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Any Lallemand Philly Sour feedback or experience to share?

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OldDogBrewing

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If anyone has enjoyed their experience of Philly Sour enough to want to play around with other Lachanceas, I've just noticed that TYB are now doing a Berkeley Hills blend of them in their Wild collection, WLP4663. Interesting some of their notes - adding 20% glucose to the grist pushes the profile from red apple to stone fruit and produces a bit more acid. Perhaps @Biobrewer can tell us more? Does Philly Sour do the same?

As an aside, good to see TYB expanding their collection of fun bugs, and moving some of their beta releases into the main lines produced at White Labs, which means we actually have a chance of finding them over here in the UK.
This one seems to be more predictable, or TYB has done more research than Lallemand, and it can be repitched
 

BlackfyreBrewing

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If anyone has enjoyed their experience of Philly Sour enough to want to play around with other Lachanceas, I've just noticed that TYB are now doing a Berkeley Hills blend of them in their Wild collection, WLP4663. Interesting some of their notes - adding 20% glucose to the grist pushes the profile from red apple to stone fruit and produces a bit more acid. Perhaps @Biobrewer can tell us more? Does Philly Sour do the same?

As an aside, good to see TYB expanding their collection of fun bugs, and moving some of their beta releases into the main lines produced at White Labs, which means we actually have a chance of finding them over here in the UK.
I would order some to try but it says it's sold out. Now does this strain produce lactic acid and ethanol production like Philly Sour? It mentions lactic acid production but I don't see anything about ethanol production in the description.
 

BlackfyreBrewing

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" Attenuation: 68%-75% "
Forgive me I'm only an amateur, and I don't know much about how these la chancea yeasts work and how the definitionof attenuation applies to them. My understanding of attenuation is it is the percentage of converted sugars; I don't know if it applies only to the conversion of sugars to alcohol; or the conversion of sugar to lactic acid; or both.

So when I have two different la chancea yeasts; one saying it ferments lactic acid and ethanol; and another just saying lactic acid...I don't know that the attenuation percentage alone is an indicator that that particular yeast creates alcohol or doesn't.
 

OldDogBrewing

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I would order some to try but it says it's sold out. Now does this strain produce lactic acid and ethanol production like Philly Sour? It mentions lactic acid production but I don't see anything about ethanol production in the description.
It must be producing some ethanol if it attenuates over 70%, if it doesn't, there will be no room for alcohol production which makes it a pretty hard to use yeast

Forgive me I'm only an amateur, and I don't know much about how these la chancea yeasts work and how the definitionof attenuation applies to them. My understanding of attenuation is it is the percentage of converted sugars; I don't know if it applies only to the conversion of sugars to alcohol; or the conversion of sugar to lactic acid; or both.

So when I have two different la chancea yeasts; one saying it ferments lactic acid and ethanol; and another just saying lactic acid...I don't know that the attenuation percentage alone is an indicator that that particular yeast creates alcohol or doesn't.
I think a part of that sugar goes to acid production but 70% is too high for that, so I understand there is some ethanol production too
 

BlackfyreBrewing

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It must be producing some ethanol if it attenuates over 70%, if it doesn't, there will be no room for alcohol production which makes it a pretty hard to use yeast,


I think a part of that sugar goes to acid production but 70% is too high for that, so I understand there is some ethanol production too
Thank you for the clarification!
 

OldDogBrewing

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Thank you for the clarification!
If it works like Philly sour, the simplest sugars go for lactic acid production and the other ones, more complex, go to alcohol production

And apparently it's a blend of different strains, so it may be more complex than that with some strains maybe producing more acid and other ones more focused on alcohol, although it seems that all the strains are Lacchancea Thermotolerans which if I understood correctly the webinar from Lallemand, Philly sour is a Lachancea but from a diferent "family" and not Thermotolerans
 

BlackfyreBrewing

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If it works like Philly sour, the simplest sugars go for lactic acid production and the other ones, more complex, go to alcohol production

And apparently it's a blend of different strains, so it may be more complex than that with some strains maybe producing more acid and other ones more focused on alcohol, although it seems that all the strains are Lacchancea Thermotolerans which if I understood correctly the webinar from Lallemand, Philly sour is a Lachancea but from a diferent "family" and not Thermotolerans
Good to know! I'd never heard of these strains of yeast before Philly Sour came out I still have a lot to learn.
 

