Any Lallemand Philly Sour feedback or experience to share?

[beervoid]

Question for anyone who’s used this yeast? Did you get CO2 bubbles during the initial “souring” phase, or only once it started fermenting sugars. I know this is somewhat of a silly question but I’m just curious.

Yes, but little in comparison to vigorous fermenting yeast

 

[HopsAreGood]

The only time I had a krausen was the initial 48 hours or so, sugars were being used after about 6 hours. Can’t say more than that though.

Thanks. I didn’t visually see much activity for the first 12 hours or so. 24 hours in it was bubbling away with a nice little krausen. 48 hours in now it’s still bubbling away but krausen has pretty much dropped entirely. I don’t have a tilt so I’m not sure of the exact stats but so far so good. I’ve had it at 72 the whole time.

 

[isomerization]

Packaged my batch today:

Very interesting flavor profile (peach pit and white grapes with a tropical punch note somewhere in the middle), going to wait until it’s carbed and mingled for a week or two before “officially” tasting.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Just took a sample out of curiosity.....96 hours post pitch. OG was 1.064 and it’s currently at 1.038. It’s still bubbling away steadily and I now have the temp held at 74. The smell is very much apple juice with a little white grape but kind of gross. There’s obviously a lot of sugar left to ferment out so I’m sure the character will continue to change/evolve.

 

[Sessionz]

I just mixed this up and here’s where I’m at so far:

3 pounds of wheat extract
3 pounds of Pilsner extract
.5 pounds of dextrose
.25 pounds of maltodextrin
.5 teaspoon of calcium chloride
OG looks like 1.064

Pitched in the two packets of philly sour without rehydrating them.

I currently have it sitting at 72 with a thermowell/inkbird setup in the center of the fermenter. I have a heat wrap on the outside of the fermenter and am going to keep it at 72 during what I assume is the lactic acid production phase for a few days, and then probably bump it up to 74-75....I’m thinking about 72 hours from now.

Once it appears to have finished, I’m going to add the raspberry purée directly to the fermenter along with a small dry hop of about two ounces. I’m not sure which hops but I have a lot to choose from.

After it referments on the purée and dry hops I’m going to crash it and transfer to the serving keg. I’ll provide updates of anything noteworthy.

I just finished brewing a batch similar to yours with 3lbs Pilsen DME, 3lbs wheat DME, 1 oz hallertau blanc at 10 min, 2 sachets of Philly Sour, and added 4lbs of frozen, then thawed Concord grapes + 32oz Concord grape juice directly to the fermenter after 7 days. I held the temp at 76 for 10 days and allowed to to cool crash to 62 prior to kegging. The result came out delicious and quite tart! I did pre acidity to 4.5ph prior to pitching yeast.

 

[beervoid]

I just finished brewing a batch similar to yours with 3lbs Pilsen DME, 3lbs wheat DME, 1 oz hallertau blanc at 10 min, 2 sachets of Philly Sour, and added 4lbs of frozen, then thawed Concord grapes + 32oz Concord grape juice directly to the fermenter after 7 days. I held the temp at 76 for 10 days and allowed to to cool crash to 62 prior to kegging. The result came out delicious and quite tart! I did pre acidity to 4.5ph prior to pitching yeast. View attachment 710716View attachment 710717

Whats is the final PH on that? I pre acidify the wort before transferring to fv to around 5 and got the ph down to as low at 3 with only 1 package.
About 10% dextrose

 

[Sessionz]

I just checked the ph and it came in at 2.8. It is really quite tart, but I like it like that! I probably could have gotten away with one sachet, but I wanted to make sure it got sour!

 

[beervoid]

I just checked the ph and it came in at 2.8. It is really quite tart, but I like it like that! I probably could have gotten away with one sachet, but I wanted to make sure it got sour!

Yeah thats tart allright. I dont mind tart but for me its very dependent on what fruit additions are being used. I just did a blueberry one and cause it was quiet tart I felt it tasted more like cherries.

