Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[JohnSand]

I've brewed three with 34/70, generally fermented in the upper 50s. None were quite where I wanted them.
I'm drinking an M54 batch right now which is good. A dozen guys at a homebrew meeting found no fault with it. It has definitely improved in three weeks in the keg. I still hope to make better lagers, but I'm pleased with the M54.

 

[Mothman]

I ordered ingredient to make the BYO Munich Dunkel.

I was going to wait for spring but wanted to get it underway sooner.

And I've decided to follow the spirit of this thread and not worry about managing temps with my fermentation cooler, and instead will just let it go in my coolish storage room (typically sits low to mid 60s F).

I'll be using 34/70 for this, my first go at a "lager".

I'm figuring I'll aim for 3 weeks in primary, bottle condition for 3 weeks, then store. Sound OK?

I don't have enough room in the fridge to chill all the bottles at once... But I'm thinking I'll store them in my normal storage location which is an uninsulated crawl space, which is fairly cool (low 50's) and move bottles to the fridge for a couple weeks as I work through them.

Alternatively I could put them all through a couple weeks in the fridge,.in shifts, before moving to storage, then back to the fridge before consumption.

Anyone have any input on that?

 

[jahlinux]

I ordered ingredient to make the BYO Munich Dunkel.

I was going to wait for spring but wanted to get it underway sooner.

And I've decided to follow the spirit of this thread and not worry about managing temps with my fermentation cooler, and instead will just let it go in my coolish storage room (typically sits low to mid 60s F).

I'll be using 34/70 for this, my first go at a "lager".

I'm figuring I'll aim for 3 weeks in primary, bottle condition for 3 weeks, then store. Sound OK?

I don't have enough room in the fridge to chill all the bottles at once... But I'm thinking I'll store them in my normal storage location which is an uninsulated crawl space, which is fairly cool (low 50's) and move bottles to the fridge for a couple weeks as I work through them.

Alternatively I could put them all through a couple weeks in the fridge,.in shifts, before moving to storage, then back to the fridge before consumption.

Anyone have any input on that?

Go for it! 34/70 yeast works great at 65F. I've brewed a few lagers using it and only ferment at ale temps. Let us know how it comes out.

 

[applescrap]

For my light lager, the sulfur has cleared with about 30 purges, and it is really nice. I think next time it needs some yeast nutrient due to the sugar addition? Also pitched the yeast warm. Taking its sweet time to fully clear, but is very light and refreshing. Just what I was looking for. It tastes like a german light beer, havent had many in a while to be specific to brand, but it tastes like that. The golden promise is nice. The no chill I think for this style works well. Gives the brew a 3 hour boil for the price of 45 minutes. Not even sure more than 30 min boil even matters since it sits so long hot. Anywho the edition of sugar is what I was missing. All my beers really could use a little thinner body it seems. Very little hops also turned out to be what I was looking for. Balancing the lightness, the sulfur, the crisp mouth feel all together.

 

[Mothman]

But I'm thinking I'll store them in my normal storage location which is an uninsulated crawl space, which is fairly cool (low 50's) and move bottles to the fridge for a couple weeks as I work through them.

Alternatively I could put them all through a couple weeks in the fridge,.in shifts, before moving to storage, then back to the fridge before consumption.

Anyone have any input on that?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Would I be better off, AFTER bottle conditioning/carbing, to:

a - move all bottles to cool (not cold) storage, and then move a few bottles at a time to the fridge for some time before consumption, or

b - rotate as many bottles as I can fit at a time through 2-3 weeks in the fridge, then move to cool storage, then back to fridge before consumption?

Reason for the question is I'm wondering if some time cold 'lagering' in the bottles is important, before putting the bottles into cool storage. Or if, conversely, putting the bottles into refrigeration, out into a warmer (but still cool) location, then back to refrigeration, is detrimental to the beer.

