Ale Yeast Under Pressure

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wdavis2003

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I'm planning on brewing a Blonde Ale this weekend and debating on pressure fermenting using Cellarscience's Cali ale yeast. I pressure ferment all my lagers but when I pressure fermented a Kolsch I didn't like the results. I want my Blonde Ale to be crisp and clean like a lager. I also want/need the fermentation done and the beer kegged in no more than 10 days. Preferably sooner.

What results have you had pressure fermenting with Ale yeast?
 
Will let you know in about 2 weeks. I just made 5 GAL of Hefeweizen which is currently under 8PSI @ 66°F. I have the typical sulfuric odors so I know fermentation is going well.

From what I hear when you pressure ferment ales, you can suppress the yeast characteristics quite a bit so if that is something you're going for then you should pressure ferment. However there really don't seem to be too many benefits besides that. Anyways, will let you know how it goes when the beer is done.

I believe in order to get the ale crisp and clear, you'll need to cold crash and probably use gelatin. That's what I would try and do instead of pressure ferment.
 
That is what happened to my Kolsch. It took away what I like about the Kolsch style and that's the yeast character.

Going to leave the spunding valve open for 24 to 36 hours then apply pressure. That should somewhat get me the best of both worlds. Was hoping for more feedback on the topic but I guess it's not a popular thing to do.

Let me know how yours turns out.
 
I don't put ales under any pressure until a few days into it.
 
I don't put ales under any pressure until a few days into it.
Don't Conicals provide natural pressure for ales? Sounds like a natural effect for commercial brewers.

Would like to know more about your process. When do you put pressure into the tank? (how many days exactly) and how much pressure?
 
Don't Conicals provide natural pressure for ales? Sounds like a natural effect for commercial brewers.
Not really. You have the effect of hydrostatic pressure from the depth of the fermenter which traps co2. The yeast will change it's metabolic pathway as the amount of dissolved co2 is increased. The conical shape may increase the churning/circulation during fermentation and aid in capturing yeast, but the shape does not increase pressure per se, it's more about the depth.

Samuel Smith supposedly ferments in shallow open fermenters to increase ester production. Shallow wide fermenters reduce the amount of co2 in solution. I have found that pressure fermenting ales is counter productive and I've notice lower attenuation when I pressure ferment S04 yeast.
 
Not really. You have the effect of hydrostatic pressure from the depth of the fermenter which traps co2. The yeast will change it's metabolic pathway as the amount of dissolved co2 is increased. The conical shape may increase the churning/circulation during fermentation and aid in capturing yeast, but the shape does not increase pressure per se, it's more about the depth.

Samuel Smith supposedly ferments in shallow open fermenters to increase ester production. Shallow wide fermenters reduce the amount of co2 in solution. I have found that pressure fermenting ales is counter productive and I've notice lower attenuation when I pressure ferment S04 yeast.
I'm currently fermenting a hefe, about 4 days in now. I had pressure at 8psi. Dropped it to 5psi a day ago. Any issues with change in pressure during active fermentation? Will 5psi for another week cause issues?

I am going with less of a banana taste because I'm creating a lemon lime flavor. That is why I went forward with pressure fermentation.
 
I'm currently fermenting a hefe, about 4 days in now. I had pressure at 8psi. Dropped it to 5psi a day ago. Any issues with change in pressure during active fermentation? Will 5psi for another week cause issues?

I am going with less of a banana taste because I'm creating a lemon lime flavor. That is why I went forward with pressure fermentation.
It won't hurt the yeast any, not sure how it will effect the clove/banana flavors. I think quick changes in temperature might not be good, but not so much pressure.
 
@odie I was looking at your POST and noticed when you started brewing hefeweizen that it smelled bad. Well I got a batch and IT STINKS!!

What was your experience clearing this out? Do you know if the odor dissipates over time or is there a specific method you use to clear it up?
 
