Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[z-bob]

37 pages. Is there a recent summary? I have a couple of packets of 34/70 in the fridge that I need to use up; a couple of years old. That's one that works but is not by consensus the best, right? What yeast, preferably dried, is the best for mimicking a real lager?

I plan on fermenting at about 58 to 60 degrees; whatever the corner of my basement is in late winter. Then warm it up to maybe 65 or so for a couple days right before bottling. What's next, keep the bottles at 68 for a week and then refrigerate for a month before drinking? (except for one, sampled two weeks after bottling, of course)

 

[Northern_Brewer]

if i ferment with lager yeast at 70-80f, will it produce more esters? i think i like esters!

All yeast produce more esters at higher temperatures - along with fusel alcohol and other "nasties". Lager yeasts produce less esters in general than ale yeasts - see eg this Fermentis study of 34/70 :

https://fermentis.com/en/rediscover-saflager-w-34-70/
So if you like esters, then lager yeasts are not the yeasts for you, you are better with ale yeasts.

(i believe esters are weak opiates, and that's what makes beer/wine naturally fermented stuff feel better )

Esters are not weak opiates. If they were, kids would be getting high on pear drops and bananas.

 

[bracconiere]

Esters are not weak opiates.

i disagree, but don't want to give the kids ideas. oh hell all an ester is, is a carboxylic acid, and an alcohol bonded....cocaine is an ester, and we know the kids love that....


and proteins are amino acids, the acid being a carboxylic....and really to be an opiate all you need is some heavy carbon on one end, and amine on the other and a secondary at beta to the amine...

look at this and think these are all combining during fermentation...

 

[Snark_Wolf_Brewing]

I'm not sure I'm improving with age! At least I'm brewing better.
Has anyone tried Bootleg Arlingtonesis warm? I know it's a bit obscure. I have a small batch going in the basement right now in the mid fifties naturally. But if it can do well warmer I might try that too.
Thanks.

First I've heard of the strain. Went to Bootleg's website and looked it up. Seems like it would be an interesting strain to experiment with.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

i disagree, but don't want to give the kids ideas. oh hell all an ester is, is a carboxylic acid, and an alcohol bonded....cocaine is an ester, and we know the kids love that....

It also has a tropane group, a phenyl group and all sorts of other features. It's not the fact that it has an ester group that's particularly significant.

and proteins are amino acids, the acid being a carboxylic....and really to be an opiate all you need is some heavy carbon on one end, and amine on the other and a secondary at beta to the amine...

But when we talk about esters in fermentation we're talking about the "simple" esters like ethyl acetate as they're the only ones present in any significant quantities - ethyl acetate might be present at 10-15ppm, but even a fairly mainstream ester like isoamyl acetate is only present at around 1ppm, and the rest are parts per billion or less.

look at this and think these are all combining during fermentation...

If you're worried about amino acids, just wait until you eat beer with steak...

Anyway, this is now getting off-topic. You asked if there's much esters from lager yeasts at 70-80F, and the answer is - not much, per that Fermentis research.

 

[VikeMan]

Anyway, this is now getting off-topic. You asked if there's much esters from lager yeasts at 70-80F, and the answer is - not much, per that Fermentis research.

The highest temperature for 34/70 tested by Fermentis was 68F.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The highest temperature for 34/70 tested by Fermentis was 68F.

Yeah, fair shout, I always think of 20°C as just over 70°F. But the point remains, their testing shows a pretty flat temperature response, and evidence from contributors to this thread is that flat response seems to continue well into the mid-20s °C.

 

[marc1]

37 pages. Is there a recent summary? I have a couple of packets of 34/70 in the fridge that I need to use up; a couple of years old. That's one that works but is not by consensus the best, right? What yeast, preferably dried, is the best for mimicking a real lager?

