English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Colindo]

@cire Thanks for the detailed information. Are the quotes from the older versions of BYOBRA? The newest edition, which I own, pretty much ignores all sugar-related questions and in the recipes the sugar is aways given as white sugar with some black malt for colour. Tragedy that he did not write down which invert was used...

 

[cire]

I don't know where it is from, except it was in my sugar files on hard disk. I suspect it isn't from a publication, it doesn't seem to be written in the same style he used for his books. I said it was written by him because he and I had long conversations on the subject and it was his strongly held opinion.

Graham didn't quote the actual sugars for a couple of reasons, firstly that they were not readily available to homebrewers and secondly because many breweries wouldn't admit to using sugar. I did a bulk purchase of Ragus inverts 1, 2 and 3 some years ago from the wholesaler who managed their distribution, but they no longer offer those blocks, so I assume Ragus have taken that back inhouse. They were wonderful.

Graham and I knew one another, he was the younger. He told me had visited many breweries, but also many of his recipes came from Roger Protz. He had watched brewery deliveries, which included sugars to those who didn't admit to using them in their beers.

Graham is badly missed today, particularly as most information on British beers is from sources with no direct experience of how those were made.

Few historic beers are as simple as might be thought. Take this grain bill as an example.

 

[user 246304]

Edited as OT.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Got some sugar prepared for next weeks brew. Gonna invert it the night before brewing, plan is to heat to 80c, add 300mg/100g sugar at 80c, let it reach a simmer, add 150mg/100g sugar of soda and let it simmer 5-10 additional minutes.
White cane as base 50%, other half is 3/4 light muscovado and 1/4 dark muscovado.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Decided to cook up the sugar today instead. Got a few more minutes to boil, after and before adding soda.
Went with 5min simmer after adding acid at 80c, then simmering 15 more after adding soda.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

And the finished product. I boiled an additional 5 for a total of 20 after neutralising. Quite dark.
Will be used in a 1950's Lee's best mild inspired ale.

Crisp Vienna as base, 7%Crisp Brown, 6% Simpson Light Crystal, 12% invert 3
1.035 OG 20 IBU
Challenger as bittering and 1g/L Bramling X at 20 min left of boil.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Oh and some 30ml ~10000 ebc brewers caramel to get the color properly dark...

 

[cire]

Oh and some 30ml ~10000 ebc brewers caramel to get the color properly dark...

Yes, it will be necessary. I added 75ml of Brupaks invert to a 50 litre brew of Lee's Best mild from 1952 by Ron Pattinson after fermentation. The recipe by itself isn't dark enough.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Can admin split sugar from English ales please.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Why? It's a fairly integral part of English brewing so it is IMO very related to the topic.
Should we split discussions about maltsters and yeast from the main thread aswell?

 

[Colindo]

Has anyone tried making Brewer's caramel themselves? To what darkness should it be boiled? I read that in the beginning it was fairly pale, some 1000 EBC, but got subsequently darker and therefore with a much smaller flavour impact. I would aim for 1000, I guess.

Is it still sold in the UK, or no longer? I know some countries don't allow it because of the risk of carcinogenic side products.

 

[cire]

Can admin split sugar from English ales please.

I would have thought it unwise to discuss English, any British, Ales in a factual manner, were sugar to be excluded. Imagine excluding Timothy Taylor, Sam Smith, Harvey's, Adnams, Bateman's, Black Sheep, Boddington's, Burton Bridge, Camerons ....................................................................................Wadworth, Worthington, not mention every decent Dark Mild beer ever made.
Should we discuss Budweiser and never mention rice?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I think some UK brewshops have the really dark type, there are varieties, the basic variety e150(brewferm has it) wich is just burnt sugar in water solution and e150c/d where some chemical is added so it can be burnt harder/darker without carbonising.

The e150 is about 10000 ebc, I have a couple bottles of it while the e150c/d pushes 30000ebc.
Regarding making it at home it can be done but I think it's pretty time consuming and you must watch the sugar like a hawk once it starts burning.

Has anyone tried making Brewer's caramel themselves? To what darkness should it be boiled? I read that in the beginning it was fairly pale, some 1000 EBC, but got subsequently darker and therefore with a much smaller flavour impact. I would aim for 1000, I guess.

Is it still sold in the UK, or no longer? I know some countries don't allow it because of the risk of carcinogenic side products.

 

[cire]

Has anyone tried making Brewer's caramel themselves? To what darkness should it be boiled? I read that in the beginning it was fairly pale, some 1000 EBC, but got subsequently darker and therefore with a much smaller flavour impact. I would aim for 1000, I guess.

Is it still sold in the UK, or no longer? I know some countries don't allow it because of the risk of carcinogenic side products.

It was said some brewers stopped using caramel for that very reason.
It is still available.

How to make it.

Just noticed you are in Germany. No need to tell you how secretive brewers are about their processes.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

And I think that their testing concluded that e150c and d when mixed could form some carcinogenic compound, but you would have to consume absolutely ridiculous amounts of caramel to be at risk. So it is still allowed to use in food.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

It was said some brewers stopped using caramel for that very reason.
It is still available.

How to make it.