Learn your yeast and don't let anyone including me tell you that pressure crushes ale yeast, it doesn't. Wort composition, starting gravity, pitch rate, dry pitch vs liquid yeast, naturally building pressure, applied pressure from pitch, available headspace, etc... affect the yeast to a degree and thus the results. Yeast can be tricked into doing what you want, your in charge when you learn your strain. Take risks, be bold, do split batches, make your yeast work for you, not the other way around. Make the yeast play the victim.
 
What are the perceived benefits of fermenting ale yeast under pressure? Higher temperatures making it finish in 2 days instead of 3? At what cost? What’s the hurry? From what we understand about fermenting under pressure it seems to be a practice not really suited to ale yeast as it risks affecting the yeast profile, which, presumably, was the aim in choosing strain x in the first place. That’s been my experience. I guess it depends on the beer style. If using a hectare of hops and fermenting under pressure, several packs of cheap baker’s yeast is going to work just as well as anything else.
 
@odie I was looking at your POST and noticed when you started brewing hefeweizen that it smelled bad. Well I got a batch and IT STINKS!!

What was your experience clearing this out? Do you know if the odor dissipates over time or is there a specific method you use to clear it up?
Well I drank it. That was a while ago but I don't recall it being bad or anything.

I don't worry about the "stinky" while the yeast is doing it's job. hefe yeast is going to be VERY expressive. it's just it's nature.
 
Learn your yeast and don't let anyone including me tell you that pressure crushes ale yeast, it doesn't. Wort composition, starting gravity, pitch rate, dry pitch vs liquid yeast, naturally building pressure, applied pressure from pitch, available headspace, etc... affect the yeast to a degree and thus the results. Yeast can be tricked into doing what you want, your in charge when you learn your strain. Take risks, be bold, do split batches, make your yeast work for you, not the other way around. Make the yeast play the victim.
Great reply and duly noted.
 
What are the perceived benefits of fermenting ale yeast under pressure? Higher temperatures making it finish in 2 days instead of 3? At what cost? What’s the hurry? From what we understand about fermenting under pressure it seems to be a practice not really suited to ale yeast as it risks affecting the yeast profile, which, presumably, was the aim in choosing strain x in the first place. That’s been my experience. I guess it depends on the beer style. If using a hectare of hops and fermenting under pressure, several packs of cheap baker’s yeast is going to work just as well as anything else.
Well I'm doing a Blonde Ale, so I want a crisp clean final product with little to no yeast character. It's not like I'm fermenting a style that benefits from yeast character. It's Cali Ale yeast. When I ferment my lagers under pressure, this is the result I get. So I'd like to see if I can get the same result in the Blonde. And yes, finishing fermentation quicker is also what I'm looking for.

The plan is the pitch an IPA on top of the yeast cake from this brew, so I want to use an Ale yeast. I realize I could easily pitch a lager yeast and call it a Blonde Ale and nobody would be the wiser. I also want to ferment the IPA under pressure so I'd like to see how well it performs in those conditions.

And my last reason is that I did not have success fermenting with Kolsch yeast under pressure so I want to see what everyone else's results were fermenting Ale's under pressure.
 
Well I'm doing a Blonde Ale, so I want a crisp clean final product with little to no yeast character. It's not like I'm fermenting a style that benefits from yeast character. It's Cali Ale yeast. When I ferment my lagers under pressure, this is the result I get. So I'd like to see if I can get the same result in the Blonde. And yes, finishing fermentation quicker is also what I'm looking for.

The plan is the pitch an IPA on top of the yeast cake from this brew, so I want to use an Ale yeast. I realize I could easily pitch a lager yeast and call it a Blonde Ale and nobody would be the wiser. I also want to ferment the IPA under pressure so I'd like to see how well it performs in those conditions.