 

[Mr.Wyatt]

Okay, I am brewing the Gose on Sunday (26 Jul) using Philly Sour as the only yeast. Here is the recipe:

My Gose
Gose
6.2% / 13.5 °P
Recipe by
Mark

All Grain
BIAB (No sparge)
67% efficiency
Batch Volume: 5.1 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Water: 6.66 gal
Total Water: 6.66 gal
Boil Volume: 5.71 gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.049
Vitals
Original Gravity: 1.055
Final Gravity: 1.008
IBU (Tinseth): 9
Color: 3.5 SRM


Mash

Temperature — 148 °F — 90 min
Malts (10 lb 8 oz)
5 lb (37%) — Dingemans Pale Wheat — Grain — 1.7 °L
5 lb (37%) — Avangard Pilsner Malt — Grain — 1.8 °L
8 oz (3.7%) — BestMalz Acidulated — Grain — 2.8 °L
Other (3 lb)
3 lb (22.2%) — Raspberry Purée — Other — 0 °L
Hops (2 oz)
1 oz (9 IBU) — Saaz 3.2% — Boil — 30 min
1 oz — Saaz 3.2% — Dry Hop — 1 min
Miscs
1 items — Whirlfloc — Boil — 15 min
0.4 oz — Coriander Seed — Secondary
0.5 oz — Salt (NaCl) — Secondary
Yeast
1 pkg — Lallemand (LalBrew) Philly Sour
Fermentation
Primary — 76 °F — 14 days

I will be using a Tilt hydrometer and may use a Brewjacket to keep the temps at 75-77F, but especially to keep it from going over 77F. The recent webinar Lallemand did on Philly Sour indicates that 77F was the recommended upper limit for best results. And, the same webinar said that it especially does well with simple sugars, so the Raspberry puree will help there a little. I plan to put in the Raspberry puree after the primary is almost over, say around 70% attenuation. I have a Fast Ferment, but I am going to use a Big Mouth Bubbler for the ease of dealing with the fruit addition.

If there's interest, I will post progress updates.

how did this beer turn out for you?

 

[HopsAreGood]

I just mixed this up and here’s where I’m at so far:

3 pounds of wheat extract
3 pounds of Pilsner extract
.5 pounds of dextrose
.25 pounds of maltodextrin
.5 teaspoon of calcium chloride
OG looks like 1.064

Pitched in the two packets of philly sour without rehydrating them.

I currently have it sitting at 72 with a thermowell/inkbird setup in the center of the fermenter. I have a heat wrap on the outside of the fermenter and am going to keep it at 72 during what I assume is the lactic acid production phase for a few days, and then probably bump it up to 74-75....I’m thinking about 72 hours from now.

Once it appears to have finished, I’m going to add the raspberry purée directly to the fermenter along with a small dry hop of about two ounces. I’m not sure which hops but I have a lot to choose from.

After it referments on the purée and dry hops I’m going to crash it and transfer to the serving keg. I’ll provide updates of anything noteworthy.

I kegged and carbed this yesterday and I have to say I really like how it came out. 1.064-1.010 so 7%. It’s not hot or boozy at all. I added 12 oz of the Amoretti along with 2 oz of Nelson once fermentation appeared to be completely over. The addition of the sugars and hops kicked off a little more fermentation but it really wasn’t as much as I thought it would be.

I then added another 12 oz of the Amoretti to the keg prior to transferring the beer into it. The result is a very fruity, nicely soured beer. The tartness from the raspberry combines nicely.

So all in all I’m very pleased with this 7% sour ale dryhopped with Nelson and fruited with raspberry purée. I’ll definitely be playing around with this yeast in the future.

Cheers!

 

[gerald8_kop]

Hey all

Found this to be a fascinating thread and thus keen to repeat a recent recipe using PS instead of WLP001 but am worried about the mash PH. Below is the recipe which brewfather calculates to be 6.03 using my tap water or 5.89 using reverse osmosis.

