Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[Toxxyc]

So I started using S-04 as I had to buy a lot of yeast in a short time a while ago. I searched for the cheapest yeast I could find and it ended up being bulk bricks of S-04 from a large scale supplier. I ended up buying around 5kgs of S-04 for around ZAR800 per kg. So around ZAR4000 for 5kgs. It works out to around $280 for the lot. VERY cheap. I ended up using it for everything - fermentation, beers, even bread. Only recently did I decide to make a blonde and that was on hand. The blonde turned out so great that it's now one of my favourite yeasts, and I don't think I'll use something else in a hurry when I need a clean fermentation.

Could be QC - who knows?

As a PS: I got a CRAPLOAD of sulphur from a lot of other lager yeasts, even fermenting perfectly in the recommended ranges.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Question for you all. i have been using 34/70 for some warm ferments under pressure but get a lemon like taste from his yeast it seems. First off i thought it was chemistry or maybe too much latic acid. Does anybody get the same and if so do you have a yeast to suggest? I have a Lallamend Diamond version in the fermentor currently to see what difference I get.

It hasn't happened to me, but I've read numerous reports of people getting lemon in their w34/70 brews.

 

[Bohern]

It hasn't happened to me, but I've read numerous reports of people getting lemon in their w34/70 brews.

Thanks. It is subtle so the beer is still drinkable but it is all in the finish. I have done my homework and have not had that issue with any other brew or yeast. At first I was using WAY too much lactic acid to adjust PH and was sure that was what I was getting. for now I am trying a Lallemand Diamond to see how it fares.

 

[bwible]

Question for you all. i have been using 34/70 for some warm ferments under pressure but get a lemon like taste from his yeast it seems. First off i thought it was chemistry or maybe too much latic acid. Does anybody get the same and if so do you have a yeast to suggest? I have a Lallamend Diamond version in the fermentor currently to see what difference I get.

A side story - some years ago my late wife and I were in a brewpub and she ordered an Octoberfest which was one of her favorite beers. She said it tasted lemony and tried to send it back. The bar staff told her there was nothing wrong with it and she just didn’t understand the Octoberfest style. We never went back there again.

 

[bwible]

So guys, I have a question related to this thread. We are fermenting lager strains warm - but why? Is it for the clean fermentation profile, or just because we want true lagers? I'm asking as I made a pseudo pilsner the other day and was too lazy to use lager yeast, so I ended up just using what was right before me - S-04.

I made the beer with pils malt, a bit of melanoidin for colour and a dash of dextrin for head retention. I made it using Perle hops for both bittering and a late addition and when cooled I pitched S-04 at 17°C and it fermented there until completion. I bumped the temp to 20°C and when it sat there for a few days I dropped to 10°C in prep for gelatin fining.

However, life got in the way and I kinda forgot about the beer in there, and after 2 weeks I opened the fermenter, remembered it was in there and hastily kegged it. I pulled a sample and I'll be damned - it has to be the most lager-ish ale I've ever made. It's clean, the hop profile is spot on and while the colour is maybe a bit too dark (too heavy with the melanoidin), it's a really really fine beer. The S-04 fermented SUPER clean at the slightly lower temperatures and from the initial taste I couldn't pick up much issue with the yeast AT ALL.

On the other hand, I've made a true lager not long ago as well, using a good recipe and fermented with Lallemand's Diamond Lager yeast. I made a starter to pitch the correct amounts and after slow fermenting at the yeast's perfect temps (11°C) I lagered the beer for 6 weeks before kegging. It's been in the keg now for a month, and it's only starting to drop it's yeast flavour now. I treated it perfectly, fined it well and for starters, the beer refuses to clear. There's a permanent haze (not chill haze) that doesn't drop. On top of that, there's a definite yeast flavour in there. It's not off, like phenols or whatnot, it actually tastes like yeast. Like sourdough, almost.

Now don't get me wrong, I love me a good lager. I'm a sucker for a pale, clear, easy drinking lager any day of the week and I've made a few really cool ones - but it can't be just me who thinks that maybe lager yeasts are (gasp) overrated?

So my question again - why do we keep sticking to lager yeasts?

