Vitamin C - The Game Changer?

[tracer bullet]

I was going to suggest some testing but you've already got it lined up. Will be interested in the water test results.

Seems like (careful word choice) AA would be more helpful in a hoppier beer... and if it does have a detectable flavor on its own, perhaps in said hoppier beer it'd be overwhelmed anyhow? This might be a level thing as well, if it is detectable, perhaps half as much would not be. But then it's full circle to whether it is effective or not.

 

[Miraculix]

I was going to suggest some testing but you've already got it lined up. Will be interested in the water test results.

Seems like (careful word choice) AA would be more helpful in a hoppier beer... and if it does have a detectable flavor on its own, perhaps in said hoppier beer it'd be overwhelmed anyhow? This might be a level thing as well, if it is detectable, perhaps half as much would not be. But then it's full circle to whether it is effective or not.

Luckily, I got my almond problem here, wich clearly shows up if there is not sufficient AA added for hot side oxidation protection. Doesn't tell me anything about how much ends up in the bottle and protects the beer potentially there, but at least we see if it is enough to do something in the mash and boil.

 

[micraftbeer]

I did a 3-batch brew experiment a couple of days ago, comparing different mash additives. I made an APA with 91% 2-row, and 9% Victory malt. I used my filtered house tap water and then added brewing salts to hit a "Mild Hoppy" profile from Brewfather. I have tested the mineral content of my filtered house water using a LaMotte Brew Lab kit. I then added 88% Lactic Acid to target a mash pH of 5.39 (using Brewfather predictions that have been pretty good for me). These were the results of the 3 batches:

1. Batch 1 I added 7.5 g of bread yeast + 7.5 g of dextrose priming/bottling sugar to my 3.8 gallons of mash water (and another 7.5g/7.5g to the 3.8 gallons of strike water). 30 - 40 minutes into my 60 minute mash, I measured pH 5.41.

2. Batch 2 instead of yeast/sugar, I added 2.6g of Ascorbic Acid powder. This measured pH 5.3.

3. Batch 3 had neither yeast/sugar nor AA. This measured pH 5.3.

All 3 of these had the 2-row all from the same 50-lb sack of Briess Brewer's Malt. The Victory malt was bought in one 3-lb bag from my LHBS and split across these 3 batches. So maybe the 0.1 pH is meter variation, or some other variable. Unless someone has some science-y explanation of why the YOS water combination would result in a slightly higher pH?

 

[hopjuice_71]

I did a 3-batch brew experiment a couple of days ago, comparing different mash additives. I made an APA with 91% 2-row, and 9% Victory malt. I used my filtered house tap water and then added brewing salts to hit a "Mild Hoppy" profile from Brewfather. I have tested the mineral content of my filtered house water using a LaMotte Brew Lab kit. I then added 88% Lactic Acid to target a mash pH of 5.39 (using Brewfather predictions that have been pretty good for me). These were the results of the 3 batches:

1. Batch 1 I added 7.5 g of bread yeast + 7.5 g of dextrose priming/bottling sugar to my 3.8 gallons of mash water (and another 7.5g/7.5g to the 3.8 gallons of strike water). 30 - 40 minutes into my 60 minute mash, I measured pH 5.41.

2. Batch 2 instead of yeast/sugar, I added 2.6g of Ascorbic Acid powder. This measured pH 5.3.

3. Batch 3 had neither yeast/sugar nor AA. This measured pH 5.3.

All 3 of these had the 2-row all from the same 50-lb sack of Briess Brewer's Malt. The Victory malt was bought in one 3-lb bag from my LHBS and split across these 3 batches. So maybe the 0.1 pH is meter variation, or some other variable. Unless someone has some science-y explanation of why the YOS water combination would result in a slightly higher pH?

I would have expected the YOS sample to have a slightly lower pH. The dissolution of CO2 produced by the yeast to create carbonic acid should have lowered the pH slightly. Though this probably would all have been mostly driven off heating to mash temp .. .. well, this was a useless train of thought... Might have been a measurement anomaly or maybe a slight issue with the lactic acid addition.

 

[Miraculix]

I did a 3-batch brew experiment a couple of days ago, comparing different mash additives. I made an APA with 91% 2-row, and 9% Victory malt. I used my filtered house tap water and then added brewing salts to hit a "Mild Hoppy" profile from Brewfather. I have tested the mineral content of my filtered house water using a LaMotte Brew Lab kit. I then added 88% Lactic Acid to target a mash pH of 5.39 (using Brewfather predictions that have been pretty good for me). These were the results of the 3 batches:

1. Batch 1 I added 7.5 g of bread yeast + 7.5 g of dextrose priming/bottling sugar to my 3.8 gallons of mash water (and another 7.5g/7.5g to the 3.8 gallons of strike water). 30 - 40 minutes into my 60 minute mash, I measured pH 5.41.

