Any Lallemand Philly Sour feedback or experience to share?

Yakima 728
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I listened very carefully and didn't hear anything about airlock activity slowing down. That's why I provided all the information above.

But regardless, in my case, the airlock activity peaked after just one day, to the point where krausen was coming out of the airlock (excess of 35 bubbles/min) and then plummeted over the next two days (to 8 bubbles/min). I suspect that it then made the transition from producing lactic acid to making ethanol, rose gradually over the next three days to 33 bubbles/min, stayed there for about a day, and then dropped gradually over the next 2-1/2 days to about 4 or 5 bubbles/min where it currently is. The SG is currently at 1.013 and might drop as low as 1.012 by tomorrow. I think 1.012 will likely be the F.G. The fermentation was fairly steady over the last 10 days at 78 F. I only used one package of Philly Sour.

I won't be adding any fruit, but will be dry-hopping it with 8.75 Oz. of hops: Idaho 7, Sabro, Chinook, Citra and Lemondrop, which should give it a nice, tropical fruit type of flavor.
 
Bottoms_Up said:
Looks great! Are you willing to share the recipe?
Click to expand...

65% Golden Promise
15% Malted Oats
10% Rolled Oats
8% Lactose
2% Acid Malt

Mash @ 63C

OG 1.079
FG 1.020

30 IBU Columbus @ 60
100g Spalter @ Whirlpool

I pitched Philly Sour until the pH dropped to 3.6 then pitched LA3. Added 4kg of frozen raspberries post ferm.
 
Frieds said:
65% Golden Promise
15% Malted Oats
10% Rolled Oats
8% Lactose
2% Acid Malt

Mash @ 63C

OG 1.079
FG 1.020

30 IBU Columbus @ 60
100g Spalter @ Whirlpool

I pitched Philly Sour until the pH dropped to 3.6 then pitched LA3. Added 4kg of frozen raspberries post ferm.
Click to expand...
Thank you! This looks like a great recipe. Would you change anything if you were to make it again?
 
Question: When would you add fruit puree to a Philly Sour batch?

I made a batch over the winter with Philly Sour and thought it would be a great summer drinking beer. I acquired a 1L container of Blackberry Puree at Homebrew Con targeting a Blackberry Sour with Philly Sour (2.5 gal batch). I made the batch yesterday and pitched my yeast. I have not added the puree. What I recall from Lallemand info was that adding fruit during the first few days of fermentation will help boost the sour production.

That was my initial plan: add the puree once fermentation started to pick up.

Does that sound good? I have not brewed with fruit much and not for many years and I have never used a puree. Would you add the puree today/tomorrow? Wait until fermentation is mostly complete? Transfer to a secondary and add the puree then?

Recipe info for my 2.5 gallon batch (2.7 gals into fermenter):
  • 3.20 lb Pilsner (47.9%)
  • 0.40 lb White Wheat Malt (6.0%)
  • 0.20 lb Oats, Flaked (3.0%)
  • 0.20 lb Honey Malt (3.0%)
  • 0.40 lb Table Sugar (6.0%)
  • 0.16 oz Warrior Boil @ 60 min (18.7 IBUs)
  • 1.0 pkg Philly Sour
  • 0.26 gal [1L] Blackberry Puree
  • Mash 150F for 60 mins
  • Measured OG: 1.050 (est with puree 1.055)
  • Pitched yeast at 70F, plan to let rise to 76F
 
CascadesBrewer said:
Question: When would you add fruit puree to a Philly Sour batch?

I made a batch over the winter with Philly Sour and thought it would be a great summer drinking beer. I acquired a 1L container of Blackberry Puree at Homebrew Con targeting a Blackberry Sour with Philly Sour (2.5 gal batch). I made the batch yesterday and pitched my yeast. I have not added the puree. What I recall from Lallemand info was that adding fruit during the first few days of fermentation will help boost the sour production.

That was my initial plan: add the puree once fermentation started to pick up.