I plan on fermenting at about 58 to 60 degrees; whatever the corner of my basement is in late winter. Then warm it up to maybe 65 or so for a couple days right before bottling. What's next, keep the bottles at 68 for a week and then refrigerate for a month before drinking? (except for one, sampled two weeks after bottling, of course)

I brewed a pilsner with 34/70 at 60F (controlled beer temp) and had it tasted at a homebrew club meeting by several people who judge beer comps, among others. I specifically asked for feedback on any fermentation flaws (I did not tell them that I fermented warmer than usual until afterwards). They all thought the fermentation was clean.

At a pouring event, another similar beer got tasted by many people, and one guy (I think the homebrew shop employee) was fixated on the lager lacking something... it was too clean? I tried to get out of him exactly what it was, but he thought it was missing something. Maybe didn't have a hint of sulfur that some people expect? Just one anecdote critical of the process.

 

[thehaze]

I've done a few different batches using W-34/70, fermenting between 17 and 22C ( 62-72F ). The batches were 2 German Pilsners, 1 French Pilsner, 2 Vienna Lagers, 1 Dark Lager, 2 Doppelbocks, 1 IPL, 1 Hoppy Dark Lager - I was really pleased with how they've turned out. I haven't smelled, nor tasted any esters. It does produces some sulphur during fermentation, but the final product is clean. I am not a fan of the slight sulphury note some lagers have.

 

[Miraculix]

I've done a few different batches using W-34/70, fermenting between 17 and 22C ( 62-72F ). The batches were 2 German Pilsners, 1 French Pilsner, 2 Vienna Lagers, 1 Dark Lager, 2 Doppelbocks, 1 IPL, 1 Hoppy Dark Lager - I was really pleased with how they've turned out. I haven't smelled, nor tasted any esters. It does produces some sulphur during fermentation, but the final product is clean. I am not a fan of the slight sulphury note some lagers have.

I Love the sulphur notes, but I grew up with them. For me, it belongs to a lager. At least here in Germany, most of the pilseners have it.

But it really depends. Now I got a relatively cold fermented s04 ale here, the temperature gave it a little bit of sulphur and suddenly it doesn't fit anymore it's no lager.

 

[marcuspopus]

Hi all, first post, and apologies if these questions have already been addressed, but there are so many posts to go through!

I'll be brewing a simple lager on Friday (Gregg Hughes European lager) with Lallemand Diamond, expected O.G. 1.045, then fermenting under pressure at room temperature in a corny.

My questions are:

I've realised that the pack indicates a pitch rate of 1-2g per litre. This will be around 20L of wort, but I only have 1 11g pack (oversight), so should I make a starter to up the cell count? I was thinking of the SNS starter method advocated by Denny Conn & others.

Second question is about pressure schedule: presumably I want to suppress esters straight away to get a clean result. What would people recommend? I was thinking of setting to 10psi and letting the pressure build naturally, then ramping it to 15psi towards the end for carbonation, then crashing for a few days before transferring to a serving keg, and then lagering for as long as I can keep my hands off it.

This is my first warm fermented lager, so grateful of any thoughts/advice.

Cheers

 

[McKnuckle]

I won't address the yeast part, but regarding your pressure settings... 15 psi at room temperature is not adequate for carbonation. The pressure setting required to obtain a given amount of absorbed CO2 is dependent on the temperature. Refer to this chart. At 68ºF, 15 psi only achieves 1.7 volumes of CO2.

The usual process for spunding at the end for carbonation is to first transfer the beer to a fresh keg with 2-4 gravity points remaining, and then seal it up with the desired final pressure based on the temperature. You've described doing this transfer after final carbonation and some cold settling are achieved in the fermenter.

You can do it either way, but the traditional way allows for some suspended yeast to be transferred into the lagering (serving) keg in order to fully and slowly attenuate and condition the beer, even once it drops to lagering temps. This is a phase in the process that I think some home brewers ignore.

In either case, you do need to account for the pressure differential between the two kegs; ideally they should be the same at the time of transfer.

 

[Miraculix]

Hi all, first post, and apologies if these questions have already been addressed, but there are so many posts to go through!

I'll be brewing a simple lager on Friday (Gregg Hughes European lager) with Lallemand Diamond, expected O.G. 1.045, then fermenting under pressure at room temperature in a corny.