Cannot remember how much attention I paid to the PH last time with me being very new to all grain - does the BF calculation sound right? Looks like 10ml of lactic acid should compensate but of course has a reputation for artificiality which would be a shame since the relative complexity of this yeast is one of it's selling points.

TIA

 

[isomerization]

Super enjoying this beer!

Tasting notes: white grape, lychee, grapefruit, peach gummies, a bit of dank/funk/overripe fruit and either subtle mint/pine in the background.

Excited to try again as a kettle sour (this was a heavy Nelson Sauvin IPA).

 

[couchsending]

Just dumped batch 3 with Philly Sour. Batch one was interesting enough to want to try a few more beers with it but this might have been my last.

First attempt was one pack in 5.5 gallons of 1.044ish wort with 2% dextrose. Fermented at 68 ambient, internal never got above 72. During fermentation it had this aroma that reminded me of tobacco In some way. Like raw sweet tobacco leaves. Fermentation finished. Hit maybe 3.3Ish pH then added a ton of raspberries I’d frozen a while ago. Results were good. Gravity dropped a bit more and pH got even lower but it came out well. The earthy/tobacco/woody note kind of added to the tannic aspect of the raspberry seeds.

Batch 2 was a similar beer but fermented a bit warmer, 72. Still one packet. No dextrose this time. SimIlar results in regards to attenuation, fermentation, flocculation, etc. All spot on. But again had this really odd wild/cidery/earthy aspect to it. In no way would I describe this as even close to a clean ferment. It in no way resembles what a kettle sour tastes or smells like after fermentation. It’s more similar to what I’ve experienced in the spontaneous attempts I’ve done. Not quite that weird but aspects are definitely similar. Anyways I still added a ton of organic blueberries and blackberries and let it referment and kegged it. Ended up dumping that after not long in the keg. After more research I attributed what I was experiencing more to the blueberries than anything else but again that woody/earthy aspect was really strong (and probably amplified by the blueberries)

This last attempt was slightly higher in gravity (1.050) a bit more dextrose and 2 packs fermented at 74. Again quick pH drop, pretty fast ferment, great flocculation. Again tasted really weird before adding fruit. Not necessarily bad and less earthy/woody but by no means lots of “stone fruit” as the descriptors say. Tried some citrus this time with Mango and Tangerine purée. Refermentation was quick but the resulting beer is full of sulfur and smells very “wild”.

I’m not totally ruling out contamination from something else but I’ve only ever had 2 contaminated batches that I’m aware of in over 300 ferments and those were with batches that had gotten to 7 or 8 generations of yeast I had harvested from a commercial beer so it made sense in some way.

I’ve wasted a lot of money on fruit in the last two batches. Back to kettle souring for me which sucks. Was really wanting to love this yeast. It’s seemingly very easy to work with but my results at least have been really lack luster.

 

[beervoid]

Just dumped batch 3 with Philly Sour. Batch one was interesting enough to want to try a few more beers with it but this might have been my last.

First attempt was one pack in 5.5 gallons of 1.044ish wort with 2% dextrose. Fermented at 68 ambient, internal never got above 72. During fermentation it had this aroma that reminded me of tobacco In some way. Like raw sweet tobacco leaves. Fermentation finished. Hit maybe 3.3Ish pH then added a ton of raspberries I’d frozen a while ago. Results were good. Gravity dropped a bit more and pH got even lower but it came out well. The earthy/tobacco/woody note kind of added to the tannic aspect of the raspberry seeds.

