Persistent infection problem

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Agrippina

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Hi all,

This is my first time posting here so please forgive me if this is in the wrong place, or if there are better threads that answer these issues.

I am a somewhat experienced brewer. I have brewed at least 30+ batches with no problems, in a wide variety of ale styles (stouts, porters, pales, belgians, scotch ales, etc). At this point I have a good idea of what the beer I'm making is supposed to taste like, and how certain yeast strains impart flavor.

About a year and a half ago, I got an infection in a Belgian ale, I think from the sugar addition I put into the primary, roughly 4 days into fermentation. I had always put sugar syrups in at this time to not overload the yeast at the start, and had not had any problems up until this point. My sugarmaking process entails heating up cane sugar to roughly 280 degrees with DAP, which then goes into a mason jar I had sterilized with boiling water previously. For this batch I had neglected to sanitize the spoon I scooped the sugar out of the jar, and I think this is where the infection came from. Before I put the sugar in, I took a gravity reading and tasted the beer, thinking it was an interesting take on the recipe (the brew store was out of a bulk of the grains I normally used and I had to make a bunch of substitutions). A week after the sugar addition during racking to the secondary, it tasted horrible, incredibly soured tart flavor that overpowered literally every other flavor.

Since then, I have thrown out my siphon, tubing, bottling wand and bottling spigot, as well as bought new plastic fermenters. I've had issues with infections ever since. Out of the last 10 batches I've made in the last year, only 3 haven't had issues. Some have the overpowering tart/sour taste that completely drowns out everything else, others have a strong vinegar taste, with the taste of proper beer noticeable, but just barely. I'm at my wits end and probably going to give this up as a hobby if I cant figure out something.

When cleaning my equipment at the end of the last batch I bottled, I noticed some blackish smudge on one of the washers on my bottling spigot. I believe my last two batches got infected during the bottling stage, and I strongly suspect this is the culprit. I plan to throw out my bottling bucket, bottling wand, spigot, siphon and tube and buy additional ones. I'm not sure if I should also throw out my plastic fermentation buckets.

At this point I have probably read every infection thread on the internet multiple times and cannot figure out solutions on why these problems keep reoccurring after discarding my equipment previously. My process, brewing, fermentation and storage locations have not changed since I was able to produce good beer.

Virtually all the threads on the internet say something along the lines of infections are caused by poor sanitation. Before I rack and bottle, everything that touches the beer gets soaked in PBW, rinsed, then soaked in Starsan. For the bottles themselves, they all get submerged in Starsan, drained, then filled with the beer.

At this point I have several questions:

- how airbourne are infectious bacteria? Ie, if I have an infected washer on a bottling spigot, would it be able to infect a bucket that is stored 10 feet away? Likewise, would an infected bucket infect another bucket that is a few feet away? Could an infection transfer onto the shelf that I'm storing things on?
- while I suspect infections are taking place during the bottling stage in these last few cases due to the beer tasting fine during the bottling process and taking on vinegary hues 3-4 weeks after bottling, I'm not 100% of this. What are the chances the beer has been infected in the primary and somehow laying dormant and not quite manifesting itself until weeks into the fermantation/aging process? In the case of that Belgian mentioned above that I know was infected in the primary, I could taste it right away. But some people say that infections don't always manifest themselves that quickly
- could the environment itself be infecting my equipment? I store all my brewing stuff in my attic on the same plastic shelving unit
- I boil and cool uncovered, both outside. I've heard some people suggest fruit flies are a source of infection, but I have never seen them, and I try to do most of my brewing in the winter, as I like to seasonally brew as to avoid using things like swamp coolers. Should I be covering during the cooldown process?
- Likewise, my bottling bucket is uncovered while bottling. Should a lid go on top after everything gets transferred in the bottling bucket?
- When I make my priming solution, I boil roughly 100 g of sugar in storebought spring water in a covered pot for roughly 15 minutes. While I clean the pot beforehand, I've never sanitized it, as I always assumed that having something at a boil for 15 minutes would kill any bacteria in the sugar, and that the temperature would be enough to sterilize the pot and lid. Is this an incorrect assumption? Should I be sanitizing the pot as well before I boil the sugar?
- Likewise, I'm assuming that putting sugar syrup additions a few days into the primary is now a Bad Idea, and it should be put in the boil to avoid possible infections at this stage. Other people seem to not have problems, but I assume the less infection points the better?

Any input would be appreciated. It sucks to have to punishment drink 50 sour beers when they should be delicious porters.
 
Hey man, bummer about the contamination :(
Hope we can help sort this out.