My questions are:

I've realised that the pack indicates a pitch rate of 1-2g per litre. This will be around 20L of wort, but I only have 1 11g pack (oversight), so should I make a starter to up the cell count? I was thinking of the SNS starter method advocated by Denny Conn & others.

Second question is about pressure schedule: presumably I want to suppress esters straight away to get a clean result. What would people recommend? I was thinking of setting to 10psi and letting the pressure build naturally, then ramping it to 15psi towards the end for carbonation, then crashing for a few days before transferring to a serving keg, and then lagering for as long as I can keep my hands off it.

This is my first warm fermented lager, so grateful of any thoughts/advice.

Cheers

I previously fermented 20l batches with one pack of 3470 warm. However not under pressure and probably also not ideal, so in other words, if I could, I would up the cell count with a starter, yes.

 

[JohnSand]

Hi all, first post, and apologies if these questions have already been addressed, but there are so many posts to go through!

I'll be brewing a simple lager on Friday (Gregg Hughes European lager) with Lallemand Diamond, expected O.G. 1.045, then fermenting under pressure at room temperature in a corny.

My questions are:

I've realised that the pack indicates a pitch rate of 1-2g per litre. This will be around 20L of wort, but I only have 1 11g pack (oversight), so should I make a starter to up the cell count? I was thinking of the SNS starter method advocated by Denny Conn & others.

Second question is about pressure schedule: presumably I want to suppress esters straight away to get a clean result. What would people recommend? I was thinking of setting to 10psi and letting the pressure build naturally, then ramping it to 15psi towards the end for carbonation, then crashing for a few days before transferring to a serving keg, and then lagering for as long as I can keep my hands off it.

This is my first warm fermented lager, so grateful of any thoughts/advice.

Cheers

If you decide to use a starter, I've had success with vitality starters, or other quick starter methods, Like Denny's.

 

[marcuspopus]

I won't address the yeast part, but regarding your pressure settings... 15 psi at room temperature is not adequate for carbonation. The pressure setting required to obtain a given amount of absorbed CO2 is dependent on the temperature. Refer to this chart. At 68ºF, 15 psi only achieves 1.7 volumes of CO2.

The usual process for spunding at the end for carbonation is to first transfer the beer to a fresh keg with 2-4 gravity points remaining, and then seal it up with the desired final pressure based on the temperature. You've described doing this transfer after final carbonation and some cold settling are achieved in the fermenter.

You can do it either way, but the traditional way allows for some suspended yeast to be transferred into the lagering (serving) keg in order to fully and slowly attenuate and condition the beer, even once it drops to lagering temps. This is a phase in the process that I think some home brewers ignore.

In either case, you do need to account for the pressure differential between the two kegs; ideally they should be the same at the time of transfer.

Thanks, some great info there. Whilst understanding that it wouldn't fully carbonate at room temperature, my thoughts were that it would get things started so that I could finish by setting to 15psi once cold.

Transferring with a couple of points remaining makes total sense in terms of conditioning, but I imagine requires a longer lagering period due to the cold temperature? Presumably during this transfer would also be the time to add finings, or could that prevent the beer from fully attenuating?

 

[McKnuckle]

There are so many variations on producing lager beer, all of which can succeed in their own way. You have to make decisions about temperature, pressure, schedule, and carbonation.

Remember that the point of pressure fermentation is that it allows you to ferment the beer at a warmer temp than is typically used with lager yeast, particularly during the early days of primary when esters and diacetyl need to be suppressed. Standard lager ferm temps in the 46-52F range, give or take, should accomplish that without pressure, assuming a healthy yeast pitch.

The other side of the picture is that pressure fermentation slows things down. The net effect is that pressurized warm fermentation may take as long as standard lager fermentation without pressure. In other words, there is no time savings. I'm only talking about the bulk of attenuation here, not extended conditioning/lagering.

Following the period of high krausen, let's say 5-7 days, you have choices about how to finish the lager. If you fermented cold to begin with and are unsure if the yeast pitch was adequate or produced diacetyl, you might raise the temp to 55-60F for a rest, to encourage full attenuation and clean-up. Many homebrewers accept this as a mandatory step, but it doesn't have to be.