2. Batch 2 instead of yeast/sugar, I added 2.6g of Ascorbic Acid powder. This measured pH 5.3.

3. Batch 3 had neither yeast/sugar nor AA. This measured pH 5.3.

All 3 of these had the 2-row all from the same 50-lb sack of Briess Brewer's Malt. The Victory malt was bought in one 3-lb bag from my LHBS and split across these 3 batches. So maybe the 0.1 pH is meter variation, or some other variable. Unless someone has some science-y explanation of why the YOS water combination would result in a slightly higher pH?

What this does show is that with the given amount of AA, no significant pH change was detectable. That is good news.

 

[VikeMan]

Unless someone has some science-y explanation of why the YOS water combination would result in a slightly higher pH?

A little bit of a shot in the dark, but (in beer) yeast autolysis causes a pH rise.

 

[micraftbeer]

A bit more detail maybe on my YOS water preparation maybe helps (or not). I added all my brewing salts, k-meta tablet, lactic acid, and dextrose to the water while heating it up to 90F. I then added the dry yeast and then let it sit overnight (from about 1:30 AM until 7:30 AM) in my 65-degree basement without heat applied or water circulating.

 

[Miraculix]

Regarding me thinking that I might taste some of the vitamin c in the final product, nope! I just had a Flensburger Pilsener and this one tastes ten times stronger the way I thought I tasted in my beer with the 3.5g vitamin c pre-mash. It is just the normal acidity of a beer I guess.

 

[hopjuice_71]

So I acquired some ascorbic acid and my plan is to use it when I dry hop to provide a bit of protection. For those of you who do this, do you dissolve the powder first or just go for it? What sort of dose do you think is appropriate?

 

[JAReeves]

So I acquired some ascorbic acid and my plan is to use it when I dry hop to provide a bit of protection. For those of you who do this, do you dissolve the powder first or just go for it? What sort of dose do you think is appropriate?

I put it in a purged keg, made sure I purged it again with CO2 after the open-and-dump, and then did a closed-transfer.

 

[hopjuice_71]

I put it in a purged keg, made sure I purged it again with CO2 after the open-and-dump, and then did a closed-transfer.

Not sure I follow. I ferment in a keg (primary) and dry hop directly in this. I may or may not transfer to a serving keg, depending on the laziness factor. But it sounds like you are just using powder and not pre-dissolving?

 

[JAReeves]

Not sure I follow. I ferment in a keg (primary) and dry hop directly in this. I may or may not transfer to a serving keg, depending on the laziness factor. But it sounds like you are just using powder and not pre-dissolving?

That is correct, I allowed the natural agitation of the beer entering the keg to do whatever dissolving was going to happen.

 

[micraftbeer]

I posted about my experiment in another HBT thread here. But I recently brewed 3 batches of the same beer, altering mash water additions to add Ascorbic Acid powder in one, and making YOS water in another. My personal blind taste testing, plus a handful of neighbors blind tasting, was not able to differentiate the beers.

 

[Miraculix]

I posted about my experiment in another HBT thread here. But I recently brewed 3 batches of the same beer, altering mash water additions to add Ascorbic Acid powder in one, and making YOS water in another. My personal blind taste testing, plus a handful of neighbors blind tasting, was not able to differentiate the beers.

That is an interesting read. I think you might probably need to have some problems first to really taste a difference when the problem is gone. Also, and I think that one might be even more of an issue, I recently used the same amount of vitamin c in a beer that you did, even a tiny bit more, and the beer came out with slight oxidative issues, so it looks like the amount of vitamin c wasn't enough to really make a difference. At the end, all of your batches might have been slightly oxidised during the mash, that's why there was no detectable difference.

 

[McMullan]

Yet to try it out. My schedule got disrupted by phantom COVID I'm now trying to aim for being home alone over the Easter holiday, to do some binge brewing. Sorry, 'DIY' Things might get a bit messy without good planning. I might have to train the dog to use a paint brush

 

[Miraculix]

After my last attempt with a lower amount of Vitamin C failed, I will now use 4g on 20l and brew an apa, just because I am sick and tired of all the experiments I am doing while I could just produce a proven and nice beer instead.... And for experiments sake, I will try some rye malt instead of wheat just to see if the foam.... waaaaait a minute!

 

[McMullan]

Norway, officially the world's least self-sufficient country, has profiteering restrictions on 'food' imports?

As a stark reminder amidst the unfolding situation, a timely map of agricultural land in Europe surfaces.

Norway heads straight to the top of an exclusive in-the-**** list.

 

[McMullan]

But some hung up their horns (if they had any) and settled down. Some of my Derbyshire ancestors were them. For the record, I'm not a fan of Kviek strains for the most part.

BTW, Neanderthals probably were no more warlike than contemporaneous sapiens, but they certainly lived in Britain, and much less certainly maybe in Scandinavia. Modern English (the people and possibly the band) carry a healthy dollop of Neanderthal genes.

ETA: As this (off) topic is a hobby of mine, I disagree with some of what McMullan says below, but am reluctant to go forward with an off topic debate. If anyone wants details, PM me.

