Warm Fermented Lager Thread

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Miraculix

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I bottled this today, after a 2 day dry hop with simcoe and chinook. FG was 1.008, about 3,8% abv, which is right where I wanted it to be. Nice session strength! The beer smelled amazing! Alcohol free week this week, so no taste test unfortunately, but I have high hopes for this one. If this is going to taste great then I´m pretty sure that my theory about late additions might be actually true (that they are really unnecessary if dry hopped).

The 3470 Yeast Cake was pretty solid, I was quite surprised to see this, after all it is a lager yeast and supposed to be powdery. Let's see how it is going to behave in the bottle.
I tried my rush carbonated sampling bottle today (5 days on the heater :D) and it is not bad, but lacking any body. It is an easy drinker, bitterness is spot on, it is clean and it has a nice American Hop character from the Simcoe and Chinook (although I might up the dry hop a little bit next time). I will add some medium crystal in the next attempt, to bring out some body. OVerall, an easy drinker with a clean and nice and hoppy character. The lack of body comes from the session strength (about 3,8% abv) and the lack of any speciality malt. Only Pilsener and Vienna. It was meant to be the starting point for the evaluation process, and this is what I got. It is a good beer, if you like it a bit dry and thin but hoppy :D
 

a_gunslinger

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In general, what flavor changes can one expect doing a warmer temp lager?
 

Northern_Brewer

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Miraculix

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Miraculix

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Curiously enough they never fermented below 12°C. Basically they never compared the results with an actual cold fermentation. Who was it that said "I only believe in statistics I doctored myself?" :p
I understand your scepticism, but I don't know how a clean profile at 12c could be cleaner below it. I mean, clean is pretty much clean, isn't it?

On the other side... I read a lot about lutra tasting like a lager which might be true if you have nothing to compare it against, but compared to a nice German lager, nope, lutra does not taste like that.

So the same process of false confirmation might be in action here.

But to be fair, I just had yesterday the first beer of my 15c fermentation 3470 brew from my latest batch and I honestly cannot see how this could get any cleaner. It is just clean.

Actually boringly clean, but still clean.
 

Nubiwan

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I do 58-60 degree ferments because thats my steady ambient temp in basement. I can lager to freezing in my porch or garage is even colder.

BIAB recipe

10 lbs pils
1 lb vienna
.5 lb munich

Saaz hop at 60, 20 and 5 mins

Just under 7 gallons in fermentor, started with just over 8.
Mashed 2 hours - i got busy doing ther stuff
Boiled 60 minutes
OG is 1.049
Cold groundwater, so IC got wort down to 62 degrees
Expecting an FG of 10-12 considering long mash

Pitched S-23 at 62 degrees. It only started taking off after72 hours.
Temp is now sitting at 58

Questions:
Diacetyl rest when and for how long?
Ok to lager or cold crash?
If i go dirctly to bottle condition and carbonate, then store in fridge, is that lagering?
 
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InspectorJon

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Nubiwan

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Nubiwan

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I do 58-60 degree ferments because thats my steady ambient temp in basement. I can lager to freezing in my porch or garage is even colder.

BIAB recipe

10 lbs pils
1 lb vienna
.5 lb munich

Saaz hop at 60, 20 and 5 mins

Just under 7 gallons in fermentor, started with just over 8.
Mashed 2 hours - i got busy doing ther stuff
Boiled 60 minutes
OG is 1.049
Cold groundwater, so IC got wort down to 62 degrees
Expecting an FG of 10-12 considering long mash

Pitched S-23 at 62 degrees. It only started taking off after72 hours.
Temp is now sitting at 58

Questions:
Diacetyl rest when and for how long?
Ok to lager or cold crash?
If i go dirctly to bottle condition and carbonate, then store in fridge, is that lagering?
Man - did an SG tonight. Sure is putting along slow that lager yeast. My first time with a lager yeast. I brew just about everything with US-05. Its not going to give up on me is it? Was rather expecting fermentation to accelerate, but it's just being very steady.