However, if you are confident that you had adequate and healthy yeast, you could drop the temperature gradually in the traditional manner instead. It is during this time that spunding would be performed, either on the entire yeast cake in the fermenter, or with a smaller population of suspended yeast that are transferred to a serving vessel.

If you fermented warm under pressure, you could assume that you controlled diacetyl adequately, and just lower temps at that point. If you do it slowly, 1-2 degrees Fahrenheit per day, the yeast will continue to attenuate and condition the beer. If you match the spunding pressure as the temperature drops, you can carbonate easily.

I've not covered everything of course, but let me stop here as I've prattled on a bit...

 

[marcuspopus]

There are so many variations on producing lager beer, all of which can succeed in their own way. You have to make decisions about temperature, pressure, schedule, and carbonation.

Remember that the point of pressure fermentation is that it allows you to ferment the beer at a warmer temp than is typically used with lager yeast, particularly during the early days of primary when esters and diacetyl need to be suppressed. Standard lager ferm temps in the 46-52F range, give or take, should accomplish that without pressure, assuming a healthy yeast pitch.

The other side of the picture is that pressure fermentation slows things down. The net effect is that pressurized warm fermentation may take as long as standard lager fermentation without pressure. In other words, there is no time savings. I'm only talking about the bulk of attenuation here, not extended conditioning/lagering.

Following the period of high krausen, let's say 5-7 days, you have choices about how to finish the lager. If you fermented cold to begin with and are unsure if the yeast pitch was adequate or produced diacetyl, you might raise the temp to 55-60F for a rest, to encourage full attenuation and clean-up. Many homebrewers accept this as a mandatory step, but it doesn't have to be.

However, if you are confident that you had adequate and healthy yeast, you could drop the temperature gradually in the traditional manner instead. It is during this time that spunding would be performed, either on the entire yeast cake in the fermenter, or with a smaller population of suspended yeast that are transferred to a serving vessel.

If you fermented warm under pressure, you could assume that you controlled diacetyl adequately, and just lower temps at that point. If you do it slowly, 1-2 degrees Fahrenheit per day, the yeast will continue to attenuate and condition the beer. If you match the spunding pressure as the temperature drops, you can carbonate easily.

I've not covered everything of course, but let me stop here as I've prattled on a bit...

And a gratefully received prattle it was. Thank you for all of the advice!

 

[Murrayatuptown]

Is a Baltic Porter with lager yeast at 63-66 F 'techically' a lager, or does no one call a Porter a lager?

 

[McKnuckle]

A couple of random Googled quotes:

"The Baltic-style Porter is a smooth, cold-fermented and cold-lagered beer brewed with lager yeast."

"Unlike English porters, Baltic porters are lagers, not ales."

If you use lager yeast but purposefully avoid handling it as a lager - fermenting warm, not using extended cold storage - then you're not brewing it correctly (I know that's a highly charged word; of course you can do whatever you like, but it's not authentic). At that point the terminology fails us, because it would not be an ale either, due to the use of bottom-fermenting yeast.

So it's either a proper lager or a lager style made incorrectly.

 

[ba-brewer]

The BJCP refers to some beers(Kolsch, cream ales, California Common, Altbier) as hybrids, some are generally warm fermented then cold conditioned or possible can be brewed with lager or ale yeast.
The BJCP says a Baltic Porter can be brewed with either type of yeast.

 

[Miraculix]

A couple of random Googled quotes:

"The Baltic-style Porter is a smooth, cold-fermented and cold-lagered beer brewed with lager yeast."

"Unlike English porters, Baltic porters are lagers, not ales."

If you use lager yeast but purposefully avoid handling it as a lager - fermenting warm, not using extended cold storage - then you're not brewing it correctly (I know that's a highly charged word; of course you can do whatever you like, but it's not authentic). At that point the terminology fails us, because it would not be an ale either, due to the use of bottom-fermenting yeast.

So it's either a proper lager or a lager style made incorrectly.