Before I address your questions, I notice a couple things:
1. You are using a secondary. That's generally not good, especially when dealing with a contamination issue.
2. Smudge in your bottling bucket? I highly recommend to break apart all spigots and clean/sanitize them between uses. Remove all the washers. The part that turns should also be removable.

You are not rinsing away the StarSan, correct? Have to ask.
Have you sanitized your bottle drying rack?
Have you tested the diluted Star San pH?
Double check to make sure you've looked at all possible vectors:
What kind of wort chiller do you use and how do you sanitize it?
How do you aerate the wort and how do you sanitize that tool?
Do you make starters and how do you ensure they're sanitized?
How do you draw samples for hydrometer readings and do you dump those?
Have you replaced stoppers and airlocks?
Same for tubing, wand, and spigots.
How do you store/sanitize bottle caps?
Are you breaking apart the bottling wand for sanitizing?

You aren't scrubbing the plastic, right? I've sure you've read scrubbing may cause abrasions where microbes can hide.

how airbourne are infectious bacteria?
Airborne enough to be a concern. In your situation I would definitely be cleaning the storage area and brewing/bottling area with bleach wipes, Lysol spray, HEPA filter vacuum, etc. However, I think it's much more likely your equipment is harboring a culture. There are lots of things that touch the beer, and unless you replaced everything cold-side all at once, one piece may have transferred the contamination to other pieces.
What are the chances the beer has been infected in the primary and somehow laying dormant and not quite manifesting itself until weeks into the fermantation/aging process?
Definitely possible it was dormant. Oxygen is required for vinegar formation, so oxygen exposure during bottling might have revealed an existing contamination.
could the environment itself be infecting my equipment?
Yes, but unlikely. Wild microbes are everywhere; every single one of us uses equipment exposed to a large variety of microbes, and brew in a non-sterile environment. In fact probably all of our brews are contaminated to some extent, just not at detectable levels. Cleaning and sanitation practices should be able to prevent significant contamination despite environmental factors.
Despite that, it's always best to keep things as clean as possible. Try to minimize dirt or insects coming into contact with your equipment during storage.
Should I be covering during the cooldown process?
Absolutely! There's a huge amount of wild microbes floating around out there!
Should a lid go on top after everything gets transferred in the bottling bucket?
Unnecessary, unless there are insects.
Should I be sanitizing the pot as well before I boil the sugar?
No, boiling that long will sanitize. FWIW I put mine in a sanitized glass measuring cup and microwave it to bring to a boil.
I assume the less infection points the better?
Sure. I think adding sugar at the beginning is fine -- it worked for my tripel, and lots of other people say it works. However, I'm not convinced the sugar addition was the root of the problem, and there's no way to know. I wouldn't blame yourself.

So, in your shoes, here's what I recommend:
1. First we want to minimize prolonged air exposure.
Put the lid halfway on the kettle for the last 5-15 minutes of the boil, and/or hit it with some sanitizer. Cover the kettle while cooling.
2. Next we want to minimize equipment coming into contact with the beer. I'll describe my ideal setup for this and you decide whether you want to buy new or use what you have. Don't throw away anything yet, though.
On brew day, chill the wort with a sanitized chiller, in the covered kettle.
Hit the kettle spigot with a bit of Star San before putting on the hose.
Transfer the wort to the sanitized fermenter using a hose. Silicone is great because it can be boiled to sanitize.
For the fermenter I would use a ported bucket or ported PET fermenter. The spigot should attach a bottling wand.
Boil the stopper & airlock if possible or replace.
Sanitize the yeast package and scissors and direct pitch.
Stir to aerate with a sanitized spoon, or alternately use a new hose attachment that sprays when you transfer into the fermenter.
Leave it in primary during fermentation.
When it's done, bottle directly from the fermenter with a bottling wand. Use sugar cubes or make your own sugar solution.

If possible, run your bottles through the dishwasher to heat sanitize (just to be sure), before using star san on bottling day.

Here's what potentially touched the beer cold side for my minimalist process: 1 hose, 1 simple aeration tool, fermenter, lid, spigot and washers, stopper, airlock, yeast packet, scissors, bottling wand, bottles, caps.

If this works to prevent contamination, start adding back equipment and see what happens.
 
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Thanks for the advice - answering some questions:

"You are using a secondary. That's generally not good, especially when dealing with a contamination issue." - Would you recommend bottle after 1 week when I normally rack? Or three weeks in the primary for the time I usually bottle?

"Smudge in your bottling bucket? I highly recommend to break apart all spigots and clean/sanitize them between uses. Remove all the washers. The part that turns should also be removable." - It was on the washer the attaches the spigot. I have no idea how it got there as I disassembled the spigot, submerged in PBW, then in Starsan before each use.

