Any Lallemand Philly Sour feedback or experience to share?

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stealthfixr

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I am about to brew a Gose using this innovative new and innovative yeast (purchased from Label Peelers a few days ago). I have read the Lallemand information sheet and see the optimum temperature as 67F. I also plan to use their yeast pitching calculator, which seems to favor less than the full packet to be used for a 5 gallon, 1.050 batch. Are there any other suggestions or helpful hints in using this yeast? Any concerns about eliminating it from a Fast Ferment conical afterwards? Thanks, and I am happy to post my experience after the fact if there are no other examples here.
 

marc1

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I'm not sure where you're getting your info from. The Lallemand website says 68-77F. There's a youtube video from Lallemand about it, too. Pitch rate is very high, they recommend 2 packs per 5 gallon batch. More simple sugars give more sour and peach flavor. It is a slow fermenter and makes lactic first then ferments alcohol.

Edit:
Here's the website with info:
WildBrew™ PHILLY SOUR | Lallemand Brewing

Interestingly, the spec sheet is says 50-100g/hL, which is 0.5-1g/L, or about 10-20g of yeast per 5 gallons, so one pack should do it on the low end according to that.
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp...DS_LPS_BREWINGYEAST_PHILLYSOUR_ENG_8.5x11.pdf

This is different than their webinar recommended. The webinar has a lot of bland babbling filler, but the good stuff starts around 30 minutes in. The souring potential is influenced by the pitch rate, and lactic acid production is maximized at ~ 1 to 1.5 g/L of yeast. Too much or too little gives less lactic. In the Q&A at the end someone asked about how much to pitch for a 5 gallon homebrew batch, and they recommended two packets. One packet per 5 gallons (~0.5g/L) will give markedly less lactic production according to the slides in the webinar.

 
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RPh_Guy

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they recommend 2 packs per 5 gallon batch
Interestingly, their pitch rate calculator for this culture suggests 11.83 grams for 5 gal 1.050 wort.

Source:

Mixed messages ...
 

marc1

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Interestingly, their pitch rate calculator for this culture suggests 11.83 grams for 5 gal 1.050 wort.

Source:

Mixed messages ...
Maybe it's enough cells to ferment properly, but not enough to get optimum lactic acid production.

I'm going to see if I can get this yeast locally to try out this summer. It looks neat.

I'l probably get one pack and make a starter for a 10 gallon batch. Over pitching seems to be less detrimental than under pitching according to that presentation slide. I'll also include sugar in the wort.
 

marc1

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I'd be interested if you guys would measure the TA (as lactic acid) to verify their results. 0.1-0.4% is pretty low.
I've only made kettle sours with Swanson or Goodbelly. Have you measured TA as lactic from beers like that before? I never thought to measure it. I'm curious how this will compare, taste-wise. Some quick searching found a Milk the Funk wiki on how to measure, do you have any other recommendations?
Titratable Acidity

If I brew with it I'll update in this thread. I just got a pH meter, this could be fun to test!

I'm also excited to see how stealthfixr's beer comes out, so please share!
 

RPh_Guy

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Some quick searching found a Milk the Funk wiki on how to measure, do you have any other recommendations?
Titratable Acidity
I don't have time to research & write a proper article for that right at the moment, but the test is pretty easy. You can put it on a stir plate if you have one; that's what I do.

I'd suggest using a 10mL sample and this calculator:
Acid > Acid titration calculator
 

Amadeo38

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Hoping to hear back from Stealthfixr about how the beer turned out, what pitch rate and temp was used, percentage of simple sugars in the grist, and the resulting sour. I was given a free pack of this, and my typical batch size is 5gal, but I could do a smaller batch to maximize potential if need be.

Am also curious if anyone knows whether this can be propped up on a stir plate or if the yeast cake can be washed. I know the latter would make it tough to determine cell counts and thus may alter the optimal pitch rate into that “too much” category.
 
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stealthfixr

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My Philly Sour isn't arriving until next week, so I am torn between using L, Plantarum via one of the Sour Pitch packets I have, or waiting until next weekend and using the Philly. While I have kettle soured before, I was not a fan of the process. So, perhaps staggered pitching instead?