This is a good question. I keep coming back to cream ales and reading about cream ales and the history. Ales lost popularity with the immigration of many German immigrants who came to the US and brought their knowlege of lager beers. Lager rose quickly and became the top selling beer. So the American brewers started fermenting cream ales to compete. I think at the time they were making cream ales as golden beers but fermented with ale yeast so the Americans could compete, having a similar beer. And they could turn out their beers faster than the Germans doing traditional lagers and thus gained an advantage. I think some cream ales today are actually lagers (as are some Irish Red ales). But I keep reading about this and going back to it.

 

[Bohern]

My only guess is maybe I am not letting it age / lager long enough.

 

[Toxxyc]

I think some cream ales today are actually lagers (as are some Irish Red ales). But I keep reading about this and going back to it.

Interesting you mention this, I actually prefer my Irish Reds with a lager yeast. My best IRA was made with a Diamond Lager yeast cake a few months ago. That beer tanked FAST.

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting you mention this, I actually prefer my Irish Reds with a lager yeast. My best IRA was made with a Diamond Lager yeast cake a few months ago. That beer tanked FAST.

I have yet to try that yeast. Next order, it will be in the basket!

Did you ferment it warm? How is the flocculation compared to 3470?

Can one abuse it for a tropical stout at 30c room temperature without excessive fusels? I don't like headaches...

 

[bwible]

Interesting you mention this, I actually prefer my Irish Reds with a lager yeast. My best IRA was made with a Diamond Lager yeast cake a few months ago. That beer tanked FAST.

Killian’s being one of the best known examples that is a lager

 

[dmtaylor]

Killian’s being one of the best known examples that is a lager

Killian's is just Coors with about 1% roasted barley added for color. Nothing more. Here is a Coors recipe.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/coors-lite-clone-recipe.654372/

 

[Mutant]

Question for you all. i have been using 34/70 for some warm ferments under pressure but get a lemon like taste from his yeast it seems. First off i thought it was chemistry or maybe too much latic acid. Does anybody get the same and if so do you have a yeast to suggest? I have a Lallamend Diamond version in the fermentor currently to see what difference I get.

I made three different lagers in the spring. I was being lazy and skipped my standard WhiteLabs Czech Lager yeast and used 34/70. First time I had every used a dry yeast. All three ended up with lemon taste. I let them lager for two months and it didn't get any better - finally just dumped all three kegs. Two of these three had previously won a Gold and Silver in the State Fair.

 

[Bohern]

I made three different lagers in the spring. I was being lazy and skipped my standard WhiteLabs Czech Lager yeast and used 34/70. First time I had every used a dry yeast. All three ended up with lemon taste. I let them lager for two months and it didn't get any better - finally just dumped all three kegs. Two of these three had previously won a Gold and Silver in the State Fair.

Sorry you had to dump but thanks for posting. I am glad to know I am not the only one who has had this happen. I have brewed this recipe multiple times and always had the same results even making other tweaks one at a time to narrow down the problem. The final change is I have changed the yeast and have it fermenting now.

 

[TBA]

Traditional Lagers stress me out… last one I made was fermented warm with Diamond. Best lager I ever made. Ready to do another one. I have some S-33 that I am not sure why I bought. Doesn’t seem to be much love for it that I see. I have done a few ales, IPAs with mixed yeast. I am thinking of mixing Diamond and S-33 fermented warm (mid 60s). Anyone want to comment on that idea?

 

[seatazzz]

I used Diamond until the price went up too high on Amazon. I've done one WF lager with S33 and wasn't too happy with it. S23 is what I've been using the last 2 years and it works great. I'm tempted to go back to using 34/70 but I had one bad experience with it when I was first doing WF lagers and it put me off.

 

[Toxxyc]

I have yet to try that yeast. Next order, it will be in the basket!

Did you ferment it warm? How is the flocculation compared to 3470?

Can one abuse it for a tropical stout at 30c room temperature without excessive fusels? I don't like headaches...

So, story time. I made a Diamond starter for a Helles I made for a competition. The Helles turned out so-so, with obvious flaws I can only write down to the yeast. It tasted bready, yeasty and a bit like sour dough. It was very, very mediocre which was a real downer for me as I love lagers, and the Diamond yeast was supposed to be some of the best out there. In hindsight, I am 99% sure there was something wrong with my starter though, so there's that.

Anyway, the Helles was cubed and lagered and immediately following that I poured a cube of Irish Red on top of the yeast cake. Didn't ferment warm (so not really fitting to this thread, we're getting off-topic), but the Irish Red was clean, clear, fresh, crisp and like I expected it to be.

