"crystals" on top of fruit addition to secondary.

[Johan Dingler]

Hello everyone!

First post. Sorry if it doesn't belongs to this board. I'm brewing a raspberry weizen, and after a week from throwing the raspberries into the fermentor a kind of salty crystals started forming on top of the fruit. I know them turning white is normal, but had never heard about the crystals before. The beer tastes and smells good, aside from a bit of astringency. Any thoughts? Is this normal?

Pic for reference with some of the crystals circled in red:
Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hi, welcome to HBT!

Would you be able to upload a higher resolution photo here? It looks like you have a pellicle forming, but I can't clearly see what you circled.

Use the "upload a file" button below.

 

[Miraculix]

I cannot really see it, but doesn't it look a bit like water kefir? A better picture would help clarifying...

 

[Johan Dingler]

Ok, thanks guys! Is this better?

 

[Miraculix]

It is! I assume you are referring to the flaky things? Bit like broken floating ice?

That's an infection. Can be anything from lactos, acetics to wild yeast or probably a mix of them.

Monitor closely once bottled as it might overcarbonate and drink fast to prevent it from turning bad. Refrigerate once carbonated.

 

[Johan Dingler]

It is! I assume you are referring to the flaky things? Bit like broken floating ice?

That's an infection. Can be anything from lactos, acetics to wild yeast or probably a mix of them.

Monitor closely once bottled as it might overcarbonate and drink fast to prevent it from turning bad. Refrigerate once carbonated.

Yikes. I'll need to throw away my plastic fermentor, right?

Also, how positive are you that it's an infection? Tried it just before taking this picture and it didn't taste sour.

 

[Miraculix]

Yikes. I'll need to throw away my plastic fermentor, right?

Also, how positive are you that it's an infection? Tried it just before taking this picture and it didn't taste sour.

100%.

An infection doesn't have to taste like something. It can develop over time. If you clean and sanitizer your fermenter properly, there's s good chance that it's still ok.

Oxygen ingress during fermentation, ie a loose or not airtight lid helps these bacterias to develop.

 

[Johan Dingler]

100%.

An infection doesn't have to taste like something. It can develop over time. If you clean and sanitizer your fermenter properly, there's s good chance that it's still ok.

Oxygen ingress during fermentation, ie a loose or not airtight lid helps these bacterias to develop.

Ok! Thank you! I guess its my fault, read mixed opinions on whether to let the fruit simmer on almost boiling water prior to pitching it or throwing it into the fermentor as is, and went with the second option. It was a package of frozen raspberries, supposedly sanitized by the packager!! Thought the environment in the fermented beer would be too hostile for any wild yeasts and bacteria on the fruit to develop anyway. Guess I was wrong!!

 

[Leezer]

You could also try soaking them in vodka first next time, that's my usual method when adding fruit to the fermenter. And for a recent raspberry wheat I soaked the berries in Chambord instead.

 

[Johan Dingler]

You could also try soaking them in vodka first next time, that's my usual method when adding fruit to the fermenter. And for a recent raspberry wheat I soaked the berries in Chambord instead.

Thanks! That sounds more appealing than warming them up. For how long do you soak them?

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks! That sounds more appealing than warming them up. For how long do you soak them?

Some also soak them in star San .... But I wouldn't.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I recommend heat pasteurization: bring the fruit to 140-150F for 20-30 minutes. Stir constantly while heating.

Soaking them in alcohol is not guaranteed to kill all the microbes.

+1 you should be able to clean the fermenter (and bottling equipment, and bottles, etc).

 

[Leezer]

Thanks! That sounds more appealing than warming them up. For how long do you soak them?

A few days at least. Sometimes more just because I get busy and don't have time to add the fruit to the fermenter when I had planned. A friend came up with a formula to determine how much alchohol to use for the amount of fruit at hand. I'd have to look at my notes at home to refresh my memory on that part.

 

[day_trippr]

I recently did a raspberry wheat with a pound per gallon of frozen berries I turned into puree with a 12 hour pectinase rest at 60°C - which is handy as it was sufficient to pasteurize at the same time. Kegged it over the weekend, no sign of any issues - and already tasted fantastic!