I was thinking of putting the boiled Gose wort into a 5gal corny keg at 95F, throwing in the Sour Pitch, purging the headspace with CO2, waiting 48-hours, then transferring to my Fast Ferment (with a hop tea addition to stop souring) and throwing in a recent & healthy 1056 starter in. I could even put the keg into a large pot with a Sous Vide wand to keep the temps at/near 95F for the first 24-hours or so.

Or, cool post-boil to 95F or so and throw Kviek & Sour Pitch in at the same time. Then add a hop tea later to stop souring. Options, options, options...
 

RPh_Guy

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While I have kettle soured before, I was not a fan of the process. So, perhaps staggered pitching instead?
Kettle souring (and pre-souring in general) is antiquated and inferior. Read this:
 

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I brewed up a beer with a saison like grain bill and hopping rate. Mostly pilsner and wheat malt, with some flaked rye. Hopped to ~20 ibus. OG was 1.047 and it finished at about 1.010 with one packet of Philly Sour. I used some ECY-1118 to prime it with since I read on the Lallemand website that it's not good for priming (don't really know what the reasoning is there, but whatever, don't want flat beer). The beer got down to 3.34 ph.

Anyway, I tried a bottle at about 10 days it's pretty damn good. Nicely sour, but not puckering. The yeast definitely gives off apple flavors that I find pleasant. I dry hopped with some el dorado and it added some stone fruit and a bit of citrus. I expected a bit more attenuation, but I'm very happy with how this beer turned out.
 
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stealthfixr

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Would it be correct to characterize Philly Sour as being especially well suited for any sour IPA style, or any other hoppy beer? Unlike L.Plantarum.

Seems like for a Gose, I might as well co-sour with Sour Pitch (L. Plantarum) since that's low IBUs to begin with (about 5). Starting to like to Kveik/Sour Pitch idea more and more, since it's hot as heck in AZ and I struggle to get down to typical pitching temps. And it will be done quickly, and my kegerator already has one empty spot!
 

Pappers_

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From another thread I started -

I'm thinking of experimenting with the Philly Sour yeast from Lallemand. I was thinking it might be interesting to do an American Wheat recipe, and pitch something like Nottingham, Philly Sour and a Brett strain at the same time. I'm targeting a light, drinkable beer, with some acidity and some brett character, but not overwhelmingly so. Balanced, I guess.

1. Does this make any sense?
2. The Philly Yeast says it will ferment out in ten days at 75ish F - if I ferment it at 65 with the Nottingham, will it still work, just more slowly?
3. I should get some nice mild Brett character after a couple of weeks, yes? Not the funky character you get from long term Brett aging, but a nice mild leathery or barnyard character.
4. Any other advice or thoughts?

Thanks!
 

Kenmoron

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I just pitched some Philly Sour a couple days ago. Here is my experience so far:

Batch: 3 gal
Grain bill: 75% Maris Otter, 25% Red Wheat Malt
Mash: overnight mash at 150F (about 10 hrs, dropped to about 144F)
Boil: x5 mins
Hops: 1 oz Citra at flameout
SG: 1.051
chilled to 75F

I split the 3 gal batch into 1 gal and 2 gal batches and plan on fruiting the 2 gal (tons of backyard raspberries) while leaving the 1 gal neutral. I direct pitched 1 packet (so right at about 1 g/L pitch rate) split accordingly between the fermenters and let it sit at 75F. After only about 8 hrs I noticed a decent krausen even though this is supposed to be a slow fermenter. At 30 hrs it seemed as though the krausen was falling so I took a sample. It turns out it was only down to 1.041, with a pH of 3.72. So I guess it is a little slower, just not visually. However, the sample tasted like straight up peach juice. I'm not sure how much of that is the citra vs residual sugar vs yeast character but I'm excited to see how this turns out. I'll report back as things progress.
 

Kenmoron

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Would it be correct to characterize Philly Sour as being especially well suited for any sour IPA style, or any other hoppy beer? Unlike L.Plantarum.