It's likely true that they were less war-like, at least from a struggle-for-existence point of view. Clearly, not successful there. That's why Europe's neanderthal populations contracted and went extinct locally, outside obvious refugia. Whatever happened to these 'special folk' after cowering in valleys, fiddling with first cousins for 1000 years? As a geneticist, I can make you wonder. I can make your toes curl. As an 'inferior imigrant' I can open your eyes and scare the Jesus out of you. These things are worse than barbarians. And I hate to be the one to inform you, but your distant ancestors from Derbyshire are significantly less related to you, genetically, than a random bus driver from down the road, regardless of his or her ethnicity. A little bit funny, me thinks.

So you claim Neanderthals didn't make it to what's Scandinavia today? That interesting, mainly because it makes no sense, whatsoever, in any associated field of study.

I'll leave you with this to contemplate, because the difference, the oddness, needs to be explained. Blaming foreigners doesn"t cut it, frankly.

 

[VikeMan]

It's likely true that they were less war-like, at least from a struggle-for-existence point of view. Clearly, not successful there. That's why Europe's neanderthal populations contracted and went extinct locally, outside obvious refugia. Whatever happened to these 'special folk' after cowering in valleys, fiddling with first cousins for 1000 years? As a geneticist, I can make you wonder. I can make your toes curl. As an 'inferior imigrant' I can open your eyes and scare the Jesus out of you. These things are worse than barbarians. And I hate to be the one to inform you, but your distant ancestors from Derbyshire are significantly less related to you, genetically, than a random bus driver from down the road, regardless of his or her ethnicity. A little bit funny, me thinks.

So you claim Neanderthals didn't make it to what's Scandinavia today? That interesting, mainly because it makes no sense, whatsoever, in any associated field of study.

I'll leave you with this to contemplate, because the difference, the oddness, needs to be explained. Blaming foreigners doesn"t cut it, frankly.

Ok then.

 

[micraftbeer]

I was all excited, thinking there was some new action, some new test/trial someone had done with Ascorbic Acid, and then... Maybe it should be split off into a thread called "How Closely Am I Related to Neanderthals, and What Grains Did They Use to Brew Beer?"

 

[Miraculix]

I was all excited, thinking there was some new action, some new test/trial someone had done with Ascorbic Acid, and then... Maybe it should be split off into a thread called "How Closely Am I Related to Neanderthals, and What Grains Did They Use to Brew Beer?"

I am using it regularly now, in every brew, together with the salts. Works well for me.

 

[Saunassa]

I am using it regularly now, in every brew, together with the salts. Works well for me.

So is there a consensus on the amount for 20L? Is 4 grams a proper amount?

 

[Miraculix]

So is there a consensus on the amount for 20L? Is 4 grams a proper amount?

I don't know, but that is what I use.

 

[DuncB]

Someone mentioned 4g early in the thread. I use a gram per 5 litres.

 

[McMullan]

I was all excited, thinking there was some new action, some new test/trial someone had done with Ascorbic Acid, and then... Maybe it should be split off into a thread called "How Closely Am I Related to Neanderthals, and What Grains Did They Use to Brew Beer?"

I used about 4g in a standard 23L batch of lager. The pH dropped marginally and I convinced myself I could detect a twang in the finished product. It was probably more to do with using dry yeast (Diamond). I'm now using 1g in 12L. Nothing to report so far, apart from it doesn't seem to have any detrimental effects and I occasionally forget to add it.

 

[JAReeves]

I make sure there is 1tsp in the keg when I transfer the beer from the fermenter. My beer is lasting longer with more consistent flavor. Anecdotal, but hey, we're amateurs.

 

[z-bob]

I just found this thread. Back on page 1 there were comments and questions about using ascorbic acid to dechlorinate tapwater. I use K-meta to dechlorinate my strike water, but [when I do a sparge] I use a Vitamin C tablet to dechlor and acidify the sparge water. I think they are 500mg tablets and it's usually about 6 to 8 quarts of water. I have no idea how much it actually acidifies; I haven't measured that. I mostly do full-volume mashes now without a sparge, (BIAB) but I can't see any harm in adding vitamin C to the kettle, or to the fermenter.

 

[Bobo1898]

If you're using AA in the mash only, should you be concerned if you use a copper immersion chiller?

Also, is everyone getting AA from homebrew shops or elsewhere? My LHBS doesn't carry it. Brewing this weekend and looking for something to come quick.

I'm seeing the LD Carlson AA @ $32/lb on Amazon (Ascorbic Acid - 1 lb.: Lab Chemical Acids: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific). But I'm also seeing other AA 1-lb options for $11-12 (Amazon.com: Nutricost Pure Ascorbic Acid Powder (Vitamin C) 1LB : Health & Household). Can I assume these are the same?

 

[cmac62]

I bought mine on Amazon, you may want to buy a smaller amount as it is not like brewing salts, effectiveness will fade with time (fresh is always better).

 

[Bobo1898]

I bought mine on Amazon, you may want to buy a smaller amount as it is not like brewing salts, effectiveness will fade with time (fresh is always better).

Good to know.

If the nutricost is the same stuff, I could probably use it in other daily food uses--smoothies, etc.