Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[Miraculix]

I'm more than happy with both S189 and S23 at 14-15c.

I'm really interested to know if anyone has fermented WLP940 Mex lager yeast warmer than cold ? I love this yeast, but always brew with it at cold temps ( 10c ).

My fermentation fridge is dying, so 14-15c is the coldest it is getting.

I have a sachet in my beer fridge that's been there a while. I can't find any info on this yeast warmer than standard lager fermentation temps.

I probably should just do it.

Go for it! And let us know!

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Just ran the test test again with the other brew club I'm a member of. 9 people took the test, 3 bjcp judges, the rest all seasoned brewers. 8 correctly identified the different beer. And it was evenly split on which beer was preferred, one person did give a preference. We did the test outside on a patio and most said they used "visual" as their main reason for the difference. I didn't use opaque cups for either test, didn't have any, but the previous test was done inside a brewery v. outside on a bright day. I also took the test several time over the lagering period, but did it inside. The beers always looked identical to me, except for a slight head difference, which I fixed by dipsensing out of the same tap (two different types of taps.) Anyways, both were very good beers.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Go for it! And let us know!

Went through my no chill cubes, and found a munich dunkel. Dark munich, Barke pils and choc wheat. I think that will work very well. I find 940 to be clean and malty. It's winter here now ( well, Australian winter so not too cold ), and my fridge can probably maintain 13-14c.

Cube is now in the fridge cooling down and tomorrow i'll make the starter. Should be fermenting by the weekend

 

[BrewerofBeers]

I forgot about my warm-fermented lager until I saw this thread. I have it stored in a keg under pressure. So I checked my notes and it's been 2 years! I've never even tasted it or smelled it. It fermented at about 12 psi in the mid 60s F. Tried to go No-O2. Now I'm thinking about how to get it out. I guess I can chill it and apply pressure.

 

[Miraculix]

I forgot about my warm-fermented lager until I saw this thread. I have it stored in a keg under pressure. So I checked my notes and it's been 2 years! I've never even tasted it or smelled it. It fermented at about 12 psi in the mid 60s F. Tried to go No-O2. Now I'm thinking about how to get it out. I guess I can chill it and apply pressure.

Wow.... How strong is it? Still on the yeast?

 

[Halfakneecap]

Pitched a big starter of WLP940 at 13c. I know its not too warm, but either way im keen to try it, compared to my usual 10c with this yeast.


I will doing a dry July and August, so it'll get a 2 month lagering period. Will be looking forward to it. I've kept some yeast from the starter for when summer comes around. If i haven't ugraded my fermentation fridge by then, ill try it at 15c

 

[BrewerofBeers]

Wow.... How strong is it? Still on the yeast?

It's gonna be pretty light. OG 1.042 with WY2565 Kolsch Yeast. Yep, it's on yeast. I never thought it would go untouched for 2 years. I'll definitely update here when I can. I don't currently have a mini fridge or any CO2 remaining so I might de-gas it, transfer it off the yeast into bottles, and add fresh yeast and priming sugar.

If I dispense under pressure, I'll need to get it cold and get some CO2.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'm more than happy with both S189 and S23 at 14-15c.

I'm really interested to know if anyone has fermented WLP940 Mex lager yeast warmer than cold ?

It's a close relative of S-23, so that should give you some idea.

 

[Halfakneecap]

It's a close relative of S-23, so that should give you some idea.

Really ? I’ve used both and find them quite different.

 

[Shenanigans]

Well I brewed a NZ Pilsner on Sunday with Diamond Lager and fermenting at room temperature.
It's a little bit warmer than usual in my basement at 20oC compared to the usual 18oC.
Let's see how it turns out, took about 12 hours before the airlock started bubbling.
Recipe is below for anyone who's interested.
Still trying to decide if I will add some dry hops or not.
I also expect it to finish a few points lower than estimated by BS.

 

[worlddivides]

So I tried S-23 for the first time, and now I'm REALLY confused why there's so much hate for it. I originally bought it because it was on sale and I had never used it before, but afterwards I looked online to see overwhelming hatred for it from so many homebrewers. In particular, with the famous "Denny" saying that it made the worst beer he had ever made that he ended up dumping.

During my first gravity sample, I got some very very mild, light esters, but it was very pleasant and clean. With my second (and final) gravity sample, the esters were extremely faint. Maybe more than with W-34/70, but if so, only minisculely more. When I kegged it, I massively keg hopped (which had been my plan from the beginning), and now with it fully carbed up, it's just extremely clean. Now, people will say that if I didn't dry hop it and instead just made a very subtle, delicate lager with very little hop flavor or aroma, it would be completely different. Maybe, but I wouldn't make a beer like that, and at it's current state, it tastes very similar to the W-34/70 West Coast Pils I made in December.