And my last reason is that I did not have success fermenting with Kolsch yeast under pressure so I want to see what everyone else's results were fermenting Ale's under pressure.
So your aim is to subdue the ale profile to get a more lager-like result then. I'm not sure what 'Cali ale' is, but it sounds like it might be WLP001 California Ale. If so, it's already pretty neutral and suitable for fermenting a lager-like beer under normal fermentation conditions. So you do run the risk of ending up with something very bland, if not careful. You might consider pitching at a high rate if fermenting under pressure too, as the conditions are not great for yeast production either, which, in turn, risks scuppering the IPA fermentation downstream. On this occasion, you might be better off doing as recommended already and fermenting without pressure then spund to naturally carbonate towards to end of fermentation. Naturally carbonating under these conditions only takes a day or so. Focus more on beer conditioning, that's where you'll save most time. Natural carbonation then finings, e.g. gelatine, to help clear the beer should be enough to have it done within 10 days. Ideally you'd repitch the yeast before then.
 
Pressure is just another tool in the toolbox. It can be used to our advantage while utilizing the ancillary benefits of purging kegs and closed xfers for premium packaging results and product stability. All yeast behave differently, but I'm going to use Verdant as an example. Pressure fermenting in the home brewing community is said to suppress esters, especially with ale yeast and I have definitely not experienced this. If you watch the craft beer channels collab with Verdant, in the video they clearly state that they have 19.7 foot tall fermenters. With generous headspace, the static pressure of that fermenter would likely be ~5-6psi. I have found even at 15psi top pressure in my all rounders that Verdant has plenty of esters to go around and it's actually quite difficult to use pressure to subdue them.

My own experience is that Verdant ales come out of pressure fermentation relatively mature, don't require a lot of mopping up after themselves, they are carbonated and have a wonderful mouthfeel and a great nose. The keg gets purged and the beer is really stable in the keg with no additives required, these are all wins for me. Experimenting and playing with 10 gal split batches from the same wort, has been fun and eye opening for me. It is just another very elegant tool in our toolbox that today's homebrewers can take advantage of. Cheers
 
I'm not sure what 'Cali ale' is, but it sounds like it might be WLP001 California Ale
Yes, Cellarscience Cali yeast

So you do run the risk of ending up with something very bland, if not careful
Going for a 'hoppy blonde'. Would love to have the hops steal the show. Kinda like a Cold IPA or IPL. We'll see what happens

I don't see the harm in pressure fermenting. Like Red over White said, just another tool in the toolbox. Was hoping for a little more feedback on everybody's experience but I definitely appreciate the input.
 
Pressure is a useful tool, of course, but I'm still not convinced fermenting ale yeast under pressure offers any benefits. Just seems to be a case of 'because I can'. In which case it isn't an 'elegant tool' at all. The list of perceived benefits can be had by simply closing the FV/spunding towards to end of fermentation. I'm not sure if Verdant ferment under pressure. I doubt it, though. Note Verdant is a top fermenting ale yeast so how tall FVs might be is not necessarily a valid assumption that the yeast are fermented under 5-6 psi commercially. Concerns about high hydrostatic pressures in commercial vessels are more to do with stress on the yeast in the cone post fermentation. My own experience with Verdant yeast was so underwhelming that I didn't bother repitching it, as initially planned. That was fermenting an English bitter, mind. And that's my experience of fermenting ale yeast under pressure, with the yeast and recipes I use. I think if there were genuine benefits in fermenting ale yeast under pressure from the start of the process, commercial brewers would have realised a long time ago. Like they did with lager yeast.

I don't understand what is meant by 'mopping up after itself'. When yeast are done fermenting, they're done. They flocculate and close down metabolically. The beer becomes ready to package and drink when the yeast have dropped out and the beer is bright. Tase beer before adding isinglass then taste the day after adding it, when the beer has dropped bright overnight. They don't mop up after themselves as such. Suspended yeast, with very few exceptions, just don't taste that great in beer.
 