 

[Miraculix]

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Would I be better off, AFTER bottle conditioning/carbing, to:

a - move all bottles to cool (not cold) storage, and then move a few bottles at a time to the fridge for some time before consumption, or

b - rotate as many bottles as I can fit at a time through 2-3 weeks in the fridge, then move to cool storage, then back to fridge before consumption?

Reason for the question is I'm wondering if some time cold 'lagering' in the bottles is important, before putting the bottles into cool storage. Or if, conversely, putting the bottles into refrigeration, out into a warmer (but still cool) location, then back to refrigeration, is detrimental to the beer.

What do you want to achieve? If your aim is to achieve clear beer by speeding up the settling of the yeast, coolest temperature possible (above freezing temperature)helps.

Cool temperatures slow down every process in the beer, except yeast flocculation. So if your are not having issues with too much yeast in suspension, just store the beer somewhere and chill it down before drinking.

 

[Mothman]

What do you want to achieve?

Not sure to be honest. lol I'm a lager noob, but my limited knowledge of the traditional method to lager includes an extended period of cold conditioning, so I was wondering about how best to (somewhat) mimic that with my limited space situation. Perhaps the benefits of a secondary true lagering is rendered ineffective once the beer is in a bottle, in which case there's no point doing it.

If it won't make any discernible difference to the beer, beyond clarity, then I'll stick with what I do for ales, and move them to cool storage, then to the fridge before drinking.

 

[Miraculix]

Not sure to be honest. lol I'm a lager noob, but my limited knowledge of the traditional method to lager includes an extended period of cold conditioning, so I was wondering about how best to (somewhat) mimic that with my limited space situation. Perhaps the benefits of a secondary true lagering is rendered ineffective once the beer is in a bottle, in which case there's no point doing it.

If it won't make any discernible difference to the beer, beyond clarity, then I'll stick with what I do for ales, and move them to cool storage, then to the fridge before drinking.

This is basically how I do it. If there is stuff to be cleaned up, I leave it for longer on the yeast cake in primary. Two or three weeks and from there it should be as good as it gets. I am not quite sure if traditional cold conditioning isn't possible in the bottle, but on the other hand I see nothing that traditional cold conditioning actually does (except for the flocculation thing). All the chemical and biological processes are slowed down due to the cold temperature. Whatever happens during cold conditioning should happen faster during room temperature conditioning. But I am no expert, just applying what I know about chemistry and biology. Maybe there is something I am missing?

 

[dkeller12]

Not sure to be honest. lol I'm a lager noob, but my limited knowledge of the traditional method to lager includes an extended period of cold conditioning, so I was wondering about how best to (somewhat) mimic that with my limited space situation. Perhaps the benefits of a secondary true lagering is rendered ineffective once the beer is in a bottle, in which case there's no point doing it.

If it won't make any discernible difference to the beer, beyond clarity, then I'll stick with what I do for ales, and move them to cool storage, then to the fridge before drinking.

I cannot tell you the best way to go about it, but I can tell you what I have done which has resulted in a great beer.

After bottling I left them at room temperature (approx. 67-68) degrees for nearly 2 weeks. Then I put a few in the fridge for "testing" [emoji16] and the rest went into my garage that maintains roughly mid 50's this time of year. I add more to the fridge as make room for them, so they are primarily stored in the cool garage without any issues. My carbonation level is right where I wanted it and the yeast is definitely starting to drop out making this a great, clean "lager".

Hope that helps.

 

[Mothman]

Thanks guys (Miraculix and dkeller).

I'll keep it simple and go with that.

 

[EDF713]

Thanks guys (Miraculix and dkeller).

I'll keep it simple and go with that.

I'll add my two cents, before I kegged I bottled some lagers, and followed a similar process the others posted. I fermented as usual, bottled after a cold crash, left them at room temp a couple weeks to carb up, then just kept them in the fridge. From what I read at the time it's fine to lager in the bottle, at least it was in my experience. This gave the beer a chance to clear up any chill haze, for any yeast suspended to drop out, etc. As long as you pour carefully, the beer will be great. I do live in Houston, TX, so the only cool place to store things is in the fridge! Basements and winter don't exist here...