Batch 2 was a similar beer but fermented a bit warmer, 72. Still one packet. No dextrose this time. SimIlar results in regards to attenuation, fermentation, flocculation, etc. All spot on. But again had this really odd wild/cidery/earthy aspect to it. In no way would I describe this as even close to a clean ferment. It in no way resembles what a kettle sour tastes or smells like after fermentation. It’s more similar to what I’ve experienced in the spontaneous attempts I’ve done. Not quite that weird but aspects are definitely similar. Anyways I still added a ton of organic blueberries and blackberries and let it referment and kegged it. Ended up dumping that after not long in the keg. After more research I attributed what I was experiencing more to the blueberries than anything else but again that woody/earthy aspect was really strong (and probably amplified by the blueberries)

This last attempt was slightly higher in gravity (1.050) a bit more dextrose and 2 packs fermented at 74. Again quick pH drop, pretty fast ferment, great flocculation. Again tasted really weird before adding fruit. Not necessarily bad and less earthy/woody but by no means lots of “stone fruit” as the descriptors say. Tried some citrus this time with Mango and Tangerine purée. Refermentation was quick but the resulting beer is full of sulfur and smells very “wild”.

I’m not totally ruling out contamination from something else but I’ve only ever had 2 contaminated batches that I’m aware of in over 300 ferments and those were with batches that had gotten to 7 or 8 generations of yeast I had harvested from a commercial beer so it made sense in some way.

I’ve wasted a lot of money on fruit in the last two batches. Back to kettle souring for me which sucks. Was really wanting to love this yeast. It’s seemingly very easy to work with but my results at least have been really lack luster.

Do you add any wheat or oats? I'm about 10 batches in and really enjoying philly, always added oats, and 5%+ dextrose

 

[couchsending]

Do you add any wheat or oats? I'm about 10 batches in and really enjoying philly, always added oats, and 5%+ dextrose

First was oats. Second was as well. Last was wheat. Last was 5% dextrose. Don’t think what I’m experiencing has much to do with the grain bill.. could be wrong.

 

[beervoid]

First was oats. Second was as well. Last was wheat. Last was 5% dextrose. Don’t think what I’m experiencing has much to do with the grain bill.. could be wrong.

I mean its not as clean as a kettle sour but I enjoy the added flavors it throws.

 

[beervoid]

Might be an idea to use philly solely for souring and pitch a yeast of choice after souring period is over, might be able to avoid the esters you dont like?
Still beats waiting on a kettle to sour.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Might be an idea to use philly solely for souring and pitch a yeast of choice after souring period is over, might be able to avoid the esters you dont like?
Still beats waiting on a kettle to sour.

And it's far more hygienic and efficient, as any other modern souring method by the way, I found Philly sour the most straight forward souring method, co souring and post souring are better in terms of final result but not as convenient as Philly, but way more convenient and clean than kettle souring

 

[thehaze]

I am currently still fermenting a fruited sour with Philly. I took a sample today, as I added some toasted flaked coconut, almonds and vanilla. OG was 1.055 and gravity is currently at 1.019 ( 64% AA ) after almost 8 days. I read Lallemand says it will take 10 days to reach FG. Tomorrow I will be adding fruit to the beer, maple syrup and Munich Classic ( I am bottling, so I need some yeast that can create carbonation in bottles ). I pitched 2 sachets into 25 liters of wort - 100% Bohemian Pilsner and french hops.

The sample tasted sour, but not overly so, and there was a fruity aroma and flavour - it was very peach leaning; my wife said it smelled like fruit juice.

 

[crusader1612]

anyone done something similar to this?
https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2014/11/extract-sour-stout-on-blackberries-and.html
My idea has been brewing for awhule, had the plan to do a kettle sour originally, and add fruit / dryhops.

the idea being to dryhop with Styrian goldings.
and use some form of fruit in addition, or not at all (LOL).

Thoughts on this team??

This is on tap now.
Looks more like a Porter or Brown ale.
I followed the recipe above, as an all grain recipe.

