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Warm Fermented Lager Thread

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applescrap

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A thread for people who ferment lagers warm and want to discuss it. This is not a place to argue or debate fermentation temperature control, there are other threads for that. If you warm ferment lagers and want to share results or are considering trying. I would like this to be a safe place for discussing all things warm lager beer and experimentation.
 
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applescrap

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Sorry let me clarify, I plan on making a lot of warm fermented lagers and there are others that do as well. That thread is an open forum for debating fermentation temperature control. This thread, I would like to be a place for those of us who do this technique or are considering doing this and want to discuss that. The other thread is for stating opinions on if it should be done. This thread is for "I get it done this way" or how "do i do this."
 

casualbrewer

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I may plan on it if I use 34/70, but the other strains that got too warm threw alot of diacetyl. Wlp940 is kinda my house strain now and it can a bit warmer but dislikes being pitched warm. If I knew I could get away with it I would but many of the strains I use don't like the higher temps (above 55*)
 
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applescrap

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I have made two now. Both recipes were a modification of recipes. I used 2 row in both recipes and cascade hops. One recipe was for a Munich dunkel. The other was a recipe for a Munich helles. Saf 34/70 in each. I heard this brewer talking about how he loves lager because he's not always in the mood for big flavorful beer. I have to agree its nice to have an easy drinker sitting around. Anyways he does a small bittering charge and then dry hops the beer. I am thinking about doing the same with mosaic hops. Any ideas on how much to add and when? I am going to make this maybe today so need some help soon!

I think I went grain to glass in just about 7 days with the last one. Since I am out will probably do that again. It didn't clear till day 10, I think it was. At first it was pretty hazy. On a side note I am thinking about mashing in fruit loops cereal. Don't know why it just sounds good to me.
 
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applescrap

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I may plan on it if I use 34/70, but the other strains that got too warm threw alot of diacetyl. Wlp940 is kinda my house strain now and it can a bit warmer but dislikes being pitched warm. If I knew I could get away with it I would but many of the strains I use don't like the higher temps (above 55*)
Yeah give the 34/70 a try. I heard Marshall say that 34/70 strain is the most popular lager yeast in the world. Northern brewer site says, "This famous yeast strain from Weihenstephan in Germany is used worldwide and has become the most popular strain." What about wyeast steam beer/cali. common yeast? I heard a brewery say they used it in their lagers cause they liked its character. Apparently kolsch yeast makes for an interesting lager as well. Anyways hope you try one and post your results here.
 
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applescrap

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Of course lhbs out of 34/70 and worse the wlp800 and 802 are near expiration this month, ugh. Also first attempt at full volume 10 gallon biab in 15 gallon kettle. Had john and jamils recipe for octoberfest but needing to modify for 2 row made recipe somewhat irrelevant. Really wanted to do mosaic dry hopped helles/american lager modified recipe I made last time, but this isn't the store I buy my bulk stuff at. Anyways they also didn't have a f..in fermenting bucket available. Made them give me something and they had an old grain bucket. Fun cleaning and sanatizing that. Will probably only use it once. Recipe I made scaled for 5.5 gallons was

7.5 pounds 2 row
1 pound Vienna
1 pound munich
.75 pound crystal 60
.5 oz perle 45 minutes
.5 oz tet. 20 mins
3/8 camden tablet
Wlp 800 for one
Wlp 802 for other.

Will see in a week! Its 68 in room.
 

casualbrewer

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Did you make a starter or just pitch the vial? Hope they don't end up butter bombs.
 

meatcleaver

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I read about the 34-70 Xbt over at brulosophy & was of course intrigued.
I brewed a Helles (80/20 pils, Vienna), tettnang to 20-25 IBU & fermented @ 68°. I did a 3 week primary, 3 weeks bottle conditioning (@ room temp) & at least 3 weeks lagering @ 34°. turned out great.
next I did an Amber lager (90/10 2-row, c-60), spalt to 18-20 IBU, fermented @ 68 & lagered post fermentation too. it's also very good.
I love being able to do lagers @ room temperature with just a swamp cooler. I've been so pleased with the outcome that the Helles has replaced my hoppy blonde as my house beer.
 