OldDogBrewing

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Good to know! I'd never heard of these strains of yeast before Philly Sour came out I still have a lot to learn.
It's because they don't belong to brewing or wine making, if I'm not wrong, they thrive in fruit and can be transported by fruit flies but without them, they are not found in beer or wine.

I think they started being studied for wine making and made it to brewing thanks to its ability of souring and producing alcohol
 

BlackfyreBrewing

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It's because they don't belong to brewing or wine making, if I'm not wrong, they thrive in fruit and can be transported by fruit flies but without them, they are not found in beer or wine.

I think they started being studied for wine making and made it to brewing thanks to its ability of souring and producing alcohol
Very cool! I've only read stuff about them being in kambiucha
 

Northern_Brewer

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I don't know much about how these la chancea yeasts work and how the definitionof attenuation applies to them.
It's Lachancea, I assume named after Marc-André Lachance, a Canadian biologist who has done a lot of work on yeast systematics and the yeasts involved in the relationships between flowers and their pollinators.

If you see people talking about attenuation, then that implies sugars are turning into alcohol. Some may be diverted into lactate (as humans do when burning glucose when running for instance), but it's mostly alcohol. Vaquero et al 2020 looked at different strains of L. thermotolerans to help bring some acidity to "freshen up" wine from hot climates and found that they produced 7-11% alcohol in must that went to 12% with a "normal" wine yeast. They also suggest that co-fermenting Lachancea with the normal wine yeast gave the best complexity. You can't always read across from what happens in must to beer, but might be worth a go?
 

BlackfyreBrewing

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It's Lachancea, I assume named after Marc-André Lachance, a Canadian biologist who has done a lot of work on yeast systematics and the yeasts involved in the relationships between flowers and their pollinators.

If you see people talking about attenuation, then that implies sugars are turning into alcohol. Some may be diverted into lactate (as humans do when burning glucose when running for instance), but it's mostly alcohol. Vaquero et al 2020 looked at different strains of L. thermotolerans to help bring some acidity to "freshen up" wine from hot climates and found that they produced 7-11% alcohol in must that went to 12% with a "normal" wine yeast. They also suggest that co-fermenting Lachancea with the normal wine yeast gave the best complexity. You can't always read across from what happens in must to beer, but might be worth a go?
Thanks for sharing the info! As far as co fermentations go, I do gotta say, of the three finished batches I've done so far with Philly Sour; my favorite batch so far has been the one that I fermented with some Brettanomyces and Lallemand dry Abbaye yeast after the initial few days of souring had finished. I also added dextrose and lactose to the boil which I think played a role in adding to the complexity of flavors I got.
 

beervoid

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Thanks for sharing the info! As far as co fermentations go, I do gotta say, of the three finished batches I've done so far with Philly Sour; my favorite batch so far has been the one that I fermented with some Brettanomyces and Lallemand dry Abbaye yeast after the initial few days of souring had finished. I also added dextrose and lactose to the boil which I think played a role in adding to the complexity of flavors I got.
Was there any fruit in the brett batch?
Did you transfer the beer to another vessel after adding Brett or just let it age on the yeast and fruit?
 

BlackfyreBrewing

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Was there any fruit in the brett batch?
Did you transfer the beer to another vessel after adding Brett or just let it age on the yeast and fruit?
No fruit in the batch and no transfer. I pitched the Philly Sour after chilling the wort to room temperature. On day four I pitched the brett and the abbaye yeast together. I bottled after about 17 days with a little less than 1/2 cup of table sugar just in case the brett started working hard on the lactose in the bottle so I don't get no bombs.
 

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I've just added 2.5 kg blueberries into 20 liters of wort fermented for one week with Philly Sour. Wil let you know what is happening after few days. ;)
 

OldDogBrewing

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Just brewed my sour IPA a couple hours ago, it has krausen already and some activity, I guess lactic acid production is already going on
 

couchsending

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Just took an almost fully carbed sample of my second beer with this yeast. This one is a little worse and I’m not sure why.