"You are not rinsing away the StarSan, correct? Have to ask." No, I'm not rinsing the Starsan.

"Have you sanitized your bottle drying rack?" I don't use one. Cleaned bottles get submerged in Starstan for 10-15 min, emptied, then filled with beer. I don't think it would necessarily be infected bottles, as I think I would see cases where some are infected and some not.

"Have you tested the diluted Star San pH?" - No, but I assume this would be easy and cheap enough to do. I'm using the recommended diluation as per the label. Everything gets submerged for at least 15 minutes, in the case of the fermenter usually about an hour and a half.

"What kind of wort chiller do you use and how do you sanitize it?" Copper tube immersion. It gets scrubbed before use and submerged in Starsan for roughly an hour and a half.

"How do you aerate the wort and how do you sanitize that tool?" No tool, just pour the beer from kettle into primary, pitch yeast, cover with lid and shake a bit.

"Do you make starters and how do you ensure they're sanitized?" Only for stronger beers - less than 50% of the batches I do. I buy storebought water, and fill one of the gallon jugs with Starsan. Boiled DME gets transferred into here by a funnel which had been soaking in Starsan. Yeast gets pitched the same way with sanitized scissors.

"How do you draw samples for hydrometer readings and do you dump those?" - Siphon which had been submerged in Starsan into a glass. After I take the reading, I drink it to assess the taste.

"Have you replaced stoppers and airlocks?" Airlocks and bucket lids yes, I don't think I've replaced the rubber bungs that go into the glass carboys.

"Same for tubing, wand, and spigots." All have been replaced. I think I'm on my fourth tube.

"How do you store/sanitize bottle caps?" Bottlecaps are stored on a shelf in a plastic bag. On bottling day they get submerged in Starsan before capped.

"Are you breaking apart the bottling wand for sanitizing?" I wasn't, but would be a good idea. I just took it apart and it comes open rather easily, unlike the first model of wand I had which was just one piece.

"You aren't scrubbing the plastic, right? I've sure you've read scrubbing may cause abrasions where microbes can hide." Correct, not scubbing the plastic. There aren't any clear scratches, that I can see anyways. I currently have two plastic fermenters that I bought recently, both have less than three batches in each.

"However, I think it's much more likely your equipment is harboring a culture." - I agree this is more likely than airborne. Like I noted, the equipment has been stored in the same place for a good 3+ years before infections started to set in, and nothing about the environment has changed. No insects, as far as I can tell, anyways.

"For the fermenter I would use a ported bucket or ported PET fermenter. The spigot should attach a bottling wand." This is a good idea. Something like this: https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Ported_6.5_Gallon_Fermenting_Bucket_Kit.html ? The spigot on this seems really high, what would you do to drain it? Tilt it on its side?

"Boil the stopper & airlock if possible or replace." Boil? Wouldn't this melt them?

"Sanitize the yeast package and scissors and direct pitch." This is what I do - I preferred the old White Labs test tube style where you could just shake it and throw it in and not need scissors.

"Transfer the wort to the sanitized fermenter using a hose. Silicone is great because it can be boiled to sanitize... Stir to aerate with a sanitized spoon, or alternately use a new hose attachment that sprays when you transfer into the fermenter." As noted above, I just pour from the kettle to the fermenter. No aeration devices. I've not had a problem with aeration for fermentation.

"If possible, run your bottles through the dishwasher to heat sanitize (just to be sure), before using star san on bottling day." I don't have a dishwasher, but I assume in the oven at 250 would do the same thing? I've heard that the oven can weaken the integrity of glass, is there any truth to this?
 
Would you recommend bottle after 1 week when I normally rack? Or three weeks in the primary for the time I usually bottle?
Leave in primary. The cake will not hurt the beer. I promise.
I don't think it would necessarily be infected bottles, as I think I would see cases where some are infected and some not.
I agree. Just trying to cover all the bases.
"Have you tested the diluted Star San pH?" - No, but I assume this would be easy and cheap enough to do. I'm using the recommended diluation as per the label. Everything gets submerged for at least 15 minutes, in the case of the fermenter usually about an hour and a half.
If you have particularly alkaline tap water, your Star San solution may be ineffective. It's worth checking at this point, in my opinion. The pH should be under 3.0.
Copper tube immersion. It gets scrubbed before use and submerged in Starsan for roughly an hour and a half.
Standard procedure is to put the IC in the kettle for the last 10 minutes of the boil to heat sanitize it.
I don't think I've replaced the rubber bungs that go into the glass carboys.
Something to consider. They're cheap. Or boil it.