Well, given the fact that most German breweries just pressure ferment their "lagers" for a few days, filter and then bottle, and then label them lager............ I guess lager is not as well defined as certain American "guidelines" might make you want to believe

 

[VikeMan]

Well, given the fact that most German breweries just pressure ferment their "lagers" for a few days, filter and then bottle, and then label them lager............

Is there data to support this, i.e. that most German breweries pressure ferment their lagers?

 

[Murrayatuptown]

Thanks.

I brewed a kit which had yeast suggestions, and the kit recipe paper copy vs. web was different...so I saw options. I chose one of the recommended lager yeasts that liked my basement year-round temperature(63-66 F; floor and air are closer together in winter). I always struggle with ales and no heating gear (and no power in that room besides lighting), this option was either a benefit or a detour (TBD).

I'll still call it a Baltic Porter. Hardly anyone I hand one to will care what the yeast was, or much of anything as the bottle empties.

Oh, I better find the 'excellent notes' I took on brewing day. 4 weeks and they already ended up in a 'safe place'.

 

[Miraculix]

Is there data to support this, i.e. that most German breweries pressure ferment their lagers?

Go have a look for yourself. I live here in germany. It is all about fast turnaround.

 

[VikeMan]

Go have a look for yourself. I live here in germany. It is all about fast turnaround.

Well, I often see misinformation about American brewing processes posted by Americans. That's why I asked for data. Can you name some of the better German breweries who are fermenting under pressure (which BTW, doesn't really speed anything up), and perhaps how you know it?

 

[Miraculix]

Well, I often see misinformation about American brewing processes posted by Americans. That's why I asked for data. Can you name some of the better German breweries who are fermenting under pressure (which BTW, doesn't really speed anything up), and perhaps how you know it?

I used to know people working for Holsten Brauerei, they told me that not only Holsten is doing it but that is basically standard practice for the big guys. Pressure fermentation let´s you ferment warmer and speeds things up this way.

 

[McKnuckle]

Regardless of what macro German brewers may do today to take shortcuts, that doesn't really interest me. Nor do I believe it takes away anything from the established history of how lager beer has been traditionally produced. Also, the primary fermentation is just one small piece of the process.

Lately I have been watching a lot of German videos on YouTube showing both homebrewers and small breweries in action. There's a lot that differs from what is commonly claimed here on HBT by (mostly) Americans. Most of it's on the hot side, which they do quite differently from Americans and British brewers. But that's for another thread.

 

[VikeMan]

I used to know people working for Holsten Brauerei, they told me that not only Holsten is doing it but that is basically standard practice for the big guys. Pressure fermentation let´s you ferment warmer and speeds things up this way.

Warming a fermentation (alone) speeds it up. Pressurizing (alone) slows it down. Together, it's basically a wash. Are you sure your contacts aren't talking about spunding to carbonate rather than doing the bulk of fermentation under pressure?

 

[ba-brewer]

Saves money and time to capture the CO2 naturally present in the beer. Not sure if the purity laws are still applied but that would conform to that as well.

 

[moreb33rplz]

Regardless of what macro German brewers may do today to take shortcuts, that doesn't really interest me. Nor do I believe it takes away anything from the established history of how lager beer has been traditionally produced. Also, the primary fermentation is just one small piece of the process.

Lately I have been watching a lot of German videos on YouTube showing both homebrewers and small breweries in action. There's a lot that differs from what is commonly claimed here on HBT by (mostly) Americans. Most of it's on the hot side, which they do quite differently from Americans and British brewers. But that's for another thread.

Oooh share some links to those videos please

 

[Miraculix]

Warming a fermentation (alone) speeds it up. Pressurizing (alone) slows it down. Together, it's basically a wash. Are you sure your contacts aren't talking about spunding to carbonate rather than doing the bulk of fermentation under pressure?

Yes I am.

