjusted Graham Wheeler's recipe a bit to the percentages I gave earlier and got to a very close flavour.

I bought Black Treacle in the UK in the meantime to be able to clone Fuller's Imperial Stout, which I loved back when they still produced it. It uses both Black Treacle and Ragus Invert No 3.

Sorry for the side-query, but Colindo, can you point me to your channel?

Sure, I'll link the second Theakston video below

 

[eshea3]

I am personally disliking the approach of looking at brewing ingredients like a scientist in a lab. I for myself look at the ingredients more from a chefs perspective. I experiment with the ingredients and the process until I like the result. Until it fits what I had in mind, what I was aiming for. A good start would be 70/30 to 80/20 golden sugar to darkest sugar ratio. This is what gets the best result for me for quicker turnaround beers like bitters. One or two months aging type of beers. I suggest starting with that and then try it and then evaluate if you would like to have it darker or lighter and then adjust accordingly. Please note that this is my personal approach. Others obviously have completely different approaches and that is fine too.

There are people far more informed than me on this subject, but it occurs that this approach might be consistent with how brewing was done historically in Britain. Brewers could have had proprietary sugar products. They also would have used whatever was on hand / available. Thoughts?

 

[user 246304]

If I'd be your neighbour the bread would spark my interest as well.

They look way better than my breads. I bake all my bread myself, started a sour dough years ago and keep on using that one. Just flour and water plus sometimes sun flower seeds. Spelt and rye in varying proportions.

But to be fair, I'm lazy so I optimised my baking routine just for time saving while keeping the taste as is. This involves baking inside of my mixing bowl, so no fancy shapes like you got there.

That's pretty slick! I have a mill at home built like a tank and outside of some "T 1050" and "T 1150" I buy from a good supplier, I mill my own rye, whole hard red winter and spring wheats, spelt, emmer, kamut and einkorn. I make several different grades of "schrot" (not true schrot, because they're just coarsely milled and not chopped) in all these as well. The workhorse sourdough I use is a TA 200 Roggen, though sometimes I also use Hefewasser and Lievito Madre.

 

[user 246304]

Those breads look stunning! Very good job! I used to bake bread back when I was a student, but nowadays I just buy it at the better bakeries.


I first found a recipe that used molasses, so I bought some of that in an organic store but it gave an incredibly strong liquorice flavour. I later found out that Theakston does all-grain nowadays, at least according to their website, so I adjusted Graham Wheeler's recipe a bit to the percentages I gave earlier and got to a very close flavour.

I bought Black Treacle in the UK in the meantime to be able to clone Fuller's Imperial Stout, which I loved back when they still produced it. It uses both Black Treacle and Ragus Invert No 3.

Sure, I'll link the second Theakston video below

Fantastic, many thanks! Looking forward to viewing your channel.

By the way, just another quick aside, but it always astounds me the level of mastery you two and my German and Austrian friends have of English. I have been studying German daily now for a bit over a year but your ability to speak so completely fluently puts me to shame.

All my life I'd thought I was French-blooded - in fact it's what set me on my course as a young kid to become fluent in French, and begin training in classic French cooking. I am French, but a few years ago, I found out that in fact most of my line can be traced to Baden-Württemberg - centuries, in fact, unbroken, in the area surrounding Lörrach. My wife has her EU citizenship (Estonian) and it's our hope to spend considerable time there, and with the many friends I've made in the German and Austrian baking community.

At any rate, you've such a beautiful country. Here's an homage to your north, a Friesisches Weißbrot. The recipe comes from my friend Dr. Björn Hollensteiner, aka "Der Brotdoc." Wonderful book, Heimatbrote: Traditionsreiche Brote aus dem eigenen Ofen mit Sauerteig, Vorteig & Co.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I gotta start baking again, we used to make a lot of sourdough bread a few years ago...

 

[DBhomebrew]

I gotta start baking again, we used to make a lot of sourdough bread a few years ago...

...as did we all.

 

[user 246304]

We'll trade, lads. You get baking again....and I'll get brewing again.

 

[Colindo]

@Gadjobrinus I had most of my studies completely in English with international students as colleagues, so for me speaking English is like a second nature. My one year old daughter gets mostly British bedtime stories etc. I did a semester in France but it takes several days for me to become fluent there, as I rarely use it during my everyday life.

If you'd like, we can chat in German via DM.

 

[user 246304]

View attachment 769407

Not quite the last, hopefully another half dozen pints to go.

This was my from first attempt at Big Lamp Bitter, a sort of fill-in brew after 5 months of inactivity, chosen because it was local brew I have drank, and a simple recipe with all ingredients to hand. It isn't an old recipe, first brewed in 1982, but still very much a run-of-the-mill British Bitter.

The recipe used is from Graham Wheeler's BYOBRA, with brew-length extended a little with some homemade invert #1 and #3, and a few extra hops to compensate for the extra volume.

View attachment 769408

Mine had 150 EBC crystal malt.

Sorry for the resurrections guys, playing catch up on many things as I am literally starting over on everything. Does anyone happen to know which edition this is? And Cire, or another, you reference a 1995 Wheeler & Protz book. Is this the same one?

This was the version I had btw.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

October 1998 edition get the third edition 2010.

 

[user 246304]

October 1998 edition get the third edition 2010.

Got it. Thanks.

 

[user 246304]

@Gadjobrinus I had most of my studies completely in English with international students as colleagues, so for me speaking English is like a second nature. My one year old daughter gets mostly British bedtime stories etc. I did a semester in France but it takes several days for me to become fluent there, as I rarely use it during my everyday life.

If you'd like, we can chat in German via DM.

I'm afraid I'm still A2 or so, so intimidated to say the least! Working on it and hope to get a much better fluency. Bummer - fluent in French as I was immersed in it from very young, but though I always wanted to learn German I put it off until I'm now in my 60's and it doesn't come along as easily, c'est la vie. So, hoping to improve. Until then, I'm afraid I converse like a child, lol.

 

[Miraculix]

I recently stumbled over this:

"Describe the German language in one sentence: The oposite of "umfahren" is "umfahren"."

.... the bad thing is... it is actually true .

 

[cire]

There are people far more informed than me on this subject, but it occurs that this approach might be consistent with how brewing was done historically in Britain. Brewers could have had proprietary sugar products. They also would have used whatever was on hand / available. Thoughts?

It might be thought so. The British regularly claim all our wars and associated borrowings are paid for by tax on beer.

As every brewer who has successfully incorporated sugars into their beers will know, it is easy to add a little more and get a little more. I don't know how beer is currently taxed in USA, but after the end of prohibition it was at a single rate, regardless of strength. In UK, since 1880, tax has been paid on the volume and gravity output of the mashtun. More recently, duty on weaker beers was reduced and those on stronger beers increased, and sugar can play a major part in stronger beer.

When sugar is for beer in Britain, it first has to be bonded, then dissolved in a vessel specifically for that purpose, together with full record. This shows the setup in one British brewery that still uses sugar. The blue bags contain 25kg blocks of Ragus invert, the tubs contain sugar syrups.

The following piece was by Graham Wheeler. Note his his experience of the Excise Man.

It is included in its entirety as Graham never minded his writings being quoted when in total context.

This beer contains 76% pale malt, 11% of 2 crystal malts and 13% of 2 home made inverts. The taste is luscious from the sugars on a firm malt base.