...
The spigot on this seems really high, what would you do to drain it? Tilt it on its side?
Wow, that isn't a good location for a port.
Here's what I use:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/fermonster-carboy-7-gal-spigot.html
A bucket with a reasonable spigot would be OK:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/plastic-bucket-6-gal-spigot.html
This spigot is good:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/plastic-spigot-bucket-sediment-block.html
And fits directly into this wand:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/bottle-filler-removable-spring-38.html (comes apart)

Screenshot_20190102-232212.png

Jeez, are they going out of business or just having a massive bucket shortage? They're all out of stock.

"Boil the stopper & airlock if possible or replace." Boil? Wouldn't this melt them?
Rubber and silicone can be boiled. I use waterless silicone airlocks.
Don't boil a plastic airlock of course. It's probably PP, which will deform.
I've heard that the oven can weaken the integrity of glass, is there any truth to this?
Yeah, depending on glass quality... I wouldn't put them in the oven. Don't worry about heat sanitizing the bottles.

The rest of your answers sound OK.
Hope I've provided some things to try that will help put this behind you.
Happy to answer any other questions.
 
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Just want to throw it out there since I did not see it mentioned, if you are using an auto siphon are you storing the pieces separated from each other? A long time ago I was a victim of storing it as 1 piece and had a similar issue to you, I know you replaced it but if you stored it together it can easily get infected.
 
Thanks both for taking the time to respond. I was storing the autosiphon as one piece, but it didn't occur to me to store it separately. However, if I ferment and bottle directly from the same vessel, it should bypass the need for an autosiphon alltogether.

Is there any functional difference between just fermenting in a bottling bucket, vs what is billed as a ported fermenter?

When would you recommend bottling? When it hits FG in roughly a week for ~1.050 OG beers? Or should I leave it in there for about three weeks, which is roughly the time I had it in a primary + secondary before bottling?

Additionally, when adding the sugar directly to a spigoted fermenter, does it need to be stirred in? Before when racking into a bottling bucket, I'd add the sugar on the bottom and put the beer on top to ensure that the sugar gets evenly mixed in and certain bottles don't end up overcarbonated while others get undercarbonated. Is this an issue with adding the sugar on top of the beer at all?

I'll certainly test the pH of Starsan next time I brew. In the event that its not under 3.0, I assume I would just have to use it in a higher quantity?
 
I very highly doubt that it was an unsanitized spoon scooping sugar that was to be boiled was your original issue.
You seem to have your sanitizing procedures down, and have replaced everything a few times and haven't had a change. At this point, I would sit down and think about everything that goes into and touches your beer, at least post boil. Anything that gets boiled should be clean enough - those temps kill anything that can harm it. Fermenting, racking, bottling. There may be something that you're missing.
I;m presuming your priming is clear as well - boil the sugar and water for a few minutes then add it in?
That's this only other thing I didn't notice if you mentioned.

As far as the last question, your beer generally will tell you when it's ready. If you're that sort, take gravity readings after major fermentation is done. Take another 3 days later, and if it's the same, you're good. Personally, I leave my beer in primary for about 2 and a half weeks untouched, check the gravity, and then second check in prep for bottling at 3 weeks. I used to check all the time, and I noticed that if I ran out of time to do things and had to leave it longer, my beer ended up better. I've left it as long as 4 weeks in primary. THings weren't done yet. THe only time I secondary is if I'm leaving it to bulk age for a long time, like souring, fruit or wood. I use ale pails for primary and glass for secondary.
 
All great suggestions from RPh. I just want to add a little something. Starsan is not necessarily the end-all, be-all sanitizer that we mostly seem to think it is. It's good, but there are organisms that can resist the low pH that is the mechanism of it's action. Try switching sanitizers to a povidone iodine(I'm drawing a blank on brand names) occasionally. And as a nuclear option on the equipment that you don't throw out, do a bleach bomb, rinse it well, then sanitize.
 
I'm basing above on my experience this past year. I got an infection in some of my beers. I believe it was during the bottling process and demonstrated as an increased carbonation (sometimes with gushers) and an off-taste (to me it was a Belgian yeast type taste, maybe Brett?). Happened 2-3 months after bottling. I did get a new auto siphon, but my bottling bucket I treated with a bleach bomb and soaking the spigot parts in diluted bleach. Then used the iodine sanitizer for the next couple of batches before switching back to starsan. Problem solved. I do use the iodine on occasion as a switch-up.
 