Really liked the taste from the sample I took. Is Saaz really that hoppy? My first time with it too. Real bitter sweetness to it. Got high hopes for this baby.
 

seatazzz

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Okay, y'all can leave your comments if you wish; but last weekend I did something that *might* have turned out a disaster, but didn't. Had plans to have some friends over on Friday night, was a kind of last-minute thing; pipeline was low, so on the spur of the moment Thursday night I kegged the latest WF lager that I brewed the previous Saturday. Yes, 6 days on the yeast, with minimal cold crash (<24 hours). Plans fell through as they sometimes do. Lager already kegged, and I was jonesing for some, the last batch having kicked. Force carbed for a day, then tapped on Saturday morning. OMG, what a good one it is too. Bit of a "fresh" taste, not bad. Good malt backbone, and the Crystal hops I'm currently having a love-fest with did it right. I usually leave my WF lagers on the yeast about 2 weeks before kegging, but I never let it sit too long in the keg before tapping because I always seem to run out too soon. Damn happy with it.

For those considering this process, I would stress that pitching plenty of healthy yeast (either fresh or slurry) is key; even overpitching to a degree. I usually get a full quart mason jar of slurry from each batch, and for the next one the entire jar goes in. If I'm using fresh (I only use dry yeast, current fave is S23) I always do a 2+ hour vitality starter with fresh wort. The first batch isn't always stellar, but subsequent batches with the slurry are incredible. I also never ferment these over 64 degrees, usually between 60 & 62; at that temperature (as long as sanititation, and as aforesaid plenty of healthy yeast is pitched) a diacetyl rest isn't necessary (I've only had it once, and a nice warm rest got rid of it; as I recall that batch was fermented about 58). Of course I haven't had the luxury of a BJCP judge tasting my finished product (except 2 years ago when I won a silver medal with one), but to my well-seasoned palate it's pretty damn good and what I want for a nice light lager. Purists may argue that since these are fermented at ale temps, it's not a lager, it's a blonde, but if it looks, smells, and tastes like a lager, it is, to me. End of TL:DR.
 

marc1

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Man - did an SG tonight. Sure is putting along slow that lager yeast. My first time with a lager yeast. I brew just about everything with US-05. Its not going to give up on me is it? Was rather expecting fermentation to accelerate, but it's just being very steady.

Really liked the taste from the sample I took. Is Saaz really that hoppy? My first time with it too. Real bitter sweetness to it. Got high hopes for this baby.
How much yeast did you pitch?
 

marc1

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For sure underpitched. Will it carry on? I got some slurry from a previous ale batch. Don't have more s-23 on hand. Not sure I should just leave my lager. Took a couple days to get going.
That's a possible explanation for the sluggishness of the fermentation. You can see how it does and if it stalls you could try adding the ale yeast slurry.
 

RePete

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A follow up on the M54 California Lager Yeast. It does have a bit more of a fruity taste. The first batch was the Dortmunder lager, and I didn’t care for it in that one. Saflager 34/70 works better for that beer, as it has a cleaner profile. But after that I used it for a Zombie Dust clone, and it worked really well. Same for the next batch, which was malty. So, it seems like a good option for beers where I might normally use S-04 ale yeast. It did ok with cooler temps, just took longer.
 

Andrew Hodgson

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10lb pilsner malt 7 gal h2o

mash 60 minutes

boil 90 minutes

@90 .5oz independence 1oz citra
@60 .5oz independence 1 oz citra
@45 20g saaz
@30 20g saaz
@15 20g saaz

cool, pitch two pouches 34/70
SG 1.045
bottled this today ferm day 14. FG 1.014 ABV 4% sample tastes good. Now carb and patience.
 

Nubiwan

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It only bothers me when people tout this as some form of "success" while making it sound like anybody who doesn't do the same must be stupid or something, that's all. You like drinking beer that tastes like paint thinner? Fine, knock yourself out, just don't expect me or anybody else to do the same just because you do.
Stella used to be a good tasting lager. Then Bud got hold of it, and now its a lousy lager, according to many europeans, yet still a top seller in the US. I havent had one in sometime, but I do remember having some in Europe in the 90s, and it was superb. The current US stuff served on tap, and in bottles is a slimmed down version of the original taste imho. Still, it might have been a top selling beer in the us for a year or two. No one drinks it in europe any more. How many north Americans ever enjoyed the original belgian Stella? I Dunno. Funny thing taste.