Both ferments have created this almost tobacco like aroma. It’s earthy and honestly really hard to describe. Both ferments were right around the same gravity, 1.044. Pitched 1 pack into 5.5 gallons both times. First was fermented at 68 ambient. Never got above 72 measured internal and second ferment was done at 72 controlled.

Both ferments seemed to stop at 1.013 and around 3.3ph (I’d have to look at my notes on exact pH measurements). Yeast has started to flocc and beers were shockingly clear. (About 7 days in)

I added a considerable amount of fruit to both beers and gravity dropped to 1.007 and sub 3.2ph on both after refermentation. First was organic raspberries that had been frozen for a while then thawed and added. 2nd was a blend of blackberries and blueberries that went through the same process.

I was intrigued by the first one as the earthiness seemed to compliment the raspberries and the tannic aspect of the seeds. Much more depth of character than a typical kettle sour beer.

This one still needs a bit of time before final judgment but that earthiness is more distracting in this one.

I did add 2% dextrose to the first ferment. I did not on the second. First was pils/30% oats. Second was Pils/30% wheat. I did add a small dose of Mosaic to the WP on the second where as the first just had a small dose of noble hops in the kettle.

I’m clearly having no issues with souring using 1 pack. However I’m definitely not getting any sort of stone fruit character. To me this yeast definitely smells “wild” during its ferment which tends to calm down as it finishes. Closest thing I can describe are some of my spontaneous fermentation attempts with both having that red apple aspect to them.

I really want to like this yeast and if I could figure out a way to get more stone fruit and less red apple/earth I’d be stoked. I’m going to try 2 packs next time I just as a little worried it’ll get too sour, which I don’t want. Anyone tried adding some sort of buffer to the wort before pitching to prevent sourness?
 

OldDogBrewing

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Took a sample of mine just now, it's sour but not sharp, it's a really rounded sourness, I'm on day 3 so I wanted to check how it was going and if there is any flavour present, right now is pure orange and peach juice, the orange and grapefruit might be coming from the hops.

I'm really hyped now to taste the final result after fermentation and the dry hop
 

OldDogBrewing

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Today I took another sample because the souring phase is probably finishing so I wanted to see how much sugar it uses for the acid production.

I got an SG of .009 points lower than the OG, I don't know what pH I have because my cheap pH meter just shows random values that change all the time, so not valuable data. But it seems that it went for the glucose I added and has left intact all the malt sugars, interesting.

Sensory speaking, the sourness tastes like freshly squeezed unsweetened orange juice, maybe a bit more sour but it definitely has the same edge to it. I guess I will get even more ester production once the ethanol production starts but I'm already happy with the results and it stills need to have alcohol and a dose of dry hops, I guess the sour perception will go lower as the sweetness goes lower too
 

John Meerse

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About 6 weeks ago I brewed this:

Tart mango beer fermented with Philly Sour.
Intended 5 gal batch:
4lbs 3oz white wheat malt
2lbs 2oz 2-row
2lbs 2oz pilsner
8oz dextrose
1 oz Huell Melon
60 min mash at 150F. No boil, brought to 185F for 15 minutes, chilled to 64F, pitched two packs of Philly Sour straight into the fermenter, without rehydrating. Temp rose to 68F during fermentation. Added 6 lbs mango that was frozen, thawed, boiled/simmered then pureed on day 7. Managed to keg 4 gals on day 25. Final pH 3.32. OG 1.041, FG 1.005.
Tart, not too sour, nice mango in the background. Pours with nice head, but that disappears after 1 min or so.

I've made this beer before as a kettle sour with Goodbelly - the sourness of this is a little more interesting than previous versions, but I'm hard pressed to say there's a big difference. What I really like is that my brew day was over in 1 day for this beer, rather than stretching out over 2 days for the kettle sour version.

I saved half of the yeast cake and spent fruit, and used that to ferment a sour IPA. While the pH dropped to ~4.0, it did not get "sour." I guess repitching is out of the question. I know Lallemand says you can't repitch, but I wanted to see if that was truth, or just marketing. I don't really like buying yeast for a single beer, so I'll probably go back to the Goodbelly method.
 

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Love the faux Berliner I made with this strain, though head retention is very average. Anybody else had issues? It’s not a huge deal really but would like it to be better if possible
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Damn iPhone
 
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