Seems like for a Gose, I might as well co-sour with Sour Pitch (L. Plantarum) since that's low IBUs to begin with (about 5). Starting to like to Kveik/Sour Pitch idea more and more, since it's hot as heck in AZ and I struggle to get down to typical pitching temps. And it will be done quickly, and my kegerator already has one empty spot!
If you are going to use Philly Sour and Kveik together, I would advise giving Philly a good head start (48hrs?). It seems to be a slow fermenter, whereas kveik is a beast. At this point, I am noticing some pleasant fruity esters from Philly sour, so I don't see the need to co-pitch or stagger-pitch with kveik. Philly sour is hop-tolerant so it will do well by itself in a sour IPA.
 
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stealthfixr

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Okay, I am brewing the Gose on Sunday (26 Jul) using Philly Sour as the only yeast. Here is the recipe:

My Gose
Gose
6.2% / 13.5 °P
Recipe by
Mark

All Grain
BIAB (No sparge)
67% efficiency
Batch Volume: 5.1 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Water: 6.66 gal
Total Water: 6.66 gal
Boil Volume: 5.71 gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.049
Vitals
Original Gravity: 1.055
Final Gravity: 1.008
IBU (Tinseth): 9
Color: 3.5 SRM


Mash

Temperature — 148 °F90 min
Malts (10 lb 8 oz)
5 lb (37%) — Dingemans Pale Wheat — Grain — 1.7 °L
5 lb (37%) — Avangard Pilsner Malt — Grain — 1.8 °L
8 oz (3.7%) — BestMalz Acidulated — Grain — 2.8 °L
Other (3 lb)
3 lb (22.2%) — Raspberry Purée — Other — 0 °L
Hops (2 oz)
1 oz (9 IBU) — Saaz 3.2% — Boil — 30 min
1 oz
— Saaz 3.2% — Dry Hop — 1 min
Miscs
1 items — Whirlfloc — Boil15 min
0.4 oz
— Coriander Seed — Secondary
0.5 oz
— Salt (NaCl) — Secondary
Yeast
1 pkg — Lallemand (LalBrew) Philly Sour
Fermentation
Primary — 76 °F14 days

I will be using a Tilt hydrometer and may use a Brewjacket to keep the temps at 75-77F, but especially to keep it from going over 77F. The recent webinar Lallemand did on Philly Sour indicates that 77F was the recommended upper limit for best results. And, the same webinar said that it especially does well with simple sugars, so the Raspberry puree will help there a little. I plan to put in the Raspberry puree after the primary is almost over, say around 70% attenuation. I have a Fast Ferment, but I am going to use a Big Mouth Bubbler for the ease of dealing with the fruit addition.

If there's interest, I will post progress updates.
 

Pappers_

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Any thoughts on pitching Philly Sour, Nottingham and a Brett strain into an American Wheat, if I'm trying for a balanced, light tartness with a low barnyard or leather?
 
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stealthfixr

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In the Lallemand Philly Sour webinar, they specifically did *not* recommend co-pitching with any other yeast, as it would be very likely overcome by other yeasts (Sachs) that ferment more aggressively. I'd skip the Nottingham and add the Bret in the secondary.
 

Kenmoron

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Any thoughts on pitching Philly Sour, Nottingham and a Brett strain into an American Wheat, if I'm trying for a balanced, light tartness with a low barnyard or leather?
Since brett generally has a longer lag time you might get away with co-pitching Philly Sour and brett. I doubt anyone has done this yet so it is hard to say what amount of brett expression you might get. Philly Sour should get to terminal pH after around 3-5 days but it's possible brett might be able to add something to the mix before that. It would be a crapshoot to figure out if you land at the pH/sourness you wanted or not. Nottingham would help you not get too low of a pH but who knows when or if you need to add it to that mix.
 

Pappers_

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Since brett generally has a longer lag time you might get away with co-pitching Philly Sour and brett. I doubt anyone has done this yet so it is hard to say what amount of brett expression you might get. Philly Sour should get to terminal pH after around 3-5 days but it's possible brett might be able to add something to the mix before that. It would be a crapshoot to figure out if you land at the pH/sourness you wanted or not. Nottingham would help you not get too low of a pH but who knows when or if you need to add it to that mix.
Yeah, I was thinking that adding Nottingham or similar would keep the pH from getting too low, a more balanced sour. But I hear others when they say it could neutralize the Philly Sour's ability to add any sourness. I think I'm going to go ahead and pitch all three at once and see where the chips fall. I'll let folks know what happens.
 