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

12 hour pectinase rest at 60°C

Is this a thing?

 

[Yooper]

The fruit was probably ok- it’s the oxygen in the headspace that allowed the infection. If the fruit was submerged or otherwise not in contact that long with air, it would probably have been ok.

I’m a winemaker, and when I use fruit it’s early in fermentation and the wine is stirred every day to break up any ‘cap’ that forms. Adding fruit late in beer is fine, but I would suggest adding it in a bag or something and keeping it submerged. Or do it for a shorter time period.

 

[RPh_Guy]

it’s the oxygen in the headspace that allowed the infection.

I'm a winemaker

This advice applies to wine... but not so much to beer.

Beer can be contaminated with wild yeast that causes further attenuation (potentially causing gushing or bottle bombs) and phenolic off-flavors, and it can be contaminated with bacteria that cause souring. None of these microbes need oxygen, and these microbes don't affect wine in the same manner.

 

[day_trippr]

Is this a thing?

Not sure, but I did a crapton of research on reducing pectins in raspberries to enhance yield, the best pectic enzyme to use (who knew there are different types?) and the time/temperature to run it. And that's where I ended up. By the time it was ready for the fermentors the seeds were just falling out of their pulpy coatings. It was serendipity that the enzyme is happy in a temperature that kills bugs given enough time.

Should be ready to put on tap in a week or so. Really keen to see how it turns out but as I said the sample was highly encouraging...

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Not sure, but I did a crapton of research on reducing pectins in raspberries to enhance yield, the best pectic enzyme to use (who knew there are different types?) and the time/temperature to run it. And that's where I ended up. By the time it was ready for the fermentors the seeds were just falling out of their pulpy coatings. It was serendipity that the enzyme is happy in a temperature that kills bugs given enough time.

Should be ready to put on tap in a week or so. Really keen to see how it turns out but as I said the sample was highly encouraging...

Cheers!

That's cool. I think I did hear of that technique before; but my memory is a little fuzzy.
I did know that "pectinase enzyme" products are actually a mix of various enzymes and so every product is different and they work better or worse on different things. Seems like a crap shoot.

 

[Johan Dingler]

Not sure, but I did a crapton of research on reducing pectins in raspberries to enhance yield, the best pectic enzyme to use (who knew there are different types?) and the time/temperature to run it. And that's where I ended up. By the time it was ready for the fermentors the seeds were just falling out of their pulpy coatings. It was serendipity that the enzyme is happy in a temperature that kills bugs given enough time.

Should be ready to put on tap in a week or so. Really keen to see how it turns out but as I said the sample was highly encouraging...

Cheers!

Any tips on reducing astringency in a raspberry beer? When I tasted it after a week of pitching the fruit, it was not horrible but quite astringent. Some brewers have told me this will fade out with time, probably by the end of this week it'll be nice. But idk. What do you think?

 

[day_trippr]

Ask me in about a week. I only tasted a small flat kegging sample so far, but first impressions did not include astringency...

Cheers!

 

[bucketnative]

That's cool. I think I did hear of that technique before; but my memory is a little fuzzy.
I did know that "pectinase enzyme" products are actually a mix of various enzymes and so every product is different and they work better or worse on different things. Seems like a crap shoot.

Enzymes provide a lower energy barrier for specific chemical reactions to proceed (under conditions at which they would normally proceed very slowly). Like any other chemical reaction, the rate is dependent upon temperature. From what I have read, most pectinases are stable around pH 4.0 and have maximum reaction rates around 50 °C. Here's an interesting paper on one specific pectinase extracted from a fungus ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5153499/ ). Figures 3 and 5 are most applicable to this discussion. And, they found that purity mattered in terms of those ranges of stability.

 

[Johan Dingler]

Follow up. Looks and tastes amazing. Gonna bottle tomorrow and drink fast before it spoils I Im liking the wild side, should i use this bucket for sours? Bought another fermenter anyway, just in case. Or is plastic not recommended for doing long term sours?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Or is plastic not recommended for doing long term sours?