 

[Samudell]

Here it was day 4 or so. Its done I am sure. At that alcohol the yeast got right to work. I am going to rack it with lime. Haha, lot of work for some bud light lime. Now if only they made Bud Light Lime with golden promise and quality cane sugar.View attachment 605522

What was ur recipe?

 

[catdaddy66]

Getting ready to wake up to krausen 24 hours after pitching wlp810 in my California common this am. Nothing so far (@ 12 hours post pitch) but the starter was healthy and large at 36 hours old. I did drop the ambient temp to 54° after pitching but let that rise to 57°. Fingers are crossed!

 

[thehaze]

I just bottled my Vienna Lager yesterday and it was pretty clear from the fermenter. I will post again once I will try a bottle.

 

[applescrap]

Not sure to be honest. lol I'm a lager noob, but my limited knowledge of the traditional method to lager includes an extended period of cold conditioning, so I was wondering about how best to (somewhat) mimic that with my limited space situation. Perhaps the benefits of a secondary true lagering is rendered ineffective once the beer is in a bottle, in which case there's no point doing it.

If it won't make any discernible difference to the beer, beyond clarity, then I'll stick with what I do for ales, and move them to cool storage, then to the fridge before drinking.

It's my understanding the longer and the colder they sit the better. Generally speaking staling is slowed down for all beers under cold temperatures. I was listening to the experimental Brewing brew file called going for the gold, and that person said they knew or maybe it was heard that Jamil Z. entered beers significantly after he made them, from his walk-in fridge. That kid who seeks gold medals in NHC and actually won one, said beer is fragile and should be treated that way. Whether someone wants to win an award or not this work is relevant for all of us. Storing the beers in the cold is good for them and I am going to guess people like Jamil and this kid will not have their beers outside of fridge temps hardly at all if ever once conditioned.

Chris White, of White Labs, on a I think it was beersmith podcast, talked about how he made lagers his favorite Style. Iirc he said that once he secondaries them in a Carboy he puts them in the fridge and doesn't touch them until he can see through the carboy completely. So put all this in your pipe and smoke it. I think for your case you will try to keep as many in the fridge as long as you can and the rest somewhere cool and then when you drink one put one back in the fridge. I think it's pretty universally accepted that these lager style beers get a little better with age. Bottom line age them as cold as you can.

 

[applescrap]

What was ur recipe?

It was brewing classic Styles light lager recipe with golden promise substituted for the grain. Also I used sugar instead of rice solid. I will have to look if you want exact sugar amounts, it was just enough to get it to that 1042 point. I did no chill because it was freezing out and I wanted full isomerization of the Hops which would happen as they sit in boiling hot water for extended periods of time. Also I think no chill mimicked the long boils that are championed by Brew professors. It's basically Bud Light done with really good grain. I went with pearl hops cuz they didn't have the recipe hops. And I did a very light amount, I have to check but I think it was one ounce for 10 gallons and that was also exactly what I was looking for. I think I have been over hopping almost all my beers.

 

[Mothman]

I think it's pretty universally accepted that these lager style beers get a little better with age.

Thanks Applescrap, for the advice.

Curious... in terms of these beers, what are people generally finding is the sweet spot for aging after packaging?

Are we talking several weeks? Months?

 

[jahlinux]

German Pilsner (Jamil Zainasheff’s Myburger from Brewing Classic Styles) it’s only been in the keg for three days. It was fermented at 65F for 19 days with W-34/70, I didn’t cold crash the fermenter, added gelatin to the keg on day two. Surprised at the clarity but it still needs to carb and clear up a little. Overall it’s a great tasting beer.

 

[Mothman]

Looks awesome!

 

[thehaze]

This is my recent Vienna Lager using W-34/70 at around 64F in the first 3 days and ramping up to 68-70F from the 4th days of fermentation. Hops used: Brewers Gold ( 2017 - Germany ) and Comet ( 2017 - German grown ). No dry hopping.