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Pressure is a useful tool, of course, but I'm still not convinced fermenting ale yeast under pressure offers any benefits. Just seems to be a case of 'because I can'. In which case it isn't an 'elegant tool' at all. The list of perceived benefits can be had by simply closing the FV/spunding towards to end of fermentation. I'm not sure if Verdant ferment under pressure. I doubt it, though. Note Verdant is a top fermenting ale yeast so how tall FVs might be is not necessarily a valid assumption that the yeast are fermented under 5-6 psi commercially. Concerns about high hydrostatic pressures in commercial vessels are more to do with stress on the yeast in the cone post fermentation. My own experience with Verdant yeast was so underwhelming that I didn't bother repitching it, as initially planned. That was fermenting an English bitter, mind. And that's my experience of fermenting ale yeast under pressure, with the yeast and recipes I use. I think if there were genuine benefits in fermenting ale yeast under pressure from the start of the process, commercial brewers would have realised a long time ago. Like they did with lager yeast.

I don't understand what is meant by 'mopping up after itself'. When yeast are done fermenting, they're done. They flocculate and close down metabolically. The beer becomes ready to package and drink when the yeast have dropped out and the beer is bright. Tase beer before adding isinglass then taste the day after adding it, when the beer has dropped bright overnight. They don't mop up after themselves as such. Suspended yeast, with very few exceptions, just don't taste that great in beer.

Commercial brewers with ccv's are fermenting under pressure. The pressure is baked in to the liquid height in the tank. Verdant is a great top cropping yeast, but it is a violent fermenter and at high kräusen it looks like a snow globe in the fermenter. The yeast is traveling from the bottom of the vessel to the top and back again with co² generation or simply by convection from heat generated by the ferment itself or the cooling jackets. They are definitely seeing a pressure change and at certain times they will experience it many times an hour. At pitch when the wort is static they will likely see max static pressure of the vessel until things start moving along.

Depending on the yeast strain and the temperature profile of the ferment, the yeast may have to mop up acetaldehyde and diacetyl towards the end of fermentation. With pressure I have had quite mature tasting ales going into the keg. Pressure reduces higher alcohol production as well and that is definitely a bonus.

I have fermented a lot of beer under pressure in the last few years. I have tried many different ale and lager strains in many different ways. Even if one was to use 1 psi until spunding for carbonation that's a win. In that case, purging kegs with the co² generated is just an added bonus.
 
Not all ale yeast perform well in large commercial cylindroconicals, especially traditional English ale strains. Yes, unlike lager yeast, ale yeast gain buoyancy by evolving CO2 bubbles remaining attached to the cell wall, to varying degrees depending on strain. I'm not sure sufficient convection heat gets generated to produce any noticeable effects, though. The swarming or murmuration-like patterns often observed are just yeast flocs jet propelled by escaping CO2 erupting from a burst opening in the floc wall then whizzing around randomly. What pressure does during fermentation is reduce yeast growth therefore some esters too. I suspect you perceive a beneficial effect because your pitching rate is low therefore overexpressing ester profiles without pressure. You'll likely notice similar results just by increasing your pitching rate and fermenting under no head pressure. Good pitching practice being among the most elegant tools a brewer has. I still fail to see any genuine benefits of fermenting ale yeast under pressure. It doesn't help me produce the best beer I can. I have the capacity to do so, but limit it to some lagers and natural carbonation of my ales. A secondary vessel, keg, etc. can be purged using CO2 gas from fermentation in primary without any head pressure. Something I do whether using a pressure-rated FV or not, it really doesn't require fermentation under pressure.
 
I'm planning on brewing a Blonde Ale this weekend and debating on pressure fermenting using Cellarscience's Cali ale yeast. I pressure ferment all my lagers but when I pressure fermented a Kolsch I didn't like the results. I want my Blonde Ale to be crisp and clean like a lager. I also want/need the fermentation done and the beer kegged in no more than 10 days. Preferably sooner.

What results have you had pressure fermenting with Ale yeast?
I did exactly this with my last brew. The yeast didn't finish, or at the very least under pressure the yeast slows down too much. My normal practice is to open blow-off for first 2-3 days, then spund at 3psi. and normal ferm temps. I believe this gives me the least possible yeast expression for my hoppy ales and that's what I want.

This last time I bumped pressure to 10psi, +1*c on ferm temp and after 3+ weeks the fermentation was still not done. At this point I added another package of yeast (and more hops) through my pressure dry hop scheme (w11 G in the fermenter), pressure at 3psi, temp at 20*C. 4-5 days later I have decent beer--not as good as a normal brew, though.