The Helles though... The beer never cleared. Best I could get was a hazy beer that looked like protein haze - even with a proper hot break and gelatin fining and several weeks in the keg. The flavour of the Helles improved as the yeast in suspension (visibly) dropped out, so I'm confident that Diamond Lager yeast has an odd flavour to the yeast itself. That flavour picked back up again in the last glass from the keg I poured yesterday, and it was again full of yeast.

That flavour never presented in the Irish Red, so there's that. Based on the Helles I won't touch Diamond again. Based on the Irish Red, I can't wait to use it again. Price is a thing though - it's really expensive and being a lager yeast, you need at least two packets for a batch. Will I buy it again? I don't think so. I've used other lager yeasts that perform better, and have made better ales than using that, so I'll steer clear from Diamond for now.

PS: I wouldn't abuse it at high temps, unless you can get it under pressure.

I used Diamond until the price went up too high on Amazon. I've done one WF lager with S33 and wasn't too happy with it. S23 is what I've been using the last 2 years and it works great. I'm tempted to go back to using 34/70 but I had one bad experience with it when I was first doing WF lagers and it put me off.

I'm not too fond of S-23. Too fruity for me. S-189 is a bit cleaner but it's a fussy yeast. I've yet to try W34/70 at all.

 

[schmurf]

I have a German pilsner on tap made with Diamond. It's very clean and crisp, the best pilsner I've made so far (not that many to compete with though). Fermented at 18C and about 10psi. I won't say it's crystal clear, but it's very clear.

 

[Miraculix]

Ladies and Gentleman, I have a nw favourite for warm lager fermentation. Imperial Harvest! This yeast clears pretty well, attenuates very well, does NOT throw any off flavours when fermented at room temperature without any control, gives you a hint of sulfur like a good lager yeast should imo, and just creates a great great beer.

And best is, no starter needed. Direct pitch!

 

[bwible]

I have one going with 34/70. Low temp 65 high of 71 down to 65 again. Went from 1.050 to 1.013 in 3 days and 1.012 in 4 days.

 

[applescrap]

So happy to see the thread alive and well. I need to make some brew soon. Please help me moderate the thread as since the app died my participation with it. This is not a place for debate or pompous opinions. I have made that clear from the get go. This is a place for experimentation and discussion. Someone from my ignore list is floating around. Read the debate thread and you will see why this safe space was needed. Cheers and hope you are enjoying your wf Oktoberfests!

 

[Miraculix]

Ladies and Gentleman, I have a nw favourite for warm lager fermentation. Imperial Harvest! This yeast clears pretty well, attenuates very well, does NOT throw any off flavours when fermented at room temperature without any control, gives you a hint of sulfur like a good lager yeast should imo, and just creates a great great beer.

And best is, no starter needed. Direct pitch!

I must add one downside thing though, for harvest.

It had zero hop aroma. I mean really zero. This was supposed to be a test beer for a hop that I never used before (Idaho 7), so I am not sure if it was the hop or the yeast. 20g @ 20 minutes, 30g dry for three days, 18l batch size.

Usually this gives me good hop aroma, but not this time.

Anyway, the beer tastes good yeast-wise, but probably best to use this one for malty beers and not hoppy ones.

Bitterness is on point though.

 

[Toxxyc]

I also have a slight update to a post I made above. I mentioned that I used S-04 to make a pseudo-pilsner (pilsner wort, ale yeast) that turned out good. Down the line (the keg kicked a few weeks ago only), I was able to more and more reliably tell that it was made with an ale yeast, the longer the beer sat in the keg.

It really, really peaked around 4 weeks after kegging (which was 2 weeks after the end of fermentation, which itself was 2 weeks after pitching the yeast), and from there on it felt like it "stalled" a bit.

The lagers I typically make start to get crisper, cleaner, and more refreshing as time goes on, but this one did not. It cleared out really well, but I could tell at the end it was NOT a lager, and just for that I think I'll go back to lager yeasts anyway.

 

[Miraculix]

I also have a slight update to a post I made above. I mentioned that I used S-04 to make a pseudo-pilsner (pilsner wort, ale yeast) that turned out good. Down the line (the keg kicked a few weeks ago only), I was able to more and more reliably tell that it was made with an ale yeast, the longer the beer sat in the keg.

It really, really peaked around 4 weeks after kegging (which was 2 weeks after the end of fermentation, which itself was 2 weeks after pitching the yeast), and from there on it felt like it "stalled" a bit.