Does that sound good? I have not brewed with fruit much and not for many years and I have never used a puree. Would you add the puree today/tomorrow? Wait until fermentation is mostly complete? Transfer to a secondary and add the puree then?

Recipe info for my 2.5 gallon batch (2.7 gals into fermenter):
  • 3.20 lb Pilsner (47.9%)
  • 0.40 lb White Wheat Malt (6.0%)
  • 0.20 lb Oats, Flaked (3.0%)
  • 0.20 lb Honey Malt (3.0%)
  • 0.40 lb Table Sugar (6.0%)
  • 0.16 oz Warrior Boil @ 60 min (18.7 IBUs)
  • 1.0 pkg Philly Sour
  • 0.26 gal [1L] Blackberry Puree
  • Mash 150F for 60 mins
  • Measured OG: 1.050 (est with puree 1.055)
  • Pitched yeast at 70F, plan to let rise to 76F
Click to expand...
Its kinda like dryhopping but with a major hop creep. You want to keep aroma in and add it later imho.
Also 1 liter puree for a 5 gal batch is very little I would add at least 3L.
 
beervoid said:
Also 1 liter puree for a 5 gal batch is very little I would add at least 3L.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tips.

It is a 2.5 gal batch. The container weighs about 2.5 lbs, so hopefully it is about the right amount to add some flavor, color and a little more tartness.

It is one of these. They don't have too much info on their site. I am not quite sure if it adds gravity points, and I don't care too much about the gravity and ABV of the finished beer.
https://offers.my-vb.com/3-nouvelles-saveurs-ambiantes
 
CascadesBrewer said:
Question: When would you add fruit puree to a Philly Sour batch?

I made a batch over the winter with Philly Sour and thought it would be a great summer drinking beer. I acquired a 1L container of Blackberry Puree at Homebrew Con targeting a Blackberry Sour with Philly Sour (2.5 gal batch). I made the batch yesterday and pitched my yeast. I have not added the puree. What I recall from Lallemand info was that adding fruit during the first few days of fermentation will help boost the sour production.

That was my initial plan: add the puree once fermentation started to pick up.

Does that sound good? I have not brewed with fruit much and not for many years and I have never used a puree. Would you add the puree today/tomorrow? Wait until fermentation is mostly complete? Transfer to a secondary and add the puree then?

Recipe info for my 2.5 gallon batch (2.7 gals into fermenter):
  • 3.20 lb Pilsner (47.9%)
  • 0.40 lb White Wheat Malt (6.0%)
  • 0.20 lb Oats, Flaked (3.0%)
  • 0.20 lb Honey Malt (3.0%)
  • 0.40 lb Table Sugar (6.0%)
  • 0.16 oz Warrior Boil @ 60 min (18.7 IBUs)
  • 1.0 pkg Philly Sour
  • 0.26 gal [1L] Blackberry Puree
  • Mash 150F for 60 mins
  • Measured OG: 1.050 (est with puree 1.055)
  • Pitched yeast at 70F, plan to let rise to 76F
Click to expand...

This is largely dependent on taste, but I don't think you "need" any additional acidity. At the proper pitching rate, the yeast produces plenty of lactic acid, and the blackberries themselves should be pretty sour as well. So there's no need for a "sour boost" imho.

You sure want the fermentation to still be fairly active to make sure the fruit is fermented in a timely manner. You may get a brighter fruit flavour by adding the fruit a bit later, but that is purely speculation on my part.

All in all, I don't think it's going to make a great difference.
 
It's fermenting now imperial juicy fruti with lactose. 23L 15BLG+ 1,3kg Lactose+150g glucose.
Plans to add go gooseberries, blackberries, raspberries, mirabelle plums, and plums.

Do you add other yeast to the refermentation in bottles?
Can i use the same yest in other beer? Or i must buy new yest?
 
Last edited:
Bolt said:
It's fermenting now imperial juicy fruti with lactose. 23L 15BLG+ 1,3kg Lactose+150g glucose.
Plans to add go gooseberries, blackberries, raspberries, mirabelle plums, and plums.