Beer666

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I did a small experimental no boil batch with some spare wort. Mashed at 64c with a 1040 7 IBU wort. A week later it was at 1012 and appeared to finish. Quite a long way off the expected 85% attenuation. Fermented at 25c. I racked some to blueberries and the other with raspberries and decent shot of fresh brett i had lying around. The taste was very promising, not as sour as i was expecting. I should of bottled some straight for comparison.

Edit. Corrected the attenuation as stated by Lallemand. Its 80 to 85% not 95% as i previously posted.
 
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marc1

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I did a small experimental no boil batch with some spare wort. Mashed at 64c with a 1040 7 IBU wort. A week later it was at 1012 and appeared to finish. Quite a long way off the expected 95% attenuation. Fermented at 25c. I racked some to blueberries and the other with raspberries and decent shot of fresh brett i had lying around. The taste was very promising, not as sour as i was expecting. I should of bottled some straight for comparison.
Where did you see 95% attenuation? Their website only says "high"; I was hoping to get a better official estimate.
 

Kenmoron

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Anecdotally, it seems that it typically attenuates in the 75-85% range (80-85% as reported by Lallemand), but some have reported into the 90s. It is possible that higher temps (80's) is what helps it attenuate higher, but this isn't confirmed via lab data. This info is off of Lallemand's youtube channel and the few videos they have on it.
 

Tyler B

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Yeah, I was thinking that adding Nottingham or similar would keep the pH from getting too low, a more balanced sour. But I hear others when they say it could neutralize the Philly Sour's ability to add any sourness. I think I'm going to go ahead and pitch all three at once and see where the chips fall. I'll let folks know what happens.
You could also split the wort, ferment separately, and blend them back together however you see fit. Might allow you to get some expression from all three. Just a thought.
 

Tyler B

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Okay, I am brewing the Gose on Sunday (26 Jul) using Philly Sour as the only yeast. Here is the recipe:

My Gose
Gose
6.2% / 13.5 °P
Recipe by
Mark

All Grain
BIAB (No sparge)
67% efficiency
Batch Volume: 5.1 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Water: 6.66 gal
Total Water: 6.66 gal
Boil Volume: 5.71 gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.049
Vitals
Original Gravity: 1.055
Final Gravity: 1.008
IBU (Tinseth): 9
Color: 3.5 SRM


Mash

Temperature — 148 °F90 min
Malts (10 lb 8 oz)
5 lb (37%) — Dingemans Pale Wheat — Grain — 1.7 °L
5 lb (37%) — Avangard Pilsner Malt — Grain — 1.8 °L
8 oz (3.7%) — BestMalz Acidulated — Grain — 2.8 °L
Other (3 lb)
3 lb (22.2%) — Raspberry Purée — Other — 0 °L
Hops (2 oz)
1 oz (9 IBU) — Saaz 3.2% — Boil — 30 min
1 oz
— Saaz 3.2% — Dry Hop — 1 min
Miscs
1 items — Whirlfloc — Boil15 min
0.4 oz
— Coriander Seed — Secondary
0.5 oz
— Salt (NaCl) — Secondary
Yeast
1 pkg — Lallemand (LalBrew) Philly Sour
Fermentation
Primary — 76 °F14 days

I will be using a Tilt hydrometer and may use a Brewjacket to keep the temps at 75-77F, but especially to keep it from going over 77F. The recent webinar Lallemand did on Philly Sour indicates that 77F was the recommended upper limit for best results. And, the same webinar said that it especially does well with simple sugars, so the Raspberry puree will help there a little. I plan to put in the Raspberry puree after the primary is almost over, say around 70% attenuation. I have a Fast Ferment, but I am going to use a Big Mouth Bubbler for the ease of dealing with the fruit addition.

If there's interest, I will post progress updates.
I'm definitely interested. I just ordered a few packs and was planning an almost identical beer. I probably won't get around to brewing it for at least another week or two though. Please update and let us know how this goes. I'll do the same.
 