Even from the perspective of attenuation, the W-34/70 was 89% attenuation while the S-23 is 86% attenuation. They're both very dry, crisp, clean lagers with no off-flavors that I think taste very good.

On the one hand, if S-23 was such an unpopular yeast, I doubt Fermentis would still be selling it, but I really can't see where the hate comes from.

That said, I don't see myself picking S-23 over W-34/70 in the future. But I also don't see any reason not to buy S-23 in the future if I see it sold for cheaper than W-34/70 (which was the main reason I tried it out in the first place). My next lager will probably be a New Zealand Pilsner and will probably be with W-34/70 (though Diamond is one I'd be interested in trying), but I bet I could make a really tasty beer using S-23 there too.

 

[Halfakneecap]

So I tried S-23 for the first time, and now I'm REALLY confused why there's so much hate for it. I originally bought it because it was on sale and I had never used it before, but afterwards I looked online to see overwhelming hatred for it from so many homebrewers. In particular, with the famous "Denny" saying that it made the worst beer he had ever made that he ended up dumping.

During my first gravity sample, I got some very very mild, light esters, but it was very pleasant and clean. With my second (and final) gravity sample, the esters were extremely faint. Maybe more than with W-34/70, but if so, only minisculely more. When I kegged it, I massively keg hopped (which had been my plan from the beginning), and now with it fully carbed up, it's just extremely clean. Now, people will say that if I didn't dry hop it and instead just made a very subtle, delicate lager with very little hop flavor or aroma, it would be completely different. Maybe, but I wouldn't make a beer like that, and at it's current state, it tastes very similar to the W-34/70 West Coast Pils I made in December.

Even from the perspective of attenuation, the W-34/70 was 89% attenuation while the S-23 is 86% attenuation. They're both very dry, crisp, clean lagers with no off-flavors that I think taste very good.

On the one hand, if S-23 was such an unpopular yeast, I doubt Fermentis would still be selling it, but I really can't see where the hate comes from.

That said, I don't see myself picking S-23 over W-34/70 in the future. But I also don't see any reason not to buy S-23 in the future if I see it sold for cheaper than W-34/70 (which was the main reason I tried it out in the first place). My next lager will probably be a New Zealand Pilsner and will probably be with W-34/70 (though Diamond is one I'd be interested in trying), but I bet I could make a really tasty beer using S-23 there too.

I had the same thought when i tried it, i really like it, and wondered why the negative reviews. I like it over S189. Well, for clean lagers i use S189 and for euro lagers i use S23. I use liquid strains as well but dry is just so good now.


It's a commercially available brewing yeast, so there are plenty of people who make beer for a living that use it obviously.

 

[ncbrewer]

worlddivides and halfakneecap: Did you fermente warm? How about pressure?

 

[mashdar]

I wouldn't say I hate it; it's just a distinct plum note I wasn't going for. I don't get any plum from 34/70 and 189.

I only fermented S-23 ~50F, and only in pale malty lagers with hallertauer mittelfruh/saaz. Not super applicable to the thread. Maybe it's like US-05 and gets fruity at lower temperature.

 

[worlddivides]

worlddivides and halfakneecap: Did you fermente warm? How about pressure?

Warm, yes (hence this thread). Pressure, no. I was originally planning to ferment at 59F (15C), but I accidentally spilled about 15-20% of the package when I was pitching the yeast (the one and only time I've ever done that in my life, frustrates me even now to think about), so I raised the temperature to 63F (17C) to make sure the yeast could ferment without being stressed as an underpitch.

I have seen some people online say that S-23 is less fruity at higher temperatures, which is the opposite of what you'd normally think since esters tend to increase as temperature increases (though as Mashdar points out, US-05 apparently gets fruity on its lower range). I had also seen people who fermented both at the lower range and upper range of S-23 say that it had a more "lager" character at the higher temps, which also seems kind of odd when you think of lagers as "cold fermented, cold conditioned." I remember reading somewhere, though, that the only reason why ancient brewers fermented lagers cold was because there was no such thing as a "pure pitch" and fermenting cold was the only way for the lager yeast to ferment the beer while the ale yeast (and any wild yeasts or bacteria) would be dormant at those temperatures. Fermenting at more typical temperatures would let the ale yeast flavor dominate. Nowadays with modern science, we're able to pitch just a single yeast and nothing else.

 

[Halfakneecap]

worlddivides and halfakneecap: Did you fermente warm? How about pressure?

No pressure, 15c. Clean but with a very pleasant ( to me ) ester.

 

[HM-2]

Doing a rice lager at the moment. NovaLager around 20°C and 8PSI. Worked very well in imperial (7.4%) form last year, expecting the 5% version will also be good.