Do you add other yeast to the refermentation in bottles?
Can i use the same yest in other beer? Or i must buy new yest?
Click to expand...
Considering the fact that philly likes to floc pretty hard and form a solid yeast cake I would think adding some priming yeast would be a good idea
 
Drewch said:
I've bottle conditioned with PS before. It does work, but it's not fast.
Click to expand...
On which day did you bottle and how long did it take you to reach proper carbonation?
Did u cold crash before bottling?
 
My Blackberry Sour made with Philly Sour turned out quite nice (recipe a few posts up). It has lots of blackberry aroma and flavors, more than I expected. For me, the Philly Sour created a nice amount of tartness (I measured a pH of 3.45 in the final beer).

IMG_4172.png
 
Bolt said:
How many frutis u add?
I plan use 3-4kg to 24l.
Click to expand...
Mine was a 2.5 gal batch (~10L) and I added one 1L container of puree. The container weighed about 2.5 lbs (1.1 kg). "Fruited Sours" range a lot from "a sour beer with some fruit character" to "a fruit drink with some sour beer character". My goal was someplace in the middle of those.
 
Has anyone here tried soft crashing prior to adding fruit to avoid refermentation?
 
I usually add 2 grams of sodium benzoate per one 20 l keg. After that, I throw in frozen fruit, leave that for one week and everything works just fine.
 
Hav
t1m1 said:
I usually add 2 grams of sodium benzoate per one 20 l keg. After that, I throw in frozen fruit, leave that for one week and everything works just fine.
Click to expand...
Have you tested that for refermentation potential by any chance?
 
I did, but with cider. Sours are always in kegs on low keezer temeperatures.
 
screenshot-644.jpg


With organic raspberries. Little bit brighter in color compared to frozen from the store but much more aromatic. Great beer!
 
I made a beer using Philly Sour with 9 3/4 ounces of dry hops (Idaho 7, Sabro, Chinook, Citra and Lemondrop) rather than fruit, which I dry-hoppped for 5 days. It ended up tasting very much like a fresh grapefruit (not too bitter), which is quite nice on a hot day. It was a little strong in terms of flavor, and the sourness just barely came through, so I would advise not to use quite that many hops (perhaps no more than 7 or 8 ounces) and leave them for 4 days rather than for five. Otherwise it likely would have come out quite balanced. One package of Philly Sour yeast was enough.

I plan to use only Idaho 7 and Sabro hops next time, to give it more of a tropical fruit flavor. The Citra hops, in particular, took it a little over the edge.

Another time I would like to try to capture the general flavor of a Rodenbach (Pale Malt, Aromatic Malt, Wheat Malt, Caramunich Malt, and Speical B Malt. Hops: Hallertauer Hersbrucker, Styrian Goldings and Saaz). Has anyone already tried something like this?
 
Last edited:
I made a blackberry sour with Philly sour yeast, turned out great. Can't remember the exact recipe, but I do remember using lots of blackberry, like 2 lbs per gal, 1/2 in primary, then 1/2 in secondary. I did this because I heard that the early adjunct sugar would increase the acid production, and I knew that fruit in the secondary would increase berry taste. I will make it again
 
yes, I made a Mango Sour using the Philly Sour yeast. I used Jumex nectar instead of real fruit and it worked well. It was an easy brew using Mr. Beer Hopped extract Golden Ale, Wheat LME and lactose. Very nice. I think the Philly sour yeast gave me smaller bubbles than regular yeast. No idea why it would.
 
This is one for the geeks, and is more for interest than of direct relevance to your brewing although it doesn't hurt to be reminded that bugs behave differently in a mixed culture. It isn't directly about Philly Sour but involves another strain of L. thermotolerans, IWBT Y1240 (CBS: 16374). Conacher et al who are at the South African Grape and Wine Research Institute in Stellenbosch looked at gene expression when a wine yeast (VIN13) was co-fermented with either Lachancea or Torulaspora delbrueckii LO544 - not surprisingly you see changes that imply the yeast gets stressed and is competing for food with the other species, Saccharomyces finds it harder to fight against Torulaspora than Lachancea - 807 genes change expression with the former, many known starvation responses, versus just 35 with Lachancea.