Beer666

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Where did you see 95% attenuation? Their website only says "high"; I was hoping to get a better official estimate.
Sorry i made a mistake its actually 80 to 85%. I only managed 69% if it had finished fermenting. I will correct my post. Information is from this video by David Heath.

 
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stealthfixr

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Brewing disaster...whole brewing session went flawlessly yesterday right up until moving the chilled wort from the kettle to the Big Mouth Bubbler. Ants were a problem due to some spilled mash so I wet the whole area down (backyard patio). After the transfer was complete I noticed that only ~2 gallons were in the fermenter...and then I noticed that the damned spigot was full open and draining wort onto the wet patio (if it had not been wet, I would have noticed much sooner). Maybe I could have fermented the less than half-batch and called it a day. But, I'd rather do it right than not, so I will redo this effort next weekend with the same ingredients. Been brewing for many years and never made this mistake before. Argh!
 
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Kenmoron

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Brewing disaster...whole brewing session went flawlessly yesterday right up until moving the chilled wort from the kettle to the Big Mouth Bubbler. Ants were a problem due to some spilled mash so I wet the whole area down (backyard patio). After the transfer was complete I noticed that only ~2 gallons were in the fermenter...and then I noticed that the damned spigot was full open and draining wort onto the wet patio (if it had not been wet, I would have noticed much sooner). Maybe I could have fermented the less than half-batch and called it a day, but I'd rather do it right than not, so I will redo this effort Friday with the same ingredients. Been brewing for many years and never made this mistake before. Argh!
Ouch! Sorry for your loss. Get some 1 gal fermenters if you don't have some already. You can use extra/leftover wort for splitting up and doing mini experimental batches (dry hop comparison, yeast comparison, fruit addition comparison, etc.). I have 6 x 1 gal fermenters that I seem to always be utilizing.
 

Tyler B

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Brewing disaster...whole brewing session went flawlessly yesterday right up until moving the chilled wort from the kettle to the Big Mouth Bubbler. Ants were a problem due to some spilled mash so I wet the whole area down (backyard patio). After the transfer was complete I noticed that only ~2 gallons were in the fermenter...and then I noticed that the damned spigot was full open and draining wort onto the wet patio (if it had not been wet, I would have noticed much sooner). Maybe I could have fermented the less than half-batch and called it a day, but I'd rather do it right than not, so I will redo this effort Friday with the same ingredients. Been brewing for many years and never made this mistake before. Argh!
I know it's just a matter of time before I have something similar to me... Sorry, man!
 
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stealthfixr

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Although the mistake was all mine, I just bought a Spike CF5 with casters--arrives this Friday. Ought to be a lot easier to see leaks like this with the SS conical and a whole lot less fragile than plastic. Glycol chiller should be here end of August from MoreBeer, although I do not need one for this yeast.

Kenmoron, good point on the smaller fermenters. I've got a Kombucha fermenter than I am not using and did not even think about at the time.
 

Tyler B

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OK, I just watched the 1hr 20min webinar and there is a lot of good stuff in there. Something that jumped out at me were the factors that affect the amount of souring that takes place. A lot of this has been said, but just to put it in one place (so I don't have to watch the movie again before I brew).

1. Over pitching and underpitching results in a less sour beer. As others have said, the lab that researched this recommends 1-1.5g/L of beer (oddly with no mention of OG). They recommended not cropping or repitching yeast because it is hard to control the pitch rate. However, if you do, they recommend 1 million cells/mL/°Plato. I would go with the recommendation of the guy who has a PhD and studied this for years over the Lallemand website pitch rate calculator.

2. Fermenting at the high end (77°F) of the recommended temp range (68-77F) also results in more souring.

3. Adding glucose to the wort (as opposed to using all malt wort) results in more souring. All malt worts also tend to produce more red apple flavors whereas those with glucose additions produce more stonefruit/peach flavors.

4. As others have said, don't co-pitch yeast as most yeasts out compete Philly Sour and it doesn't have a chance to sour the beer. Instead pitch in sequence if you want to co-pitch. For example, pitch Philly Sour, then when it has reached terminal pH (after 3 days or so), pitch the second yeast (i.e. Kveik, Belle Saison) to help finish the job.