The picture is taken at 6 days in the bottle. Great lacing, carbonation, aroma and flavour. Clean, bready, toasty, biscuity, lots of citrus and citrus rind, some sweet grapefruit. I can see how Citra has Brewers Gold in its lineage and somewhat, why Comet is said to be Citra's little sister. Great combo. I urge people to use it.

PS: the beer is actually lighter in colour than it looks in the glass. Poor lightning due to the winter weather, with almost no sun, so it looks darker. But OK clarity - althoug I'm not one for clarity - for only 6 days at 68F and a 30 minutes turbo-chilling in the freezer.

 

[MakeDankBeer]

My helles with wlp830 has a bit of a burnt rubber/sulfur off flavor the last pilsner(wlp840) I did also had this same flavor but after a week in the keg it was gone. Anyone else experience this ? I thought it was from over dry hopping it but after reading another thread , BJCP says it is due to yeast. https://www.bjcp.org/docs/OffFlavorFlash.pdf

Well after a couple weeks/ a co2 scrub then sitting another week the off flavor is gone and I'm enjoying drinking it. My hopes for this went so low for this beer I re-brewed it with 34/70 which I kegged yesterday. SO now ill most likely have twice as much as intended and ill be taking a break from lagers haha.

 

[EDF713]

Well after a couple weeks/ a co2 scrub then sitting another week the off flavor is gone and I'm enjoying drinking it. My hopes for this went so low for this beer I re-brewed it with 34/70 which I kegged yesterday. SO now ill most likely have twice as much as intended and ill be taking a break from lagers haha.

Twice as much beer? Sounds like a good problem to have! Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[applescrap]

I noticed the light lager was killer last night, sulfur gone, but the amount one wants and starting to really clear. Sooo I went back and looked and sure enough, 6 weeks. Thats the number if you want to wait for better quality. Help keep an eye out for when yours reach that spot. I wonder how accurate 6 weeks is. Warm or cold fermented, these do get better with age. That sadly also means the other 5g has been sitting for 6 weeks. Need to secondary and get in fridge right away. Imagine if that was sitting in a carboy in the fridge for the last 4 weeks, two after fermentation.

 

[Mothman]

I managed to sneak in a brew day yesterday, and got the munich dunkel going I went with 34/70 yeast.

The brew day went well, hit all the target numbers, and as of this morning I noted the yeasties are starting to get going (airlock starting to show activity).

I've got it sitting in the 'brew room" (aka storage room lol ) , and the wort temp (as measured with an insulated probe on the side of the bucket) is around 58-59F. Will leave the bucket there for a few days, and then probably move it to a spot in a heated portion of the house and let it finish at room temp.

 

[dkeller12]

I managed to sneak in a brew day yesterday, and got the munich dunkel going I went with 34/70 yeast.

The brew day went well, hit all the target numbers, and as of this morning I noted the yeasties are starting to get going (airlock starting to show activity).

I've got it sitting in the 'brew room" (aka storage room lol ) , and the wort temp (as measured with an insulated probe on the side of the bucket) is around 58-59F. Will leave the bucket there for a few days, and then probably move it to a spot in a heated portion of the house and let it finish at room temp.

Very cool. I hope yours turns out as good as mine has. Right now it is perfectly clear and tastes wonderful.

Let us know how it turns out.

 

[catdaddy66]

With no option on temp control (digital) in the near future, I will need to embrace the warm lager fermentation if I want to brew some styles. I do have some modicum of average control with a swamp cooler, and have also had success with a German pilsner as well as several California commons. I need a bag of pilsner malt and lagers will thrive!

This thread is my muse...

 

[seatazzz]

Haven't done one of these in a while since I got my new temp controller and am able to do "traditional" fermented lagers...but I've got a Brut IPA in the ferment fridge right now so can't ferment this one at 50. Simple recipe, 11lbs two row and 3lbs pilsner, will get 1oz Cascade at 60 and 15 and will ferment at 64-66. We're going on vacation to Hawaii in two weeks, will turn down the fridge on this one while we're gone to do some lagering and see what we get when we get back.