Sooo, from this one experiment I will not repeat high pressure fermentation--likely with any ale yeast. YMMV.
 
There seems to be risk of some confusion being propagated here, which is why I asked for some genuine benefits for fermenting ale yeast under pressure. It's not something commercial brewers do. If anything, they're challenged to do the opposite or at least manage things to reduce pressure during peak fermentation. Hydrostatic pressure in tall commercial vessels is one thing, partial CO2 pressure building up in the fermentation vessel is another. The main issue is the impact of CO2 pressure on yeast growth therefore fermentation performance. Yeast stop budding at a CO2 pressure of about 40 psi. It's not an abrupt change, it starts at lower CO2 pressures and gets worse as CO2 pressure increases. Commercial brewers generally repitch yeast for at least several generations, which is key to business and the heart of any brewery. Therefore professional brewers are very conscious about taking very good care of the yeast, especially to promote sufficient biomass for maintaining fermentation performance and subsequent repitchings. Of course, as home brewers, we can do whatever we want, but fermenting ale yeast under pressure seems to be making compromises without any clear benefits specific to fermenting under pressure. I still think it's just a case of some doing it just because they can. Those opting for fermenting ales under pressure probably should increase pitching rate by quite a lot, but if they do that, they might find, quite ironically, that fermentation finishes sooner without any head pressure and that the final beer has a more balanced quality generally. And the same great results can be achieved in a non pressure-rated FV too.
 
There seems to be risk of some confusion being propagated here, which is why I asked for some genuine benefits for fermenting ale yeast under pressure. It's not something commercial brewers do. If anything, they're challenged to do the opposite or at least manage things to reduce pressure during peak fermentation. Hydrostatic pressure in tall commercial vessels is one thing, partial CO2 pressure building up in the fermentation vessel is another. The main issue is the impact of CO2 pressure on yeast growth therefore fermentation performance. Yeast stop budding at a CO2 pressure of about 40 psi. It's not an abrupt change, it starts at lower CO2 pressures and gets worse as CO2 pressure increases. Commercial brewers generally repitch yeast for at least several generations, which is key to business and the heart of any brewery. Therefore professional brewers are very conscious about taking very good care of the yeast, especially to promote sufficient biomass for maintaining fermentation performance and subsequent repitchings. Of course, as home brewers, we can do whatever we want, but fermenting ale yeast under pressure seems to be making compromises without any clear benefits specific to fermenting under pressure. I still think it's just a case of some doing it just because they can. Those opting for fermenting ales under pressure probably should increase pitching rate by quite a lot, but if they do that, they might find, quite ironically, that fermentation finishes sooner without any head pressure and that the final beer has a more balanced quality generally. And the same great results can be achieved in a non pressure-rated FV too.

It seems like your view about pressure fermenting ales is from a theoretical point of view, but not from much actual experience. Pressure is just another tool and with some experience it can be an excellent tool. If you are cloning a commercially produced ale and really want to nail it, pressure might take you a step closer to that goal. Can you duplicate an ale made in a tall ccv in a zero psi fermenter? You might get close, but it will always have different fermentation characteristics because of pressure, whether it is static or applied head pressure.

Most of the concerns that are talked about like reduced or no esters and stunted growth I have found through experience to either be dramatically exaggerated or just not true with the many strains I have used. I have really tried to get Verdant to ferment with very little esters. I literally just put a blonde ale wort on a whole fresh Verdant yeast cake, added 25 psi top pressure and let it eat. It still has that distinct Apricot nose, it's ok I really love it, but I can't make it suddenly stop producing esters with even high top pressure on a big properly handled pitch. Yeast are gonna yeast. As far as pressure inhibiting growth, it doesn't seem to be as big a problem as it is proposed to be. Sierra Nevada has 13 psi baked in to their ccv's and repitch business as usual everyday (macro lager breweries have enormous ccv's and repitch like clockwork from them). Depressurize the yeast slowly and carry on, pretty simple.