I can think of lots of north american lagers, and european ones for that matter, that are likely brewed in traditional lager fashion, and simply do not taste all that great in fairness. Heineken can taste ok one day, and like skunk city a month later. Beers on tap generally taste different to the same beer in a bottle. Often, not better imho.

Personal taste also develops, and or simply just changes too. I had a Grolsch years ago, and my recollection was that it was pretty unexceptional. Had one last week, and whether or not its ever been considered a good lager or not, i thought it was damn fine. Like many other foods we eat or drink, the same beer can taste different from one day to the next, from one bar to the next, from one city or country to the next, in a can, on tap, in a bottle. Same beer, 5-6 different tastes i bet. All lagered.

You cant just go spouting you will make good lager because you've made it the way germans did. Nor thats its not a lager because its brewed warmer. Lagering simply implies storing beer longer cooler. You can also do that in a bottle. Plenty of traditionally lagered lagers - by renowned brewers - can taste absolutetly rubbish.

Saying people are making paint thinner and liking it. An eyebrow raiser on any brewing forum.
 

Vale71

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You cant just go spouting you will make good lager because you've made it the way germans did.
I never did that as a matter of fact. It's just a bogus argument you're trying to use to "prove" that I'm wrong. Of course you can make any beer taste like crap as there is a lot more than just fermentation temperature involved in making good beer, all of which has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making.

Nor thats its not a lager because its brewed warmer. Lagering simply implies storing beer longer cooler. You can also do that in a bottle.
We can argue semantics all we want but it's a fact that when people label a beer as "lager" there is a lot more involved than just "cool storage".

Plenty of traditionally lagered lagers - by renowned brewers - can taste absolutetly rubbish.
A fact that, while sadly true, is again completely irrelevant.

Saying people are making paint thinner and liking it. An eyebrow raiser on any brewing forum.
Yeah, lots of people don't like to hear the truth and not just on homebrew forums.
 

Miraculix

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I never did that as a matter of fact. It's just a bogus argument you're trying to use to "prove" that I'm wrong. Of course you can make any beer taste like crap as there is a lot more than just fermentation temperature involved in making good beer, all of which has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making.



We can argue semantics all we want but it's a fact that when people label a beer as "lager" there is a lot more involved than just "cool storage".



A fact that, while sadly true, is again completely irrelevant.


Yeah, lots of people don't like to hear the truth and not just on homebrew forums.
I still have no idea where you got that paint thinner idea from. I brewed a warmer lager (around 16-17 c) recently with 3470 and it is as clean as it can get. No weird off flavours, no fusels, nothing bad at all, just clean.

Granted, use the wrong lager yeast strain and you'd probably end up in fruit ester fusel hell, but with the recommended strains, there's no problem at all at higher temperatures.
 

Nubiwan

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I never did that as a matter of fact. It's just a bogus argument you're trying to use to "prove" that I'm wrong. Of course you can make any beer taste like crap as there is a lot more than just fermentation temperature involved in making good beer, all of which has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making.



We can argue semantics all we want but it's a fact that when people label a beer as "lager" there is a lot more involved than just "cool storage".



A fact that, while sadly true, is again completely irrelevant.


Yeah, lots of people don't like to hear the truth and not just on homebrew forums.
You can still make very decent beer with very simple processes, and terrible beers come from breweries with million dollar equipment and resources. We agree on this, so what is your point?

Lots of brewing myths and legends propagated by those who've usually invested fortunes in the hobby, and believe that you can't make good beer without the right equipment, temp controls, pitching rates, decoction, etc. Its simply not the case, as proven by many long time home brewers.

Sure, be nice to have optimal control over process, but there are plenty of examples of perfectly good beer made in simple circumstances. None of it paint thinner.
 

Snark_Wolf_Brewing

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I still have no idea where you got that paint thinner idea from. I brewed a warmer lager (around 16-17 c) recently with 3470 and it is as clean as it can get. No weird off flavours, no fusels, nothing bad at all, just clean.