Pairwise interaction with L. thermotolerans induced upregulation of a few genes involved in the respiratory electron transport chain, specifically mitochondrial ATP synthesis (COX4, CYT1, QCR2) and ubiquinone biosynthesis (COQ6) genes (Fig. S3). Further, the lesser-studied putative hexose transporter (HXT8) was downregulated. Taken with the upregulation of pyruvate decarboxylase gene PDC5 (expressed under all conditions), this suggests a shift to simultaneous fermentative and respiratory metabolism, common to Crabtree-positive yeasts under high-glucose, aerobic conditions. Other upregulated genes included a ubiquitin biosynthesis gene (UBX6), a weak acid stress response gene (YRO1), and a transcriptional modulator of meiosis, gene silencing, and stress-induced RNR genes (WTM1), as well as amino acid biosynthesis genes (MET5, MST1). Interestingly, the gene with the highest statistical significance value (excluding those genes [in the Torulaspora list]) was an uncharacterized gene (YJR115W), which was downregulated, similarly to a previous study that evaluated S. cerevisiae and L. thermotolerans pairings (7), highlighting this gene as a potential target for future functional annotation studies.

Then they fermented all three together, and found that of the genes that changed expression, 43% were "new" that were not changed in the 2-way fermentations, the remaining 57% included all the ones changed by co-fermenting with Lachancea but only 73% of those with Torulaspora. These :

show a cellular priority for mitochondrial processes that generate energy. There are also signs of DNA replication stress and alterations to cell cycle checkpoints (Fig. S6, cluster 3), indicating impacts on proliferation rate as well. Further, protein trafficking within the cell was also upregulated, indicating impacts on protein turnover within the cell as well (Fig. S6, cluster 4).
Genes of the flocculin family, involved in cell adhesion and flocculation, were largely downregulated (Fig. S6, clusters 12 and 15). These genes have been highlighted in previous studies as a potential regulator of ecosystem dynamics and are an intuitive target as direct contact between cells influences the nature of their interactions (45–47). This seemingly indicates that S. cerevisiae may be avoiding direct cell contact with the other species within the culture, perhaps in an attempt to increase its chances to access limiting nutrients or to avoid cell wall-associated inhibition mechanisms of competing species (48).
In evaluating highly differentially expressed genes not necessarily associated with large clusters, the aromatic aminotransaminase, ARO9, was the most highly upregulated gene and is known to be induced by the presence of aromatic amino acids in growth media (49). The concentrations of aromatic amino acids (tyrosine, phenylalanine, and tryptophan) do not show significant differences between the monoculture and mixed cultures. This suggests a potential alternative function of this gene related to mixed-culture growth and has implications in terms of the generation of higher alcohols, which have previously been highlighted in other yeast-yeast interaction studies as potential signaling molecules and are of note since they are known to influence wine flavor and aroma (34, 35, 50, 51).The most downregulated genes included ZNF1, a glucose-repressed transcription factor, with regulatory roles in alternative carbon source utilization, respiration, and stress (52), as well as BDS1, a bacterially derived sulfatase responsible for utilization of sulfate esters, which suggests some impacts on sulfate import and metabolism (53).
Lastly, a cluster of interest related to the overarching aim of hypothesis generation is cluster 5, which consists of primarily uncharacterized open reading frames, which is significant given how well annotated the S. cerevisiae genome is. These would be good targets for annotation in a mixed-culture context...
this switch to respiratory metabolism and adjusted protein turnover (particularly of the mitochondria) has been associated with longevity and aging mechanisms in S. cerevisiae and may perhaps be a mechanism to outlast its competitors (69). The trends suggest that S. cerevisiae employs a rapid diversification of its metabolism, as well as avoiding cell aggregation, in order to increase its chances of access to essential nutrients and thereby ensure its survival.