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Did you make a starter or just pitch the vial? Hope they don't end up butter bombs.
Pitched the white pitch packs no starter. I hope so too! These will be the 3rd lager I have made and its a lot colder in that room then last time so I am suspecting good things.
 
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applescrap

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I read about the 34-70 Xbt over at brulosophy & was of course intrigued.
I brewed a Helles (80/20 pils, Vienna), tettnang to 20-25 IBU & fermented @ 68°. I did a 3 week primary, 3 weeks bottle conditioning (@ room temp) & at least 3 weeks lagering @ 34°. turned out great.
next I did an Amber lager (90/10 2-row, c-60), spalt to 18-20 IBU, fermented @ 68 & lagered post fermentation too. it's also very good.
I love being able to do lagers @ room temperature with just a swamp cooler. I've been so pleased with the outcome that the Helles has replaced my hoppy blonde as my house beer.
Man that is so cool. That is what this thread is all about. I agree these beers taste great and make a wonderful house beer. They are cheap to make and I have come to really prefer the lager yeast.
 

ncbrewer

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I might be trying this in the near future. I'm interested in pitching rates. Rates for lagers are generally much higher than for ale, but I feel that this is because of the lower anticipated fermentation temperatures. It seems like if it ferments at ale temperatures, then the normal ale pitching rates would apply. Any ideas/experience?
 
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^^yes, another benefit of this process. Savings in yeast.

Also I will be drinking one of the 5 gallons next saturday, another benefit.
 

meatcleaver

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I might be trying this in the near future. I'm interested in pitching rates. Rates for lagers are generally much higher than for ale, but I feel that this is because of the lower anticipated fermentation temperatures. It seems like if it ferments at ale temperatures, then the normal ale pitching rates would apply. Any ideas/experience?
my thoughts about pitching rates were the same as yours. I assumed a packet of yeast was plenty for a 1.050ish beer fermented at warmish temps. it took off fast, fermented steady & had no issues.
I saved the slurry from the Helles & pitched a pint of it to the Amber. it took longer to get started but made good beer anyway.
brewing another batch of Helles now!
 

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I brewed 11g of German Pilsner yesterday. One fermenter got 34/70 and the other s-23. I pitched two packs at ~60F, directly without rehydrating. Both were bubbling away after 18h. I'll let you know how it comes out.
 
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applescrap

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So I was going to let it wait a little longer but saw it hadnt changed in a few days. Boom, racked and carbed day 9. It is so f...in good. Oktoberfest modified recipe easy drinker. I am in love with wlp802. Took 60 hours to start ferment, fermented violently, an explosion of sound in the bucket and dropped out leaving the faintest ring like scent on a pillow. Cheers
 
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applescrap

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So if the question is what does a lager warm fermented, racked and force carbed 9 days later and slightly warm look like in a glass. This is the answer. Just like the others I hope this will become crystal clear in a little time. I don't mind fresh Homebrew like this at all though. Really like this one.

View attachment 1476644718381.jpg

View attachment 1476644754718.jpg
 
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applescrap

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So as this lager starts to drop clear, I cant help but wonder about lager yeast flocculation. Right around day 16 the 3 lagers have started to clear. Chris White wrote this about flocculation on their website.

"Most lager yeast is between medium and low in flocculation.

Lagers go though an extended cool fermentation and lagering process, and the yeast needs to stay in

suspension during this process. The more contact the yeast has with the beer, the better able the yeast is at

reducing the diacetyl and ester"

So just something to keep in mind for warm fermented lagers. I don't think you could get Crystal Clear lager in nine days or so. The last two lagers I racked at day 7 and day 9, and they cleared substantially by day 16. At this point if they were hit with gelatin they would clear well I think. I thought sloppy racking and force carbonating were to blame but I think flocculation is more key. I think the "quick" lager method requires 3 weeks so this seems to fall in line with that. The other 5 gallons is still sitting warm so I'll see before too long.
 