The lagers I typically make start to get crisper, cleaner, and more refreshing as time goes on, but this one did not. It cleared out really well, but I could tell at the end it was NOT a lager, and just for that I think I'll go back to lager yeasts anyway.

Maaan I really would love to know what's up with this s04 fermentis thing. Did they change the type of yeast? Did they have to go back to a very old backup and recultivate it? Why is it suddenly so clean? Did they change production processes?

I guess we'll never know... But one thing is for sure, it wasn't always that clean.

 

[Toxxyc]

I overpitch, so maybe that helps as well...

 

[Miraculix]

I overpitch, so maybe that helps as well...

Probably, but... Lager-like wasn't on the menu two years ago when this yeast was feasting on your wort. No matter how much you pitched and how low you fermented it.

 

[dmtaylor]

Probably, but... Lager-like wasn't on the menu two years ago when this yeast was feasting on your wort. No matter how much you pitched and how low you fermented it.

I agree that it really seems to have changed a lot recently. And I also think that because of it, you might really want to try it!

 

[Toxxyc]

Maybe they did just clean it up in the factory then. All I can think of

 

[Shenanigans]

Or they are repacking M36

 

[seatazzz]

Okay all my WF lager-brewing peeps; I think I may have just screwed up big time. Brewed up the new-improved house WF lager recipe this morning (8lbs canadian pilsner and 2lbs Munich II). Only lager yeast I have was under a Munich Helles that was due for kegging (fermented cold), which I did during the brewday; instead of jarring up the slurry and pitching maybe half of it, I just racked the new one (SG at 1.045) onto that huge yeast cake. 2 hours post-rack it's going great guns with about a 1.5" krausen and frenetic action down below. Sitting pretty at 65°. Scared to death I overpitched the hell out of this poor thing and will wind up with some nasty off-flavors; I've done the same thing before and wound up with a drinkable beer, with nothing off; but this is about the 5th generation of this yeast and I'm worried. Anyone else done the same? Planning to brew an IPA on Notty tomorrow that will go in the same ferment fridge at 65, so I can't reduce the temperature on this one or my pipeline will suffer.

 

[wepeeler]

Ladies and Gentleman, I have a nw favourite for warm lager fermentation. Imperial Harvest! This yeast clears pretty well, attenuates very well, does NOT throw any off flavours when fermented at room temperature without any control, gives you a hint of sulfur like a good lager yeast should imo, and just creates a great great beer.

And best is, no starter needed. Direct pitch!

What temp? I've used it 3x for traditional lagers and only had luck the first time. I made a Pilsner, and it was fantastic, but I can't seem to replicate it...

 

[balrog]

Okay all my WF lager-brewing peeps; I think I may have just screwed up big time. Brewed up the new-improved house WF lager recipe this morning (8lbs canadian pilsner and 2lbs Munich II). Only lager yeast I have was under a Munich Helles that was due for kegging (fermented cold), which I did during the brewday; instead of jarring up the slurry and pitching maybe half of it, I just racked the new one (SG at 1.045) onto that huge yeast cake. 2 hours post-rack it's going great guns with about a 1.5" krausen and frenetic action down below. Sitting pretty at 65°. Scared to death I overpitched the hell out of this poor thing and will wind up with some nasty off-flavors; I've done the same thing before and wound up with a drinkable beer, with nothing off; but this is about the 5th generation of this yeast and I'm worried. Anyone else done the same? Planning to brew an IPA on Notty tomorrow that will go in the same ferment fridge at 65, so I can't reduce the temperature on this one or my pipeline will suffer.

Just jumping in to say that "Frenetic Action Down Below" would be a great name for a rock band.

 

[Chetbrews]

Okay all my WF lager-brewing peeps; I think I may have just screwed up big time. Brewed up the new-improved house WF lager recipe this morning (8lbs canadian pilsner and 2lbs Munich II). Only lager yeast I have was under a Munich Helles that was due for kegging (fermented cold), which I did during the brewday; instead of jarring up the slurry and pitching maybe half of it, I just racked the new one (SG at 1.045) onto that huge yeast cake. 2 hours post-rack it's going great guns with about a 1.5" krausen and frenetic action down below. Sitting pretty at 65°. Scared to death I overpitched the hell out of this poor thing and will wind up with some nasty off-flavors; I've done the same thing before and wound up with a drinkable beer, with nothing off; but this is about the 5th generation of this yeast and I'm worried. Anyone else done the same? Planning to brew an IPA on Notty tomorrow that will go in the same ferment fridge at 65, so I can't reduce the temperature on this one or my pipeline will suffer.