 

[Mothman]

Question up front... is this cause for concern?

My current home brew batch is a warm fermented Munich dunkel. I used 34/70 lager yeast.

Started at 1.052 on Feb 10, held at mid 50’s F for 4 days then warmed to mid 60’s temp where it’s stayed.

I plan on leaving it for 3 weeks before bottling but I wanted to see if I was at FG (predicted by beersmith to be 1.013) so took a reading a couple days ago and again today, (will be 2 weeks in fermenter tomorrow ) both at 1.017.

That FG may not be exact as it’s from a refractometer , corrected for alcohol, but for sure the brix reading is consistent (7.6) both days.

I’m used to my FG dropping a couple points low, if anything, and I’m not accustomed to having it end several points high.

Mash temp was 153 and held well for the hour.

I gave the bucket a gentle swirl today and will leave it til next week anyways but just wondering if 1.017 FG for a dunkel is going to cause me issues?

The little sample I took for the refractometer reading tastes fine... possibly on the sweet side... but I know the flavour will change with carbonation.

 

[drchris83]

Depends. Did you use a lot of caramel malt in your grist?

 

[dkeller12]

Question up front... is this cause for concern?

My current home brew batch is a warm fermented Munich dunkel. I used 34/70 lager yeast.

Started at 1.052 on Feb 10, held at mid 50’s F for 4 days then warmed to mid 60’s temp where it’s stayed.

I plan on leaving it for 3 weeks before bottling but I wanted to see if I was at FG (predicted by beersmith to be 1.013) so took a reading a couple days ago and again today, (will be 2 weeks in fermenter tomorrow ) both at 1.017.

That FG may not be exact as it’s from a refractometer , corrected for alcohol, but for sure the brix reading is consistent (7.6) both days.

I’m used to my FG dropping a couple points low, if anything, and I’m not accustomed to having it end several points high.

Mash temp was 153 and held well for the hour.

I gave the bucket a gentle swirl today and will leave it til next week anyways but just wondering if 1.017 FG for a dunkel is going to cause me issues?

The little sample I took for the refractometer reading tastes fine... possibly on the sweet side... but I know the flavour will change with carbonation.

When I brewed that recipe, it took time to eat up the last few points as well. It slowed down around 1.018 and took 8 or more days to get down to my final gravity of 1.014. I let it come to room temperature and let it sit. I would say let it sit another week at room temperature and see where you are at.

From what I gathered reading this thread, lager yeasts just take more time finishing up.

FYI...this beer has been one of the best malt forward beers I have brewed and I have done a lot of them.

 

[applescrap]

The light lager has now come into its own. I have to look but I want to say its been 2 months. They seem to get better as they age and clear. This one is almost translucent, but still has the slightest haze. The simpsons gp is stellar and has that grainy flavor that seems to be ubiquitous in discussions. The lower ibus, quality grain, and lagering in our freezing rocky mtn winter has made this an enjoyable quaffer. It's good for weeknights when I only want a pint or two and not too many calories.

 

[bstacy1974]

My first warm fermented lager I guess. Sterling hops at 60,15,and 5. I'm getting lots of lemon/lime from them.
Kept the temp at 61 for 5 days in a water bath. The. Let it free rise to 68nfor another 5 days. Kegged, cold crashed, then added gelatin. Photo is after a week in keg. Flavor is still developing. Starting to get that lager vibe.

https://imgur.com/a/GdGpWXJ

 

[ncbrewer]

Question up front... is this cause for concern?

My current home brew batch is a warm fermented Munich dunkel. I used 34/70 lager yeast.

Started at 1.052 on Feb 10, held at mid 50’s F for 4 days then warmed to mid 60’s temp where it’s stayed.

I plan on leaving it for 3 weeks before bottling but I wanted to see if I was at FG (predicted by beersmith to be 1.013) so took a reading a couple days ago and again today, (will be 2 weeks in fermenter tomorrow ) both at 1.017.