Granted, use the wrong lager yeast strain and you'd probably end up in fruit ester fusel hell, but with the recommended strains, there's no problem at all at higher temperatures.
THIS.gif
 

Nubiwan

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Man - did an SG tonight. Sure is putting along slow that lager yeast. My first time with a lager yeast. I brew just about everything with US-05. Its not going to give up on me is it? Was rather expecting fermentation to accelerate, but it's just being very steady.

Really liked the taste from the sample I took. Is Saaz really that hoppy? My first time with it too. Real bitter sweetness to it. Got high hopes for this baby.
For the sake of record, my fermentation was rather in reverse of what I normally observe with a dry Ale Yeast (US-05 primarily). Which is 6-18 hours before starts going, but typically accelerates into a rapid fermentation done in 3-4 days, then tapers off to finish.

Lager Fermentation really started slowly. Lag of 72 hours with a slight, slight airlock budge. Airlock started laboured bubbling on day 3. Steadily bubbled for 6-7 days 3 times a minute type thing. Gravity went from .048 to .025. Last 3 days, fermentation took off and observed a bubble every 6-10 seconds. Finished off at .010 SG. Temps was 58 degrees in Fermenter. Bumped to 62 degrees last couple of days.

Don't know how this fits into regular lager yeast curves. Guessing its not normal.

Beer tasted good after crash, and prior to bottling. Lagering will happen in bottle, if I don't suck them back first :)
 

sweetcell

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after almost a decade of brewing, i recently brewed my first lagers. like many others, i was concerned about the so-called "need" to ferment cool. thanks to indoctrination by the brulosophy crew i finally decided to give warm-lager brewing a go.

for my first batch, i made something pilsner'ish with an american twist: 93% Best pils, 5% aromatic, 2% acidulated = 1.057 OG. 18 IBUs of Polaris @ 60, and a combo of Loral, Palisades and a touch of Polaris at 5 mins, flame-out and hop-stand. pitched two packs of rehydrated S23 into one fermenter and two packs of rehydrated 34/70 into the other. started at 57*F in a 58*F ambient cellar. fermentation was slow to take off (under-pitched?), took a little over 48 hours to really get going. i didn't control temps, just let it rise naturally, both got up to 65*F on their own. when things started to slow down i raised the temps to 68. FG on both was 1.010, implying 6.3% ABV. fined with gelatin, my first time doing that. the two kegs are currently sitting outside in the PNW winter/early spring, where temps are rarely above 45*F here in the mountains and come close to freezing every night. i'll move them to my kegerator as soon as i have space.

batch #2: made a doppelbock, 1.082 OG via 67% GW Munich 1, 16% Best pils, 9% Best Munich 2 (Dark), 5% melanoidin, 3% caramunich. 23 IBUs of Polaris at 60. Pitched 5 gals on top of the S23 cake and 5 gals on the 34/70 cake (didn't bother cleaning the fermenters - just pitched directly in after racking the previous batch out). these two batches took off very quickly, full-on fermentation the next morning (after a very late-night pitch...) the beers are current finishing up, they're on day 4 and activity has started to slow down. the S23 peaked at 63*F and the 34/70 got itself up to 65*F. i'll goose up the temps a few degrees when things really start to peter off.

i will add tasting notes once i taste 'em :)
 

Nubiwan

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after almost a decade of brewing, i recently brewed my first lagers. like many others, i was concerned about the so-called "need" to ferment cool. thanks to indoctrination by the brulosophy crew i finally decided to give warm-lager brewing a go.

for my first batch, i made something pilsner'ish with an american twist: 93% Best pils, 5% aromatic, 2% acidulated = 1.057 OG. 18 IBUs of Polaris @ 60, and a combo of Loral, Palisades and a touch of Polaris at 5 mins, flame-out and hop-stand. pitched two packs of rehydrated S23 into one fermenter and two packs of rehydrated 34/70 into the other. started at 57*F in a 58*F ambient cellar. fermentation was slow to take off (under-pitched?), took a little over 48 hours to really get going. i didn't control temps, just let it rise naturally, both got up to 65*F on their own. when things started to slow down i raised the temps to 68. FG on both was 1.010, implying 6.3% ABV. fined with gelatin, my first time doing that. the two kegs are currently sitting outside in the PNW winter/early spring, where temps are rarely above 45*F here in the mountains and come close to freezing every night. i'll move them to my kegerator as soon as i have space.