 

[McKnuckle]

@moreb33rplz I should probably start a separate thread, but these are some highlights:

They use motorized mash agitators to continuously stir the mash rather than using pumps to recirculate. They may use a separate lauter tun, into which they run the entire wort and grains, usually with great vigor, through a wide, right angle faucet. They vorlauf extensively by hand with a pitcher. They drain the kettle into the fermenter over a sock-shaped filter bag.

Notably absent are any indication of low oxygen techniques so often claimed as "what German brewers do." In fact, to my eye they handle the hot side wort rather roughly, freely splashing or pouring at many points in the process. And this isn't just random home brewers, but the small town, traditional breweries as well.

They bottle in brown flip-top Grolsch style bottles, and many of the pours are hazy, but always have plenty of foam. Overall, it seems to be a less refined but more traditional process, which appeals to me even if it contrasts with some of what I've learned.

Of course there are plenty of modern guys using the Braumeister, Grainfather, etc. - I'm not talking about them.

 

[VikeMan]

@moreb33rplz I should probably start a separate thread, but these are some highlights:

Two questions:
- Is this a mix of commercial and homebrew video observations?
- What have you seen (if anything) in the videos relating to pressurized fermentations of lagers at German commercial breweries?

 

[Miraculix]

@moreb33rplz I should probably start a separate thread, but these are some highlights:

They use motorized mash agitators to continuously stir the mash rather than using pumps to recirculate. They may use a separate lauter tun, into which they run the entire wort and grains, usually with great vigor, through a wide, right angle faucet. They vorlauf extensively by hand with a pitcher. They drain the kettle into the fermenter over a sock-shaped filter bag.

Notably absent are any indication of low oxygen techniques so often claimed as "what German brewers do." In fact, to my eye they handle the hot side wort rather roughly, freely splashing or pouring at many points in the process. And this isn't just random home brewers, but the small town, traditional breweries as well.

They bottle in brown flip-top Grolsch style bottles, and many of the pours are hazy, but always have plenty of foam. Overall, it seems to be a less refined but more traditional process, which appeals to me even if it contrasts with some of what I've learned.

Of course there are plenty of modern guys using the Braumeister, Grainfather, etc. - I'm not talking about them.

Mght be true for the smaller breweries, there might be huge differences between the different processes they use but the bigger industrial scale breweries do not do this. They keep stuff as fast and long lasting as possible.

 

[VikeMan]

They use motorized mash agitators to continuously stir the mash rather than using pumps to recirculate.

FWIW, I think continuously stirred mashes are not uncommon in commercial (American) breweries. I've brewed in a couple like this. Both had steam jackets for heat/mash temperature control.

They may use a separate lauter tun, into which they run the entire wort and grains, usually with great vigor, through a wide, right angle faucet.

I've also brewed in a comm'l American brewery that used a separate lauter tun. For vorlauf, the wort was run into a grant and then pumped back into the lauter tun. After the vorlauf was done, the wort was run into the same grant and then periodically pumped into the mash tun, which doubled as the boil kettle.

 

[McKnuckle]

- Is this a mix of commercial and homebrew video observations?
- What have you seen (if anything) in the videos relating to pressurized fermentations of lagers at German commercial breweries?

It is a mix, but only very small commercial breweries, nothing industrialized. I wish I could estimate the general batch size, but it's mom and pop type of places. And I haven't been looking at any big establishments, but I have seen a few spunding valves here and there in the footage. Actually - I've seen another gadget that's not available here, it's a pressure gauge that fits on top of a flip-top bottle, replacing the top. The brewer will bottle the beer, and install that on one bottle as a way to judge progress for the batch.

I am so interested in the mash stirring equipment, like this one from a German homebrew shop for a 10 gallon kettle. Nothing like that seems to pop up in the American homebrew landscape. We just think differently here. I find that fascinating too, to be honest, just the fundamentally different ways that different traditions practice what are essentially the same tasks.

 

[VikeMan]

Is there data to support this, i.e. that most German breweries pressure ferment their lagers?