Then added 2.5kg blue berries and 1kg raspberries. super interesting beer.

things to note:
1. 2 packs in 1.056, took fermentation to 1.011 after primary.
2. final gravity was 1.008 after fruit additionn for 3 weeks.
3. added 150g of lactose, to bring it back up to 1.011 in the keg.

Does this yeast convert lactose at all??

 

[The M]

Does this yeast convert lactose at all??

This is what I've also been thinking. RPh_Guy what is your take in this one?

 

[Kickass]

Im about a year or two behind this Philly Sour craze. It wasn’t until I listened to a pod cast featuring the professor who facilitated finding, propagating then commercializing it that I realized how fun using it could be. For those who have a few batches under their belts, mind criticizing my recipe?

I plan to brew 10gal and split into two 5gal batches. One will get the dry hops and no mango. The other will get no dry hops and a bunch of mango.

1.040 OG
4.2-4.5ABV

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'd not looked at @Warthaug's blog for a while but these two articles are worth a read for anyone interested in Philly Sour - he's been talking more about it on WTF. The first is rather technical, but is talking about the patent that was granted on the basis that it was different from Lachancea thermotolerans. Summary - it isn't.
http://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php/2020/12/08/lachancea-patent-wars/
The second from a few weeks ago summarises what he's learnt from brewing with it. The main thing he's learned is that it is very sensitive to pitching rate - it only goes down to pH3.5 when pitched at 0.5-1 billion viable cells per litre. Either side of that and you'll get less acid. And since they are small cells and grow to a high density, most people are overpitching, which would explain why people see a decline in souring when they repitch. On the other hand it dies at about 10x the rate of US-05, so don't expect to keep it for too long in the fridge. But if you count viable cells and don't overpitch, it consistently goes to the same pH - he tested it out to 10 generations.

Other things he's learnt - the souring effect is not very dependent on OG, but does need oxygenation. Shaking for 5 seconds wasn't enough to get the pH down, shaking for 30s was. The effect of simple sugars on acid production is modest but real - it's fairly linear, going from 0% to 5% glucose reduces pH by about 0.2 units. He found it took 4-5 days to sour, and just under 10 days to ferment out.
http://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php/2021/02/12/diving-deep-in-to-philly-sour/

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Oh, and Bryan's latest piece is comparing Philly Sour with Sourvisiae in a Motueka/Mosaic wheat beer. Short version - Philly attenuates a bit more, but produces less acid, he finds the Sourvisiae almost too acid at 3.21. But Sourvisiae "stays out of the way" more - it has less yeast presence than the Philly, and more hops, but the Philly emphasises bitterness more, has bigger mouthfeel (glycerol?) and is perhaps doing bioconversion of the hops to papaya.

So for him Sourvisiae is a clear winner for this particular beer, if it could be diluted a bit with eg US-05 to reduce the acidity, but sees a place for Philly in other styles. [Ed: and in countries where you can't buy Sourvisiae....]

http://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php/2021/03/19/lactic-yeast-throwdown/

 

[Tom Foolery]

Im about a year or two behind this Philly Sour craze. It wasn’t until I listened to a pod cast featuring the professor who facilitated finding, propagating then commercializing it that I realized how fun using it could be. For those who have a few batches under their belts, mind criticizing my recipe?

I plan to brew 10gal and split into two 5gal batches. One will get the dry hops and no mango. The other will get no dry hops and a bunch of mango.

1.040 OG
4.2-4.5ABV

View attachment 723730

I've done four 5 gal batches to date. All were good, but the only one I dry hopped was noticeably less sour on the palate. I don't have a way to test PH.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I meant to mention Bryan Heit has also done a closer look at Sourvisiae. In short - it's far less sensitive to pitching rates, it's a lot more acid, acid production is roughly proportionate to fermentation, and fermention like acid production is finished in 5 days, half the time that Philly takes. Acid production is stable up to 10 generations and it dies at the same rate as US-05 (not much quicker like Philly), but it has a generation time of 20-30% longer than US-05, Notty etc which means that even contaminatant levels of normal yeast will take over after 10-15 repitches, and if you blend it to reduce the acidity, the blend won't be stable and will appear to lose acidity with repitching.

http://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php/2021/02/19/diving-deep-in-to-sourvisiae/

 

[Beenym88]

I pitched this yeast yesterday and I looks like there is zero activity. Anybody have experience with wait times for this one?