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@applescrap wow, that really cleared up!

I've been considering fermenting something warmish with wyeast 2124, as I've used it a few times. My lager fridge just doesn't have the capacity that I'd like and it isn't tall enough for my 3-gallon carboy.
 
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applescrap

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Check it out, its a new england lager. After 3.5 weeks this yeast wouldnt die! F...in braveheart of yeast. Krausen 3.5 weeks later. Sloppy rack, force carbed, 5 days later, and still juicy. Gelatin isnt clearing this beer. But man did the yeast do their job. So crisp, and clean. They wont stop working. Think I want to try and replicate this. Its like the freshest Florida orange juice you have ever had with noble hops.

View attachment 1478571656233.jpg
 

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I brew 4 batches a year with wlp810 at 64°. It comes out nice and clean. SImple grainbill, 2 row, crystal 20 carapils & vienna. Comet or palisades and cascade hops. I do let the keg lager for at least 2 weeks.
 
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Another 10 gallons of lager on the way. 20 pounds 2row, 1.5 pounds munich light, .5 melanoidin with 3 oz hallertauer. Still fighting the wlp 800 new england lager. Threw some jello in today. The other one cleared fine. These today were saf34/70. Hope for good things. Need to work on clarity.
 

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Brewed 10 gallons of American amber Lager and fermenting with 34/70 at 59/60. 4 days in now and bumping my temp to finish. Sample is already clean and malty tasting. Smell has a little way to go.
 
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48 hours later, these look done. Thank god for good yeast! They were opaque last night and i could hear and smell ferment. The saf3470 is where its at.
 
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Brewed 10 gallons of American amber Lager and fermenting with 34/70 at 59/60. 4 days in now and bumping my temp to finish. Sample is already clean and malty tasting. Smell has a little way to go.
Awesome, so glad you are sharing reaults here.
 
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applescrap

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There goes the last 2 hours of my life.

@applescrap I will be PMing you an invoice.
Haha, hope you are not a lawyer! I hope you have some debate to add to the other thread. And even more so i hope you brew a warm fermented lager and add it here.
 

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Bottled last night. Wasn't thinking and put them in the ferm chamber at 40F. How long you think it would take to prime at that temp? I could pull them now and room temp carb them, just figured off flavours etc etc.

That being said, how long have yours been taking to clear and clean up/crisp up applescrap? I assume you're cold conditioning them?
 

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my warm fermented amber lager. it's hard to tell from the pic but this beer is beautifully clear.
3 wks primary @ 68
3 wks bottle conditioning @ 72
3 wks lagering @ 34...
this is the last of the batch & these have actually been lagering since the first of September.

IMG_20161123_121252803_HDR.jpg
 
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Bottled last night. Wasn't thinking and put them in the ferm chamber at 40F. How long you think it would take to prime at that temp? I could pull them now and room temp carb them, just figured off flavours etc etc.

That being said, how long have yours been taking to clear and clean up/crisp up applescrap? I assume you're cold conditioning them?
I cant help with the bottle question, i keg and used pet bottles when i bottled. I racked one at 7 days and one at 9. They were starting to substantially clear by day 16 as I recall from my notes above. If i would have hit them with jello at that point they would need a day or 2 more to be really clear I think. This last one with the bullshat yeast was like 3.5 weeks primary and plenty of cold time and that yeast wouldnt die. Ill post pic later its cystal now after a jello boost. Anyways you can see those fermenters above day 2. I am going to stick them in my rocky mtn garage and hit them with jello in keg or fermenter. I force carb and rack sloppy. I think your beers will be clear a week or two later and crystal more beyond that without jello. Cant wait to hear your results! One last thought here about cleaning and crisping up. My perception tells me they get better as they clear and age. That being said I wonder if I could really tell in a blind triangle test and its all just perception.
 