So, I've been poking around the net in my spare time, not finding much one way or the other. I did find this 2018 article on Dunkel Lagers written by Jay S. Hersh, who toured three German breweries: Schlossbrauerei Kaltenberg, Ayinger, and EKU. Here's what he had to say about the fermentation schedules in those breweries:

"Starting fermentation temperatures at these breweries may be as low as 39 °F (4 °C), although at all the breweries visited the heat released by fermentation typically raised fermentation temperatures as much as 11 °F (6 °C) over seven days. In general, fermentations were conducted between 43 and 50 °F (6 and 10 °C). One brewery used a 7-day fermentation, allowing the temperature to gradually rise from 39 °F (4 °C) to 50 °F (10 °C) over that period, then lagering for 6 weeks at 32 °F (0 °C). Another fermented for a total of 12 days, the wort warming during the first day from an initial temperature of 43.5 °F (6.5 °C) to a peak of 49 °F (9.5 °C) from the heat released by fermentation, then gradually cooling down to 36.5 °F (2.5 °C) over the subsequent 11 days, followed by an 8-week lagering period at 36 °F (2 °C).

The third used a more complicated schedule that also involved lowering the temperature from an initial fermentation at 46 °F (8 °C) for the first 4 days down to 39 °F (4 °C) for the next 3, then racking the beer to a blending tank for 2 more weeks’ fermentation at 39 °F (4 °C) before lagering 3–4 weeks at 32 °F (0 °C). From a commercial standpoint, there are no firm rules."

Obviously, it's only three breweries, but it's interesting that all three of the breweries he toured fermented at 50F or lower.

 

[Miraculix]

So, I've been poking around the net in my spare time, not finding much one way or the other. I did find this 2018 article on Dunkel Lagers written by Jay S. Hersh, who toured three German breweries: Schlossbrauerei Kaltenberg, Ayinger, and EKU. Here's what he had to say about the fermentation schedules in those breweries:

"Starting fermentation temperatures at these breweries may be as low as 39 °F (4 °C), although at all the breweries visited the heat released by fermentation typically raised fermentation temperatures as much as 11 °F (6 °C) over seven days. In general, fermentations were conducted between 43 and 50 °F (6 and 10 °C). One brewery used a 7-day fermentation, allowing the temperature to gradually rise from 39 °F (4 °C) to 50 °F (10 °C) over that period, then lagering for 6 weeks at 32 °F (0 °C). Another fermented for a total of 12 days, the wort warming during the first day from an initial temperature of 43.5 °F (6.5 °C) to a peak of 49 °F (9.5 °C) from the heat released by fermentation, then gradually cooling down to 36.5 °F (2.5 °C) over the subsequent 11 days, followed by an 8-week lagering period at 36 °F (2 °C).

The third used a more complicated schedule that also involved lowering the temperature from an initial fermentation at 46 °F (8 °C) for the first 4 days down to 39 °F (4 °C) for the next 3, then racking the beer to a blending tank for 2 more weeks’ fermentation at 39 °F (4 °C) before lagering 3–4 weeks at 32 °F (0 °C). From a commercial standpoint, there are no firm rules."

Obviously, it's only three breweries, but it's interesting that all three of the breweries he toured fermented at 50F or lower.

I think these are all very traditional Bavarian breweries, with a long heritage each. These guys will probably stick to that.

What I want to say is that you are looking at a very narrow part of the German brewery landscape.

 

[Miraculix]

Long time since the last warm lager, but today I pitched a packet of 3470 (had that one since ages in my fridge, best by date was June 2018.... Hahaha, should be fine) into my lower og (1.037) American pilsener type-ish of beer. I will bring it to the basement where it can do it's thing at about 15c ambient temperature. Little water bath to keep fermentation temps low.

So it's a half warm lager I guess.

Ariana for bittering to 32ibus (wort was actually a bit too bitter for my liking, let's see), Simcoe and Chinook dry, 75% pilsener, 20% Vienna and 5% spelt flour.

Mashed for an hour at 63c and mashout for 15 minutes at 76c.

Sulfate around 120 ppm and chloride around 80ppm.

Pretty simple, so it should be good!

 

[schmurf]

I could have sworn that I posted this link here before but I must have been wrong. Regarding the recent postings. What is a Kolsch Style