if you are using an auto siphon are you storing the pieces separated from each other?
I make sure mine is dry then I put it back together in one piece for storage. I don't see how that increases contamination risk.
Is there any functional difference between just fermenting in a bottling bucket, vs what is billed as a ported fermenter?
If the lid is air tight, there's no difference.
When would you recommend bottling?
You can bottle as soon as it reaches FG, or you can wait a few weeks weeks for it to clear and "clean up". There's no right or wrong answer. I've bottled in 5 days and the beer is great.
Additionally, when adding the sugar directly to a spigoted fermenter, does it need to be stirred in? Before when racking into a bottling bucket, I'd add the sugar on the bottom and put the beer on top to ensure that the sugar gets evenly mixed in and certain bottles don't end up overcarbonated while others get undercarbonated. Is this an issue with adding the sugar on top of the beer at all?
When bottling direct from the fermenter, you need to prime bottles individually. Sorry, I should have made that clear.
Some folks use sugar cubes, others make a sugar solution and dose with a syringe.

FYI There's also an advanced technique whereby you bottle before fermentation completes, with just enough residual sugar to carbonate. You'd need to do a fast fermentation test (FFT) to determine the eventual FG and the gravity needed at bottling. The goal with this approach is minimizing oxidation.
I'll certainly test the pH of Starsan next time I brew. In the event that its not under 3.0, I assume I would just have to use it in a higher quantity?
You would probably want to use different water, or perhaps you could add phosphoric acid to drop pH. I would not increase the concentration of Star San.
It's good, but there are organisms that can resist the low pH that is the mechanism of it's action.
Star San isn't just an acid wash. The DBSA is antimicrobial, hence why it's listed as an active ingredient.

I know there are different opinions on sanitizers, but no real scientific comparison of effectiveness AFAIK. Star San has been highly effective for me. I use the same bottling equipment for mixed fermentation sours, wild ferments, and clean beer. Star San is also recommended by the Milk the Funk group, which specializes in wild fermentation.
Of course there's nothing wrong with iodophor / io star if you want to use it.
A dilute bleach + vinegar solution can also be used as a no-rinse sanitizer (1oz of each per 5 gal). Don't mix directly; chlorine gas is bad. No, there's no danger of bleach aroma/taste because the amount is so small.

Regards
 
I make sure mine is dry then I put it back together in one piece for storage. I don't see how that increases contamination risk.
Regards

Your creating an environment that the moisture cannot escape that rubber seal at the bottom will become open to infection and the environment will be prone to harboring nasties. Even if you dry it condensation is still a factor and can easily occur. I have had this happen to me it sucked and cost me a lot of beer and time granted the siphon was roughly 3 years old but I learned a lesson I will never forget
 
I have had this happen to me it sucked and cost me a lot of beer and time granted the siphon was roughly 3 years old but I learned a lesson I will never forget
Fair enough! Thanks for explaining.

Mine is still open to air at both ends when it's in one piece. The cane is open at the top and the valve is open at the bottom. I rarely use it though since all my fermenters for beer have spigots.
 
Thanks all for the advice. I'm going to try another batch in a few weeks with reduced setup and see how it goes.
 
I was just posting on an IPA thread about how I've been having issue myself for nearly a year now. All my IPAs, APAs, and blondes have had this off flavor that I can only call homebrew-y and have been overcarbed with acidic bite and less malt backbone than I used to get in the past. I'm not getting any of those tell-tale sour flavors at all, but it does sort of taste like I brewed everything with a Belgian yeast (despite the fact I'm using London Ale yeast). Someone said it sounded like a pervasive infection somewhere and I'm thinking is sounds similar to your issue. I am going to do my next batch going straight from my boil kettle to a new bucket with as little equipment used as possible. If that beer comes out good its time to start looking at all my cold side stuff...again. I like you have replaced my tubing, bottling wand, bottling bucket, etc. (basically all my cold side stuff save my fermenter) and it is maddening.

From what you've said, though, it seems like you definitely have a grasp on correct sanitation practices, so keep at it.
 
trog- the infection I experienced this year also showed up as an off-taste which to me was like a Belgian yeast, or maybe Brett. I bottle and did get some over carbonation and gushers about 2-3 months after bottling. The off-taste came first. I believe(I HOPE) I solved the problem by buying a new auto siphon, bleach bombing my bottling bucket, and switching sanitizers to a tamed iodine for a couple batches before I went back to starsan.
Edit- Damn, I see I posted virtually the same post about 6 posts above. SORRY......
 
I can see I'm flirting with disaster - I don't know are nearly as many sanitation steps as some of you! I've had one "infection" about a year ago and that I determined was because I was fermenting in secondary too close to an ongoing sour ale. Oops. The beer actually came our better (I had a couple "clean" bottles to compare it to). Time to up my sanitation game!
 

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