Plastic is fine. However it's best to use vessels with a spigot for sampling and vessels that reliably seal air-tight (and many buckets do not). I recommend Fermonsters.

 

[Johan Dingler]

Plastic is fine. However it's best to use vessels with a spigot for sampling and vessels that reliably seal air-tight (and many buckets do not). I recommend Fermonsters.

Can you use a wine thief instead of spigot? I really hate spigots in fermenters

 

[RPh_Guy]

Every time you open the lid of a fermenter, the headspace fills with air. This is undesirable for all types of beer and wine.

Why do you hate spigots? They provide a lot of advantages.

 

[Johan Dingler]

Every time you open the lid of a fermenter, the headspace fills with air. This is undesirable for all types of beer and wine.

Why do you hate spigots? They provide a lot of advantages.

Im always paranoid there're sneaky bugs hidden in there.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You could boil it if you wanted, but frankly that's not needed if you use a good cleaning regimen and disassemble it between batches for cleaning and sanitizing. Plus they're only $4 a piece so you could replace it whenever. On the other hand every time you open the bucket there's a significant contamination risk because air is full of wild microbes.

Personally I find the convenience factor and oxidation reduction to be well worth the increased effort cleaning it. If you don't, that's fine too. Something to think about.

 

[day_trippr]

Any tips on reducing astringency in a raspberry beer? When I tasted it after a week of pitching the fruit, it was not horrible but quite astringent. Some brewers have told me this will fade out with time, probably by the end of this week it'll be nice. But idk. What do you think?

I've been drinking this all evening - really should wait a few more days for a full carb but it's too tasty not to drink now

It's a raspberry bomb with just a hint of "tea" from the hibiscus. No astringency, no bite. It's dry (8 point FG), ~5% ABV, but has a light residual sweetness that rides under the huge raspberry character that is fetching - honest, I'm passing on my Julius and Juicy Bits neipa clones for this pink concoction

As this is my first raspberry wheat all I can say is what I did: 9 pounds of frozen berries, thawed then warmed with a quart of hibiscus tea made with four ounces of dried flowers and a 20 minute steep. Then I mixed in a teaspoon of pectic enzyme, brought the whole thing to 140°F and kept it there for 12 hours (actually not hard - that stuff held heat quite well with a bath towel wrapped around the big pot with an occasional re-heating). Then added it to 9 gallons of 60 point american wheat beer. Let it sit for four days then crashed and kegged, then two weeks cold carbonating on the way to 3 volumes (it's not quite there yet, feels like 2.5)...

Cheers!

 

[Johan Dingler]

I've been drinking this all evening - really should wait a few more days for a full carb but it's too tasty not to drink now

View attachment 670535

It's a raspberry bomb with just a hint of "tea" from the hibiscus. No astringency, no bite. It's dry (8 point FG), ~5% ABV, but has a light residual sweetness that rides under the huge raspberry character that is fetching - honest, I'm passing on my Julius and Juicy Bits neipa clones for this pink concoction

As this is my first raspberry wheat all I can say is what I did: 9 pounds of frozen berries, thawed then warmed with a quart of hibiscus tea made with four ounces of dried flowers and a 20 minute steep. Then I mixed in a teaspoon of pectic enzyme, brought the whole thing to 140°F and kept it there for 12 hours (actually not hard - that stuff held heat quite well with a bath towel wrapped around the big pot with an occasional re-heating). Then added it to 9 gallons of 60 point american wheat beer. Let it sit for four days then crashed and kegged, then two weeks cold carbonating on the way to 3 volumes (it's not quite there yet, feels like 2.5)...

Cheers!

Looks amazing!!! I'm gonna re-do my raspberry wheat this saturday. Gonna follow your steps when it's time for the fruit additions.

Do you drain the raspberries after the pectic enzyme rest? Or throw all the water and the raspberries into the fermentor?

Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

Everything went in the carboys, 10 days post pitch, along with a 1/2 cup of corn sugar in each. Within a few hours there was a 3" thick pink krausen happening.