 

[ncbrewer]

Thanks worlddivides and halfakneecap. I didn’t like the esters I got the one time I used S-23 - wondered if different conditions affected the results. I fermented at 66F without pressure, so a little warmer than yours. Hard to say if it made the difference. Maybe the difference is just in the perception - beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder. (I didn’t make that up - copied it from someone.)

 

[Shenanigans]

Well I brewed a NZ Pilsner on Sunday with Diamond Lager and fermenting at room temperature.
It's a little bit warmer than usual in my basement at 20oC compared to the usual 18oC.
Let's see how it turns out, took about 12 hours before the airlock started bubbling.
Recipe is below for anyone who's interested.
Still trying to decide if I will add some dry hops or not.
I also expect it to finish a few points lower than estimated by BS.

View attachment 879479

Reporting back on this now that it is 2 weeks in the bottle, I didn't dry hop BTW.
Like I expected it finished lower than predicted at 1.011.
I must say Motuka and Nelson are a great hop combination, very tasty.
This beer tastes more like a pale ale than a Pilsner but I'm a hophead so I'm enjoying it.
I don't get any off flavours from the yeast from fermenting warm but it's still very cloudy and can't help but think that it would taste even better if it cleared up. I'm not sure if the cloudiness is coming from the wheat or the yeast. It's my first time brewing with Diamond and it sould be a good flocculator.
I'll put a few bottles in the fridge for a week and see if that helps.

 

[dmtaylor]

it's still very cloudy and can't help but think that it would taste even better if it cleared up. I'm not sure if the cloudiness is coming from the wheat or the yeast. It's my first time brewing with Diamond and it sould be a good flocculator.
I'll put a few bottles in the fridge for a week and see if that helps.

The haze could be from the large whirlpool hop addition. It will probably clear some with more age but never be brilliant.

 

[balrog]

I've got a warm fermented lager question. I recently had a Tucher Helles which was frickin' awesome. No idea what the trip over from Germany to Massachusetts adds. Therefore, I'm considering trying to make it. Brief research mentions mixture of barrel aged with newly fermented and I'm not really sure I'm willing to do all that, so hitting the target may be a moot point. But the main thing that hit me was the malty flavor not up front nor in the background but fully there in the middle Greek chorus. This made me think of Weyerman Barke pils and vienna, as I was thinking of trying to fashion after this recipe by @jdauria . Another sad fact is I really cannot do 50-55F ferment, hence the post here in this thread. I've had pretty good luck, according to the tennis guys' feedback, on 34/70, pitch 62F, ramp over 3d to 68F and hold.

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[Miraculix]

I've got a warm fermented lager question. I recently had a Tucher Helles which was frickin' awesome. No idea what the trip over from Germany to Massachusetts adds. Therefore, I'm considering trying to make it. Brief research mentions mixture of barrel aged with newly fermented and I'm not really sure I'm willing to do all that, so hitting the target may be a moot point. But the main thing that hit me was the malty flavor not up front nor in the background but fully there in the middle Greek chorus. This made me think of Weyerman Barke pils and vienna, as I was thinking of trying to fashion after this recipe by @jdauria . Another sad fact is I really cannot do 50-55F ferment, hence the post here in this thread. I've had pretty good luck, according to the tennis guys' feedback, on 34/70, pitch 62F, ramp over 3d to 68F and hold.

Thoughts, anyone?

View attachment 882287

Have not had that one, but for a helles I would always want to use imperial harvest. Also warm.

 

[balrog]

Have not had that one, but for a helles I would always want to use imperial harvest. Also warm.

Simple ferment temp schedule of 65F or 68F? No ramping, or messing around with it?

 

[Miraculix]

Simple ferment temp schedule of 65F or 68F? No ramping, or messing around with it?

I've fermented it at ambient temperature without doing anything and the result was great.

 

[jdauria]

I've got a warm fermented lager question. I recently had a Tucher Helles which was frickin' awesome. No idea what the trip over from Germany to Massachusetts adds. Therefore, I'm considering trying to make it. Brief research mentions mixture of barrel aged with newly fermented and I'm not really sure I'm willing to do all that, so hitting the target may be a moot point. But the main thing that hit me was the malty flavor not up front nor in the background but fully there in the middle Greek chorus. This made me think of Weyerman Barke pils and vienna, as I was thinking of trying to fashion after this recipe by @jdauria . Another sad fact is I really cannot do 50-55F ferment, hence the post here in this thread. I've had pretty good luck, according to the tennis guys' feedback, on 34/70, pitch 62F, ramp over 3d to 68F and hold.

Thoughts, anyone?