Some reasons why people use pressure for ales are things like retention of hop aroma, lack of temperature control, reduced fusel alcohols, zero oxygen xfers and zero oxygen dry hopping. Do you NEED to use pressure, well it depends on your goals in the glass and knowledge of that yeast strain under pressure and at 0 psi. How much pressure to use if any and when, and the how much is entirely up to the brewer. I really like the nice round mouthfeel that I get from pressure fermentation, even though I still don't understand how it happens, is it glycerol??? I don’t know, but I love it and it doesn't take much head pressure for it to show up with most yeasts. Would I make a taddy porter or a German hefeweizen under any pressure, no. Would I make a tree house IPA under some pressure, yes because I would be using similar conditions to their fermentation to get similar results from the yeast.
 
My personal observations, and, it seems, those of most home brewers who have tried it, are supported by scientific data. The biological impacts of CO2 pressure have been widely recognised since the 1970s. It's not simply pressure that reduces ale yeast cell division/budding therefore some esters levels. It's specifically CO2 pressure. The CO2 level. It's a well-recognised stress factor. The equivalent pressure applied using N2, for example, has no effect on yeast cell budding rates. It's wrong to consider 'pressure' simply as 'pressure' in a brewery and assuming hydrostatic pressure is equivalent to CO2 pressure.

Again, what you are describing as your perceived desirable changes can be achieved simply by increasing pitching rate. Controlling the level of biomass production can help to promote a more balanced beer (and quicker fermentation). If I'm already doing that, I don't want to take it too fair by fermenting under pressure. Because I'm not perceiving any benefits. Quite the opposite. Clearly, we brew differently. What I've learnt is based mainly on trying to replicate (not clone) the fine quality of balanced traditional English ales, not macro beer.

I still don't see any actual benefits uniquely offered by fermenting ale yeast under pressure. The same, barring carbonation, is achievable in a non pressure-rated vessel without any head pressure. Nor do I see much point in making something like a heavily hopped IPA then selecting a yeast strain with a profile you want to limit. Just choose a strain that's limited already. There's no shortage of more neutral strains. Even bread yeast are going to work fine in a heavily hopped ale. I think it's going to be a struggle here to detect which yeast strain was used regardless.
 
I've played with pressure fermentation a few times. Just because I got a fermentor that could. I wanted to quantify a benefit, so I did several experiments where I split a large batch in 2 or 3 fermentors and had pressure as a variable.

I've done it with both lager and ale yeast. My experience has been it doesn't do much. I haven't seen taste benefit from it. So I don't bother. I do spund at like 1 psi towards end of fermentation just to keep some positive pressure inside the fermentor to de-risk contamination. But that's it.

Here's a link to an experiment I did pressure fermenting a kolsch.
 
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lack of temperature control, reduced fusel alcohols,
That’s my reason. I’ve only got one temp-controlled FC and I’m usually fermenting more than one batch at a time. Expanding my FC capacity is a future goal, but pressure fermenting is a current option. My results would never win an award, but they’re suitable for my tastes.
 
I did exactly this with my last brew. The yeast didn't finish, or at the very least under pressure the yeast slows down too much. My normal practice is to open blow-off for first 2-3 days, then spund at 3psi. and normal ferm temps. I believe this gives me the least possible yeast expression for my hoppy ales and that's what I want.

This last time I bumped pressure to 10psi, +1*c on ferm temp and after 3+ weeks the fermentation was still not done. At this point I added another package of yeast (and more hops) through my pressure dry hop scheme (w11 G in the fermenter), pressure at 3psi, temp at 20*C. 4-5 days later I have decent beer--not as good as a normal brew, though.

Sooo, from this one experiment I will not repeat high pressure fermentation--likely with any ale yeast. YMMV.
Great feedback. My lagers, fermented under the higher pressure range (20-25psi for one and 30 for another), seemed to produce my best beers to date. I figured I'd maintain that approach with the ale yeast. I'll go ahead and dial that way back to around 5psi.
 
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