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Hi
We have been having conversations along the same lines. http://www.williamswarn.com/ww-forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12754

I have been brewing lagers under pressure in just over a week using a Williams Warn Brewkegs system at temperatures around 21 degrees. Absolutely no problems in terms of taste. The inventor says that bars using the commercial 50L system are brewing ales and lagers around the same temperatures with no complaints. An interesting read.
 

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I brewed a helles using WLP029 - no starter, pitched at about 65F and just set the fermenter in the hallway (we keep our Tampa house at a constant 68-70F). The result was better than I could have expected (I prefer the helles to the more bitter pils) - really showcased a clean malt taste. Only complaint was clarity but for this first effort I really wasn't concerned and didn't do anything beyond tossing a whirlfloc tablet into the boil.
Next attempt will be a märzen with 34/70 with whirlfloc/cold crash/gelatin to see just how clear I can get.
 
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Hi
We have been having conversations along the same lines. http://www.williamswarn.com/ww-forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12754

I have been brewing lagers under pressure in just over a week using a Williams Warn Brewkegs system at temperatures around 21 degrees. Absolutely no problems in terms of taste. The inventor says that bars using the commercial 50L system are brewing ales and lagers around the same temperatures with no complaints. An interesting read.
I loved reading this. I didnt delve to deep into the actual brew keg product, cause i know i will want one. Appreciate you sharing your experiences. What does brewing under pressure do?
 
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Awesome magicrat. Look forward to hearing about the marzen.

For me i never updated on the 10 gallons of helles i brewed. I got a kick out of your liking the helles more magic rat as i am the complete opposite. You said it best the bitter pils. I like a bitter lager and only 25 gallons or so later i realized that. If you like helles, marzen is a malty european lager as well. I cant stand malty beers, but got no problem that people do. I like the bitter lagers. I did like the dunkel i made though. The malty lagers are an awesome base i feel for fruit, flavoring, dry hopping etc. Finally bought some commercial helles and glad i did as mine was similar. One batch of the 10 gallons was racked with great care and then sat in my keg fridge damn near all winter. It got -10 all the way to the fridge working and that thing barely cleared. I think my dip tube could use a circumcision (cut up a little). Regardless i want to say it got better aging 4 months in freezing cold, but i am pretty sure it was the same throughout. Ok rambling sorry. Let's make more lagers!
 

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I loved reading this. I didnt delve to deep into the actual brew keg product, cause i know i will want one. Appreciate you sharing your experiences. What does brewing under pressure do?
It's a cool bit of kit. I have a two of them going in a kegerator and what I'm seeing is that:

1. from the start of fermenting to drinking is as short as a week for an ale
2. Beer is carbonated during fermentation
3. Pressure seems to inhibit ester and fusel formation
4. Can ferment warmer
5. The pressure keeps the need for head space in the fermenter down and blow off down.

I haven't been bold enough to ferment higher than 21degrees Celsius yet but others have and had no problem. Have gone to 21 though and no problem when using w 34/70.

Cheers
 

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I am glad this thread exists. I am engaging in this sacrilegious (or sacrilicious) practice right now. Hope to hear more tasting notes from you happy heathens.

Fermenting: 2 varieties of German lagers strains and a Czech pilsner strain. Ambient 60-62 F (for now, our winter house temp). Pitched at just shy of 80 for all of them. 2 were smack packs, 1 was a dry Fermentis. No starters. The smack packs took a few days to show decent activity. The dry yeast took no time at all. I presume it was the higher cell count.

All grain bills were a mix of bo-pils and 2-row malt, nothing more. Various hops, nothing too strong, mostly noble. Using up my inventory before a new big buy.

Will report my findings. I am hoping for clean, quality taste, like the European lager/pilsner styles. If not, at least there will be beer. As well as a big "starter" yeast cake for my next batch.

Was it a brulosopher xbeeriment that I am thinking of that suggests this might be possible? I think so.

I was getting damn tired of waiting on lagers and pilsners at <50, and taking the extra step of fitting them in my temp-control mini-fridge and special kegs.
 
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