https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/msphere.00436-22
The previous 2019 paper from Stellenbosch University looked at the classic lab cerevisiae S288c fermented with L. thermotolerans CBS6340 :
S. cerevisiae is better able to deal with the fermentation environment possibly due to its efficient competitive uptake of sterols, copper and iron, accompanied by cell wall remodelling to accommodate additional mannoproteins and PAU proteins. These strategies allow the yeast to regulate membrane fluidity and cell wall porosity, and withstand an anaerobic, high ethanol environment. Conversely, the fermentation environment seems highly toxic to L. thermotolerans, which mainly features a molecular signature that is characterized by detoxification, cell aggregation and cell death associated genes. The strong cell wall-related responses in both species suggest the importance of this organelle in the cellular response to other species. In particular, the data support that the regulation of adhesion properties may play a central role in modulating the physical and ecological interactions between species [16]. The data are also a confirmation of many studies that have reported a rapid decline of L. thermotolerans in wine fermentation especially in mixed cultures with S. cerevisiae.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12864-019-5511-x
 
i am currently in process of trying this yeast with a fruited Cider. I may have messed up because I pitched at 65 F. Will this totally throw off my batch and give off flavors? I had it up to 75 F within a few hours so I'm hoping it will be salvageable. Anyone else made this mistake and how did it come out?
 
Porter_Stout said:
i am currently in process of trying this yeast with a fruited Cider. I may have messed up because I pitched at 65 F. Will this totally throw off my batch and give off flavors? I had it up to 75 F within a few hours so I'm hoping it will be salvageable. Anyone else made this mistake and how did it come out?
Click to expand...
You’ll be ok with that. Any updates on progress since you posted?
 
evolutionary said:
You’ll be ok with that. Any updates on progress since you posted?
Click to expand...
I took a sample today with a refrac and it measured 1002 so I'm bottling. I'm debating on adding dextrose for bottling. It's not the best I've made but it's drinkable before carbonation. The mixed fruit isn't as prominent as I'd hoped but I'll still drink it.
16780545517872798157098853393756.jpg
 
I brewed a Philly sour IPA. Everything is great besides that the sourness is less than I expected. I put 5.4% of Dextrose, mash at 65C/149F for 1 hour. Chill to 25c/77F and fermentation at 22C+/75F room temperature. One pack Phlly sour yeast for 10L (2.5 gallon) wort. PH finally at 3.38 after fermentation (before bottling). It carbonated OK after two weeks in the bottles in room temperature.

I would rate the sourness 4 out of 10.. it's more like a dry hopped gose than a sour IPA, only if it can be more sour would be perfect. In order to increase the sourness to 6 or 7 for next batch, I guess I will try 8% Dextrose, 64C mash temperature and high fermentation temperature?

PLS.jpg
 
Miles_1111 said:
I brewed a Philly sour IPA. Everything is great besides that the sourness is less than I expected. I put 5.4% of Dextrose, mash at 65C/149F for 1 hour. Chill to 25c/77F and fermentation at 22C+/75F room temperature. One pack Phlly sour yeast for 10L (2.5 gallon) wort. PH finally at 3.38 after fermentation (before bottling). It carbonated OK after two weeks in the bottles in room temperature.

I would rate the sourness 4 out of 10.. it's more like a dry hopped gose than a sour IPA, only if it can be more sour would be perfect. In order to increase the sourness to 6 or 7 for next batch, I guess I will try 8% Dextrose, 64C mash temperature and high fermentation temperature?

View attachment 814521
Click to expand...
You could let the pH drop with the philly sour which might enly take 3 days or so then pitch a normal yeast. I used opshaug kveik and bumped up to 28 celsius . This dropped the pH by about .2 more, can pre or post acidify as well with phosphoric or lactic acid.
The sour IPA i made with it used this recipe and dropped completely clear.
 