View attachment 882287

Just to be clear, my recipe you linked is for a Helles Export, what the BJCP used to call a Dortumder or Dortmunder Export, BJCP category 5C not a Helles which is 4A. It's more bitterness forward vs a Helles which is malt forward, BJCP styles can be confusing what with a Helles, Helles Export and a Helles Bock, the last which is basically a higher ABV Helles.

A Helles can be a simple beer from something like 95% Pilsner (i prefer Barke) 5% Carahell, to 90% Pilsner 10% Vienna and around 20-22 IBUs of Noble hops and a lager yeast that accents maltiness.

I had good success with my last Helles that had a little more malt variety. It was my highest scoring Helles in comps with a 45/50. I did the following:

56.8% Eraclea Pils IWeyernann)
31.5% Barke Pils
7.8% Weyermann Cologne Malt
1.9% CaraHell

12 IBUs Tettnang FWH
7 IBUs Tettnang at 50 mins

WLP838 Southern German Lager

1.050 OG
68% Brewhouse Effciency

 

[balrog]

56.8% Eraclea Pils IWeyernann)
31.5% Barke Pils
7.8% Weyermann Cologne Malt

Hmm. Seems difficult to easily source all 3 of those.

 

[jdauria]

Hmm. Seems difficult to easily source all 3 of those.

Are you outside of the US, thought I saw you mention you were a fellow Mass resident. Northern Brewer here in US carries all three, though I am not a big fan of buying from them. You definitely can make a Helles without 3 base malts...I used all three because I had some Eraclea left from making an Italian Pilsner and Cologone malt on hand because i use it in my Kolsch and Altbiers. You can make a delicious Helles as I mentioned with something like 90/10 Pilsner/Vienna or 95/5 Pilsner and CaraHell. I mean you could even get by with all Pilsner malt, but it would have to be on the higher lovibond scale of pilsner malts so you get that Helles golden color instead of a light yellow.

 

[balrog]

Are you outside of the US, thought I saw you mention you were a fellow Mass resident. Northern Brewer here in US carries all three, though I am not a big fan of buying from them. You definitely can make a Helles without 3 base malts...I used all three because I had some Eraclea left from making an Italian Pilsner and Cologone malt on hand because i use it in my Kolsch and Altbiers. You can make a delicious Helles as I mentioned with something like 90/10 Pilsner/Vienna or 95/5 Pilsner and CaraHell. I mean you could even get by with all Pilsner malt, but it would have to be on the higher lovibond scale of pilsner malts so you get that Helles golden color instead of a light yellow.

No you’re right, fellow Masshole, only saw two of three at northern, will re-check, figured I’d get by w Cologne and Barke Pils. Appreciate everything. Thanks

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Does anyone in the thread have experience warm fermenting WLP833 German bock lager yeast? I can probably clear my one keezer out to ferment and lager properly but it'd be nice to set this one on my basement floor with a spunding valve and let er rip. My basement this time of year is 70f but will hopefully start dropping soon. Come on fall !!!

 

[dmtaylor]

Does anyone in the thread have experience warm fermenting WLP833 German bock lager yeast? I can probably clear my one keezer out to ferment and lager properly but it'd be nice to set this one on my basement floor with a spunding valve and let er rip. My basement this time of year is 70f but will hopefully start dropping soon. Come on fall !!!

Yep, been a couple years but from what I recall, I liked the result very much.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Yep, been a couple years but from what I recall, I liked the result very much.

Cool thanks, I was thinking 70f at maybe 15psi

 

[ncbrewer]

My basement this time of year is 70f but will hopefully start dropping soon. Come on fall !!!

I use a swamp cooler with ice bottles. But I've found that when I leave it alone with no ice, evaporation lowers the temperature by 2 or 3 degrees below room temperature.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I use a swamp cooler with ice bottles. But I've found that when I leave it alone with no ice, evaporation lowers the temperature by 2 or 3 degrees below room temperature.

I have 3 glycol controlled fermenters so its usually not an issue for me, but this will be a small batch for me, 5gal instead of my usually 15 to 25.. in a couple months my basement will be a perfect 55f haha, bad timing on my part. However I did use the swamp cooler method in the past and you make a very good point!

 

[dmtaylor]

Cool thanks, I was thinking 70f at maybe 15psi

Everybody gotta piss off the yeast.

No pressure needed.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Everybody gotta piss off the yeast.

No pressure needed.

Haha, gotcha. I'll just let it rip.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Everybody gotta piss off the yeast.

No pressure needed.

Good to know, thanks.

 

[Shenanigans]

I brewed a German Doppelbock at 68F with no pressure in my basement with 833 about 18 months ago. Turned out great.
From the research I did at the time it was the same for many, one of the best yeasts for doing a warm fermented lager.

 

[Conehead]

I brewed a Helles on June 15 using 34/70 at 66F. I don't like it. Kind of fruity. No sulphur or diacetyl. I won't do it again.