 

[Mr.Wyatt]

I pitched this yeast yesterday and I looks like there is zero activity. Anybody have experience with wait times for this one?

For me it took a day or two to actually see some actions. Whats temp do you have it at?

 

[Beenym88]

Pitched it at 72 but since it didn’t get going once I got home from work it was down to 68 so now there is a heat wrap on it taking it up to 75. I pitched around 5pm last night 2 packs dry into 5.25gallo s 1.07 wort.

 

[Mr.Wyatt]

Pitched it at 72 but since it didn’t get going once I got home from work it was down to 68 so now there is a heat wrap on it taking it up to 75. I pitched around 5pm last night 2 packs dry into 5.25gallo s 1.07 wort.

I would give it another day if nothing by then try some yeast nutrient.

 

[Beenym88]

We’ve got activity!

 

[Mr.Wyatt]

We’ve got activity!

Nice!! keep me updated!

 

[stealthfixr]

Tried a near co-fermentation with the Omega All the Bretts, pitching the later about 48-hours after pitching 2 packets of Philly Sour into a 1.047 OG wort. I also added 3.3lb of blueberry puree near the end of the primary. The resulting souring character is definitely more complex than just with Philly Sour, and no negatives so far--Philly Sour and All the Bretts seem to work well together. It's very drinkable now, but I am letting is age in a glass carboy for a few months to see if further conditioning helps the 'funkiness' develop more (and to time the keg with my daughter's visit in July--she loves sour beer).

 

[Beenym88]

I’m 8 days in and it does not taste sour at all. The ph meter did read 3.8 but I really don’t taste and sour where as I have a kettle sour going and it’s been 48 hours and tasting good. I don’t know if I will try philly sour again. I really dumb mistake I did do though was have the wrong thermometer probe in it so I accidentally let it get up to 80 degrees for a little bit and it taste kinda hot so maybe that ruined it.

 

[Mr.Wyatt]

I’m 8 days in and it does not taste sour at all. The ph meter did read 3.8 but I really don’t taste and sour where as I have a kettle sour going and it’s been 48 hours and tasting good. I don’t know if I will try philly sour again. I really dumb mistake I did do though was have the wrong thermometer probe in it so I accidentally let it get up to 80 degrees for a little bit and it taste kinda hot so maybe that ruined it.

3.8 is a very mild sour if any honestly. You will start to really get that sour taste around 3.6 3.5. I don't think it is ruined bring the temp down and give it a few more days.

 

[marc1]

I’m 8 days in and it does not taste sour at all. The ph meter did read 3.8 but I really don’t taste and sour where as I have a kettle sour going and it’s been 48 hours and tasting good. I don’t know if I will try philly sour again. I really dumb mistake I did do though was have the wrong thermometer probe in it so I accidentally let it get up to 80 degrees for a little bit and it taste kinda hot so maybe that ruined it.

How much yeast did you pitch?

 

[Mr.Wyatt]

How much yeast did you pitch?

I used 2 packs. Everything I read I could never get a solid answer on whether to use 1 or 2 packs. Plus i didnt do a yeast starter so I figured I would play it safe.

 

[marc1]

I used 2 packs. Everything I read I could never get a solid answer on whether to use 1 or 2 packs. Plus i didnt do a yeast starter so I figured I would play it safe.

You don't want to use a starter with this yeast.

 

[Mr.Wyatt]

You don't want to use a starter with this yeast.

Good thing I forgot to do it then lol

 

[Beenym88]

How much yeast did you pitch?

2 packs 1.07 wort