I'm on day 4 of my grapefruit gose and I am concerned.

The fermentation is really slow, like it's only dropped two points today.
I took a sample to see how sour it is as I am noticing airlock activity and the gravity has dropped about 10 points in total, so I assumed the souring phase had completed.
My pH meter is on the fritz, so I can only reliably use my tongue and it doesn't really seem hardly sour at all. Could it be because it's still at 1.040 and the sweet is offsetting the sour?

Here are the pertinent data on the brew:
Mashed at 149F (65C)
OG 1.049
Added 2% table sugar and about 3.25 pounds (1.47Kg) of pink grapefruit juice at flameout
Added 1 packet of Philly Sour
5.5 Gallons (20.8L) in the fermenter
Fermentation started at 72F (22.2C), I've bumped it up to 74F (23.3C) over the last two days

Should I wait and see what happens?
Is this what others have experienced/tasted at this point and I should not worry?
Should I pitch another packet of yeast and some more sugar?
 
Last edited:
MackerelQ said:
I'm on day 4 of my grapefruit gose and I am concerned.

The fermentation is really slow, like it's only dropped two points today.
I took a sample to see how sour it is as I am noticing airlock activity and the gravity has dropped about 10 points in total, so I assumed the souring phase had completed.
My pH meter is on the fritz, so I can only reliably use my tongue and it doesn't really seem hardly sour at all. Could it be because it's still at 1.040 and the sweet is offsetting the sour?

Here are the pertinent data on the brew:
Mashed at 149F (65C)
OG 1.049
Added 2% table sugar and about 3.25 pounds (1.47Kg) of pink grapefruit juice at flameout
Added 1 packet of Philly Sour
5.5 Gallons (20.8L) in the fermenter
Fermentation started at 72F (22.2C), I've bumped it up to 74F (23.3C) over the last two days

Should I wait and see what happens?
Is this what others have experienced/tasted at this point and I should not worry?
Should I pitch another packet of yeast and some more sugar?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't panic yet. It's not unusual for the gravity to stay flat longer with Philly Sour than you'd expect with Sacc.
 
Drewch said:
I wouldn't panic yet. It's not unusual for the gravity to stay flat longer with Philly Sour than you'd expect with Sacc.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply. I think my biggest concern is the lack of sourness and not so much the gravity. I can always pitch something else to finish it off. Not sure what to do to get the pH down.
 
The pH drop is first then alcohol is made. I never tasted the wort just used meter and refractometer.
One packet might have been a slight underpitch but it'll get there.
 
MackerelQ said:
Thanks for the reply. I think my biggest concern is the lack of sourness and not so much the gravity. I can always pitch something else to finish it off. Not sure what to do to get the pH down.
Click to expand...

I've only made a half dozen or so Philly Sour batches. But I've gotten more acidity when I use a significant amount (like up to 20%) of simple sugar.

Edit: based on what I've read on the internet, too, I aim for pitching 1g / L of yeast.
 
DuncB said:
The pH drop is first then alcohol is made. I never tasted the wort just used meter and refractometer.
One packet might have been a slight underpitch but it'll get there.
Click to expand...
Yes, I think I’m solidly into the alcohol production phase. It’s now dropped 10 points in the last 10 hours. Think I’m beyond possibly fixing it if that was at all possible. I’ll give it a taste later today and see what it’s like. Hopefully the less sweetness will make the sourness more pronounced.
 
Drewch said:
I've only made a half dozen or so Philly Sour batches. But I've gotten more acidity when I use a significant amount (like up to 20%) of simple sugar.

Edit: based on what I've read on the internet, too, I aim for pitching 1g / L of yeast.
Click to expand...
I was hoping the grapefruit juice would be enough with the table sugar. There didn’t seem to be much guidance on how much sugar to add. What I read basically said, “it does better with more sugar”, but no actual percentages.

Do you typically use corn sugar or table sugar?
 

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