This sounds like something similar that I made a few years back. Did a 2.5 gallon batch, pitched around 6-8 oz. Of 34/70 slurry (5th generation) that had just been harvested the day before. Fermented it in my keg with a picobrew rubber lid and airlock in my kitchen that was around 70-72 degrees. That beer was fantastic! I'm guessing yours will be the same. Keep us updated on how it turns out!

 

[Bilsch]

I can't reduce the temperature on this one or my pipeline will suffer.

Unfortunately the only thing that could help, you say is not possible. Might be a good candidate to spund and do that early. You would of course need to be kegging and use a spunding valve.

 

[seatazzz]

Unfortunately the only thing that could help, you say is not possible. Might be a good candidate to spund and do that early. You would of course need to be kegging and use a spunding valve.

I do keg, and that just gave me a great idea. I can keg this as soon as the krausen drops (from the looks of things right now, in about 2 days, yikes) then stick it in the kegerator to finish. I don't have a spunding valve but I can just let it ride.

 

[Bilsch]

I do keg, and that just gave me a great idea. I can keg this as soon as the krausen drops (from the looks of things right now, in about 2 days, yikes) then stick it in the kegerator to finish. I don't have a spunding valve but I can just let it ride.

Do you have a way to check the pressure in the keg and vent as necessary at least?

IMO if you transfer off the yeast cake and crash the temp at the same time you run the high risk of stalling out. Max safe temperature drop would be about 1°C per day. If you have fermented to past high kreusen at 65°F then best to just hold it there until it has finished fermenting and is carbonated.

 

[Skinner222]

I'm warm fermenting an Oktoberfest with 34/70. OG of 1.052, temp was approximately 60-61F for the duration. The gravity is now 1.014 and has been sitting there for a day. I'm letting the temp increase for a few days then will keg it and chill to around 40F (my keezer temp.) I'm a bit concerned about the FG. Attenuation is only 72% which is low for 34/70 and FG should have been in the 1.009 range. Could it be my mash schedule? Protein rest at 132F for 20, rest at 144 for 45 and rest at 158 for 30, then mashout at 176 for 5. Thoughts?

Thanks!
K

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm warm fermenting an Oktoberfest with 34/70. OG of 1.052, temp was approximately 60-61F for the duration. The gravity is now 1.014 and has been sitting there for a day. I'm letting the temp increase for a few days then will keg it and chill to around 40F (my keezer temp.) I'm a bit concerned about the FG. Attenuation is only 72% which is low for 34/70 and FG should have been in the 1.009 range. Could it be my mash schedule? Protein rest at 132F for 20, rest at 144 for 45 and rest at 158 for 30, then mashout at 176 for 5. Thoughts?

Your attenuation is 73% which is totally normal for W-34/70. I get an average of 73%. I had a batch go from 1.055 to 1.014. It's just done. I'm not sure why you expected 1.009. With other lager yeasts you can get that low, but not with this one. Maybe try S-189 next time, that one averages 81% attenuation which would give you... 1.010, or maybe 1.009 on a good day.

Cheers.

 

[Skinner222]

Thanks Dave. I was just going by the 80-84% attenuation from the Fermentis website. I'm sure the software is using those numbers as well. But I realize those numbers are dependent on many variables. Appreciate your feedback.

Cheers!
K

 

[VikeMan]

I was just going by the 80-84% attenuation from the Fermentis website. I'm sure the software is using those numbers as well. But I realize those numbers are dependent on many variables.

80-84% does seem a little ambitious as an average for 34/70, but you are correct... there are other variables. Grain Bill, Mash Temp, and Mash Length are all players.

 

[Bilsch]

Attenuation is primarily determined by the mash and you spent a lot of time well below the gelatinization temp of the malt we are getting these days, especially German ones. Sadly your beta was mostly gone by the time you crossed that line.

I suggest you mash in at high beta and hold for 45min, up to alpha rest then glycoprotein rest and out. 34/70 will go as low as the sugar profile allows. Your job is to set that correctly.

 

[VikeMan]

I suggest you mash in at high beta and hold for 45min, up to alpha rest then glycoprotein rest and out. 34/70 will go as low as the sugar profile allows. Your job is to set that correctly.

What's your recommended temperature and time for a glycoprotein rest?