Four days later I cold-crashed it for four days to try to compact the amazing mass of raspberry skins but I still left a good three quarts of "stuff" behind in each fermentor, so instead of 10 gallons in the kegs I ended up around 8-1/2 gallons. You can see the pre-crashed mass here:

It didn't compact much, probably because it's comprised of bazillions of tiny almost clear raspberry skins.
I'll go through my recipe to adjust for that loss as short of a centrifuge I don't think much goodness could be recovered from it...

Cheers!

 

[Johan Dingler]

Everything went in the carboys, 10 days post pitch, along with a 1/2 cup of corn sugar in each. Within a few hours there was a 3" thick pink krausen happening.

Four days later I cold-crashed it for four days to try to compact the amazing mass of raspberry skins but I still left a good three quarts of "stuff" behind in each fermentor, so instead of 10 gallons in the kegs I ended up around 8-1/2 gallons. You can see the pre-crashed mass here:

View attachment 670562


It didn't compact much, probably because it's comprised of bazillions of tiny almost clear raspberry skins.
I'll go through my recipe to adjust for that loss as short of a centrifuge I don't think much goodness could be recovered from it...

Cheers!

What do you think of everything going into a nylon mesh bag and then throwing the bag into the fermentor? Do you think that would work and also reduce the amount of lost beer?

 

[day_trippr]

Tough to do with a carboy, and in any case removing the bag to leave the beer behind would introduce mass quantities of O2.
It's much more important to me to maximize shelf life than yield.
Having an extra couple/few quarts of oxidized beer is no win...

Cheers!

 

[Johan Dingler]

Update, yall! Second try on this brew. This time it turned out amazing!!!

The only thing i would change is that it dried A LOT!!! (fg 1.009) Used Safale wb-06, and I was just reading that its diastatic, which explains the dryness... Any yeast suggestions to fix this?? I love the esters wb-06 left, and the yeast character overall. Any ideas for a yeast with similar character but that will leave more body in my beer??

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Did you decide it's lacking body after you checked the FG? It's easy for the mind to play tricks on you if you believe FG equates body (which it doesn't).

 

[Johan Dingler]

Did you decide it's lacking body after you checked the FG? It's easy for the mind to play tricks on you if you believe FG equates body (which it doesn't).

No, it was the other way around. And some brewers have made the same comment without me having to tell them anything about the FG. However, I have to admit that in my mind body and residual sweetness go pretty much hand in hand, so maybe a more precise way to put it is that i'd like a tiny bit more residual sweetness? Still trying to master all this brewer vocabulary haha!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Gotcha.

Lallemand Munich Classic would be a good dry yeast alternative and it should have similar character to WB-06, though not quite the same. It won't attenuate so high.

If you're looking for more of a classic Weihenstephaner hefeweizen (weissbier) flavor, liquid yeast is the way to go: WLP300 or WY3068.

Water profile is another way to control perceived sweetness, and a bit of crystal malt like CaraHell can also add sweetness.

 

[Johan Dingler]

Gotcha.

Lallemand Munich Classic would be a good dry yeast alternative and it should have similar character to WB-06, though not quite the same. It won't attenuate so high.

If you're looking for more of a classic Weihenstephaner hefeweizen (weissbier) flavor, liquid yeast is the way to go: WLP300 or WY3068.

Water profile is another way to control perceived sweetness, and a bit of crystal malt like CaraHell can also add sweetness.

Thank you for your insights! I'm gonna read a bit into your suggestions and try to adjust my recipe!

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I'm not trying to get off topic, but raspberry is a strong flavor. In other words, doesn't take much raspberry.

Kegging or bottling the finished brew?

 

[Johan Dingler]

I'm not trying to get off topic, but raspberry is a strong flavor. In other words, doesn't take much raspberry.

Kegging or bottling the finished brew?

Bottled it. And I agree, it is strong! I used about 2 pounds for a 5 gal batch, and I think that was just about the right amount. It's pure raspberry to the nose, with some estery notes subtly showing up. To the taste, it's the other way around, a weizen with hints of raspberry. I like it.