batch #2: made a doppelbock, 1.082 OG via 67% GW Munich 1, 16% Best pils, 9% Best Munich 2 (Dark), 5% melanoidin, 3% caramunich. 23 IBUs of Polaris at 60. Pitched 5 gals on top of the S23 cake and 5 gals on the 34/70 cake (didn't bother cleaning the fermenters - just pitched directly in after racking the previous batch out). these two batches took off very quickly, full-on fermentation the next morning (after a very late-night pitch...) the beers are current finishing up, they're on day 4 and activity has started to slow down. the S23 peaked at 63*F and the 34/70 got itself up to 65*F. i'll goose up the temps a few degrees when things really start to peter off.

i will add tasting notes once i taste 'em :)
Thanks for posting. I’ll definitely keep my eye on the thread for your update. I stuck a bottle in the fridge today. It’s cradle snatching I know, but I can’t wait. Gonna give one a try...... lol. Will report back full findings on a week or so. Let you know how my current sample goes.....
 

Northern_Brewer

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FYI, Chris White is giving a talk on "Pseudo Lager Brewing for Summer Styles" at 2.30 EDT (6.30 GMT) today in the lecture series from the Brewers Journal Canada

I also like the look of the one tomorrow from Lallemand's Avi Shayevitz on yeast biodiversity.

C$17.23 inc tax to register for three days of lectures.
 

Nubiwan

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FYI, Chris White is giving a talk on "Pseudo Lager Brewing for Summer Styles" at 2.30 EDT (6.30 GMT) today in the lecture series from the Brewers Journal Canada

I also like the look of the one tomorrow from Lallemand's Avi Shayevitz on yeast biodiversity.

C$17.23 inc tax to register for three days of lectures.
Are the lectures good/interesting. Can you register and view later? Recordings?
 

Northern_Brewer

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Pass - I couldn't do it in the end, I got on the wrong end of a 3-hour work call....
 

Texas

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Let's say I want to do a WF Lager at 72F. Is pressure fermented required?
 
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Panderson1

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Going to brew a 12 gal Munich Helles. Will start reading thread.

Any quick tips? I have a Fermzilla and spunding blowtie valve. It would be cool to try and ferment under pressure and warmer. From what I hear this will speed up the process. I still would have to "lager" it for a few weeks after it's finished fermenting?
 

Chetbrews

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Going to brew a 12 gal Munich Helles. Will start reading thread.

Any quick tips? I have a Fermzilla and spunding blowtie valve. It would be cool to try and ferment under pressure and warmer. From what I hear this will speed up the process. I still would have to "lager" it for a few weeks after it's finished fermenting?
I have turned out a pretty crushable lager that has taken about 3 weeks from grain to tap using a fining agent like gelatin or biofine to drop out the yeast in the beer. Time and patience is your friend when it comes to lagering. One of my best beers was a warm pressurized fermented Oktoberfest that I forgot about that lagered in my keezer for a few months. Best beer that I have made in my 10+ years of homebrewing.
 

ba-brewer

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Going to brew a 12 gal Munich Helles. Will start reading thread.

Any quick tips? I have a Fermzilla and spunding blowtie valve. It would be cool to try and ferment under pressure and warmer. From what I hear this will speed up the process. I still would have to "lager" it for a few weeks after it's finished fermenting?
Warm speeds up the yeast and pressure slows it down, so it is sort of a wash as far as time goes for fermentation. Pressure should produce a cleaner beer so maybe less lager time.
 

Gusso

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Let's say I want to do a WF Lager at 72F. Is pressure fermented required?
I wouldn't say it's required but that's what I did this past Sunday. I used a single pack of 34/70 and my gravity has dropped from 1.066 to 1.013 in about 60 hours since pitching (under 25 psi).
 

Texas

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I wouldn't say it's required but that's what I did this past Sunday. I used a single pack of 34/70 and my gravity has dropped from 1.066 to 1.013 in about 60 hours since pitching (under 25 psi).
What was the temperature?
 

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