That FG may not be exact as it’s from a refractometer , corrected for alcohol, but for sure the brix reading is consistent (7.6) both days.

I’m used to my FG dropping a couple points low, if anything, and I’m not accustomed to having it end several points high.

Mash temp was 153 and held well for the hour.

I gave the bucket a gentle swirl today and will leave it til next week anyways but just wondering if 1.017 FG for a dunkel is going to cause me issues?

The little sample I took for the refractometer reading tastes fine... possibly on the sweet side... but I know the flavour will change with carbonation.

That's a little worrisome to me because I just had a similar experience with a warm fermented Festbier, using Mangrove Jack's M54. Fermented at 67F for 5 days, then at 70F for a total of 20 days. Gravity reading at 18 days was 1.0148 - at 20 days it was 1.0139. (I use a bottling hydrometer that can has divisions every 1/2 gravity point, and I can easily read it to the nearest 1/4 gravity point, then adjust for temperature.) This is the first time I've ever had a drop in gravity after that long. Since it fermented warm the whole time, I expected it to finish on the same schedule as an ale. I delayed bottling - will wait and check again in a few more days.

 

[TNJake]

I've been following this thread for some time as I have done a couple light lagers with 2112 and interested in other people's experiences. After all the praise, I plan on giving the MJ variant a shot. I'm thinking a Shiner Bock clone for this trial. I've done it before, I believe using wlp820 and a more traditional lager method. Very Interested in making something similar without the fridge space.

 

[Mothman]

I just took another reading of my warm-fermented dunkel, and got same 7.6 brix (1.017 as per calculator) reading.

This time I decided to take a full sample to confirm with the hydrometer and got a 1.018, so... looks like this Dunkel is done! Will just be a little fuller body than intended lol. (and a half a % less abv)

The grain bill is 94% Munich malt, and I've never used it in such large amounts, maybe it impacts the attenuation. The recipe I used actually called for a step mash, which I didn't do, kinda went on faith it wouldn't matter, but maybe...?

Anyway... a side benefit of the larger hydro sample was I was able to get a better taste than the little sip from the refractometer sample, and I think the flavour will be just fine. I thought at first it might taste a little sweet, but the larger sample has me thinking it's more a maltiness, maybe a touch of caramel, than sweetness.

If all goes to plan I'll bottle it this Sunday.

 

[ncbrewer]

I have a Festbier in the fermenter using Mangrove Jack's M54 yeast. It was at 67F during active fermentation. It's really slow reaching final gravity (26 days at last gravity sample, and still dropping).(See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/fermentation-slow-to-finish.663219/#post-8537322 for details.) Has anybody else seen this using M54?

 

[Mothman]

First bottle of my first ever lager (warm fermented Munich dunkel).

Turned out darker than planned (More like a really dark amber ale, awesome red hue) and it needs another week to fully carb, but first impression is, it's great!

Smooth and easy drinking, but really malty. It finished at a higher gravity than intended but isn't too sweet.

This was a success .

 

[balrog]

Dropping back in here after a hiatus. My first 34/70 was awful, ferm at 60°F threw major peach esters. Did not try again.

Is the current consensus with warm lagers to do 34/70 in upper 60's, or go with MJ54 at ??°F?

I've brewed three with 34/70, generally fermented in the upper 50s. None were quite where I wanted them.
I'm drinking an M54 batch right now which is good. A dozen guys at a homebrew meeting found no fault with it. It has definitely improved in three weeks in the keg. I still hope to make better lagers, but I'm pleased with the M54.

@JohnSand - what recipe/fermschedule?

 

[treacheroustexan]

Dropping back in here after a hiatus. My first 34/70 was awful, ferm at 60°F threw major peach esters. Did not try again.

Is the current consensus with warm lagers to do 34/70 in upper 60's, or go with MJ54 at ??°F?



@JohnSand - what recipe/fermschedule?

My 34/70 Oktoberfest at 60f turned out awful too.

 

[MakeDankBeer]

my last 34/70 at 68-70 was great, I've been planning on brewing another using the same.