Just noticed you are in Germany. No need to tell you how secretive brewers are about their processes.

I think that link is a guide to make caramelised sugar for baking, but I think for caramel colour you just do the same thing but burn the sugar intentionally before adding a dash of water.

 

[cire]

I'd completely agree that the objective is caramel for baking. There must be point where it becomes suitable for coloring beer and hopefully before the pan is wrecked.

 

[Colindo]

I have this recipe from unholymess.com

I also bought black food colouring (says E150d in the ingredients list) to be able to compare, but I think everyone would agree the black colouring will be boring because it will not impart any flavour. The historic caramel is said to be 100% unfermentable sugar, so will round off the flavour a bit and give body. Read that somewhere on Ron's blog.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Then you have bought "brewers caramel" use sparingly because that stuff is DARK.
All caramel colour is unfermentable sugar as it is made of 100% caramellised sugar.

@patto1ro maybe the Guru himself might shed some light on wether caramel was less dark back in the day.

I'd make an educated guess that it likely has been very dark for quite awhile since they made it with ammonium compound even in the late 1800's

 

[Miraculix]

Guess what I'm going to do tonight?

 

[Miraculix]

I have this recipe from unholymess.com

I also bought black food colouring (says E150d in the ingredients list) to be able to compare, but I think everyone would agree the black colouring will be boring because it will not impart any flavour. The historic caramel is said to be 100% unfermentable sugar, so will round off the flavour a bit and give body. Read that somewhere on Ron's blog.

I was standing in front of the shelve with it in the supermarket yesterday as well. I think the d version is indeed the so called brewer's caramel. There's an interesting post about it in one of the German forums... Wait, let me fetch the link for you....

There you go: Brewers Caramel = Zuckercouleur? - Hobbybrauer.de

Isn't this stuff available in every country on the baker's shelve in the supermarkets?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

View attachment 834715
Guess what I'm going to do tonight?

Getting sloshed and eating syrup sandwiches?

 

[Miraculix]

Getting sloshed and eating syrup sandwiches?

You nailed it!


...going to be a quite invert heavy bitter. Nearly 17% by weight, not going to open the jar and then leave a rest in it standing in the cupboard waiting to be thrown away. It is advertised as a spread... who eats invertsirup with added glucose sirup on bread? I bought it at the local fancy shmancy supermarket, the normal one didn't stock it. Maybe this is what rich people eat? Maybe that is why I am middle class? I shall have a invertsirup sammich today! Everybody shall call me Sir tomorrow!

Fuggles and cascade as bittering hops, I do not have enough Goldings to cover for that (middle class...). Goldings at 15 minutes and probably also dry.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Sounds delicious! The beer that is.
I'm gonna keg my brown ale tonight or tomorrow, went from 1.046 to 1.012.
Note to self, amber malt though not very dark, seemingly produces no fermentable sugars in the mash.

Simpson GP and Crisp vienna 50/50 as base, 10% Simpson amber, 7% Simpson medium crystal, 2% Simpson chocolate and 10% invert 2. A table spoon of caramel in the boil.
The samples had a nice bready and toasted nuts flavour though.

 

[user 246304]

I think some UK brewshops have the really dark type, there are varieties, the basic variety e150(brewferm has it) wich is just burnt sugar in water solution and e150c/d where some chemical is added so it can be burnt harder/darker without carbonising.

The e150 is about 10000 ebc, I have a couple bottles of it while the e150c/d pushes 30000ebc.
Regarding making it at home it can be done but I think it's pretty time consuming and you must watch the sugar like a hawk once it starts burning.

Erik the e150 is Brewtherm and the e150c/d is Brupak then, is that right?

 

[user 246304]

It was said some brewers stopped using caramel for that very reason.
It is still available.

How to make it.

Just noticed you are in Germany. No need to tell you how secretive brewers are about their processes.

I'd thought caramel as commonly known or used in flan, etc., wasn't the same thing since this cooking caramel definitely lends a unique flavor. It's the same thing, just managed carefully into a much darker range?

 

[Miraculix]

I'd thought caramel as commonly known or used in flan, etc., wasn't the same thing since this cooking caramel definitely lends a unique flavor. It's the same thing, just managed carefully into a much darker range?

Yes!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Erik the e150 is Brewtherm and the e150c/d is Brupak then, is that right?

Correct, the chemically assisted ones are about 3x darker than the "natural" one.

 

[user 246304]

I think that link is a guide to make caramelised sugar for baking, but I think for caramel colour you just do the same thing but burn the sugar intentionally before adding a dash of water.

Sorry, hadn't read this yet. Wow, caramel for cooking is one thing but taking it to this stage seems nigh impossible to me. I wonder if a copper sugar pot would help.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Murphys offer the 33,000 EBC Caramel TMF which I think comes from Nigay in France who have a helpful page on the different kinds of caramel. I think that's the stuff that is packaged for homebrewers by Brewferm etc, and the Murphy data sheet confirms it's E150c which per Nigay is ammonia caramel and the version they recommend for beer. I've also seen a darker caramel FB-125 for dark beers which is EBC 42,000. Whereas Nigay recommend E150d for cola and petfood!!!