5. While the yeast is hop tolerant, excessive dry hopping (like in a NEIPA) can raise the pH which might affect the perceived sourness. Still sounds tasty to me.

Also of interest, this is a wild yeast and one person on the webinar said to treat it like brett but the other said contamination shouldn't be a concern. In fact, normal ale yeast might contaminate this one.
 

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stealthfixr

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One interesting tidbit was that this yeast was found locally in Philadelphia...in a graveyard! Should we propose a new name? Last Stop Sour? Picture a Tim Burton picture on the front. 😂

I plan to just put in the single sachet without rehydration or any other starter action. I heard a couple times in the webinar that the single packet was sized just right for most 5 gallon OG batches. My IBUs will be about 9.5 going into the fermenter, and no dry hoping planned. Being a Gose, however, dry hopping at the preferred pH might be a way in future batches to control souring from getting too out of hand.
 

Tyler B

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I plan to just put in the single sachet without rehydration or any other starter action. I heard a couple times in the webinar that the single packet was sized just right for most 5 gallon OG batches. My IBUs will be about 9.5 going into the fermenter, and no dry hoping planned. Being a Gose, however, dry hopping at the preferred pH might be a way in future batches to control souring from getting too out of hand.
I think maybe you misunderstood them. They say multiple times that you should pitch 1-1.5g/L. So for a normal 5 gallon (19L) batch, that would be 19-28.5g. 1 sachet (11g) would be underpitching, at least in terms of maximizing souring. 2 packs (22g)would fall right in line with their recommendation. During the Q&A session at the end, they very specifically said "two sachets". They also said you can either rehydrate or direct pitch, whatever you want to do.
 
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stealthfixr

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I think maybe you misunderstood them. They say multiple times that you should pitch 1-1.5g/L. So for a normal 5 gallon (19L) batch, that would be 19-28.5g. 1 sachet (11g) would be underpitching, at least in terms of maximizing souring. 2 packs (22g)would fall right in line with their recommendation. During the Q&A session at the end, they very specifically said "two sachets". They also said you can either rehydrate or direct pitch, whatever you want to do.
You're right, good catch. Pitching rate calculator on the Lallemand website also says 2 packets. Good thing I have two of them on hand.
 

Beer666

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You're right, good catch. Pitching rate calculator on the Lallemand website also says 2 packets. Good thing I have two of them on hand.
That's weird, when i used their calc a few weeks ago it said 4g for 10l of 1040 wort. David Heath states in his video on advice from Lallemand he only used 1 pack.
 

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Brewing disaster...whole brewing session went flawlessly yesterday right up until moving the chilled wort from the kettle to the Big Mouth Bubbler. Ants were a problem due to some spilled mash so I wet the whole area down (backyard patio). After the transfer was complete I noticed that only ~2 gallons were in the fermenter...and then I noticed that the damned spigot was full open and draining wort onto the wet patio (if it had not been wet, I would have noticed much sooner). Maybe I could have fermented the less than half-batch and called it a day. But, I'd rather do it right than not, so I will redo this effort next weekend with the same ingredients. Been brewing for many years and never made this mistake before. Argh!
Ouch!

I had the same thing happen, but while sanitizing. I painted my spigot handles so I could easily see Open or Closed. My next one will be painted green for closed and red for open!
 

Tyler B

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That's weird, when i used their calc a few weeks ago it said 4g for 10l of 1040 wort. David Heath states in his video on advice from Lallemand he only used 1 pack.
I just checked the pitch calc and it doesn't seem to match Dr. Farber's recommendation from the webinar.

Like I said in a previous post. Trust the guy who did the research, not the online calculator. It's not common that you have access to that kind of primary source.
 

Kenmoron

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Has anyone finished a ferment and actually had a beer yet via bottle conditioning? I'm about to bottle mine soon and I'm wondering if they will bottle condition ok. Lallemand recommends adding a conditioning yeast if bottling...but I get the feeling that this may be just to buy more yeast. One guy mentioned on Milk The Funk that Philly Sour may not do well under pressure which slightly concerns me. I'd like to hear of a successful bottle conditioning experience. If not, I may be adding some conditioning yeast except for a couple bottles just to see how it does by itself.
 
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