Vitamin C - The Game Changer?

[hopjuice_71]

I put it in a purged keg, made sure I purged it again with CO2 after the open-and-dump, and then did a closed-transfer.

Not sure I follow. I ferment in a keg (primary) and dry hop directly in this. I may or may not transfer to a serving keg, depending on the laziness factor. But it sounds like you are just using powder and not pre-dissolving?

 

[JAReeves]

Not sure I follow. I ferment in a keg (primary) and dry hop directly in this. I may or may not transfer to a serving keg, depending on the laziness factor. But it sounds like you are just using powder and not pre-dissolving?

That is correct, I allowed the natural agitation of the beer entering the keg to do whatever dissolving was going to happen.

 

[micraftbeer]

I posted about my experiment in another HBT thread here. But I recently brewed 3 batches of the same beer, altering mash water additions to add Ascorbic Acid powder in one, and making YOS water in another. My personal blind taste testing, plus a handful of neighbors blind tasting, was not able to differentiate the beers.

 

[Miraculix]

I posted about my experiment in another HBT thread here. But I recently brewed 3 batches of the same beer, altering mash water additions to add Ascorbic Acid powder in one, and making YOS water in another. My personal blind taste testing, plus a handful of neighbors blind tasting, was not able to differentiate the beers.

That is an interesting read. I think you might probably need to have some problems first to really taste a difference when the problem is gone. Also, and I think that one might be even more of an issue, I recently used the same amount of vitamin c in a beer that you did, even a tiny bit more, and the beer came out with slight oxidative issues, so it looks like the amount of vitamin c wasn't enough to really make a difference. At the end, all of your batches might have been slightly oxidised during the mash, that's why there was no detectable difference.

 

[McMullan]

Yet to try it out. My schedule got disrupted by phantom COVID I'm now trying to aim for being home alone over the Easter holiday, to do some binge brewing. Sorry, 'DIY' Things might get a bit messy without good planning. I might have to train the dog to use a paint brush

 

[Miraculix]

After my last attempt with a lower amount of Vitamin C failed, I will now use 4g on 20l and brew an apa, just because I am sick and tired of all the experiments I am doing while I could just produce a proven and nice beer instead.... And for experiments sake, I will try some rye malt instead of wheat just to see if the foam.... waaaaait a minute!

 

[McMullan]

Norway, officially the world's least self-sufficient country, has profiteering restrictions on 'food' imports?

As a stark reminder amidst the unfolding situation, a timely map of agricultural land in Europe surfaces.

Norway heads straight to the top of an exclusive in-the-**** list.

 

[McMullan]

But some hung up their horns (if they had any) and settled down. Some of my Derbyshire ancestors were them. For the record, I'm not a fan of Kviek strains for the most part.

BTW, Neanderthals probably were no more warlike than contemporaneous sapiens, but they certainly lived in Britain, and much less certainly maybe in Scandinavia. Modern English (the people and possibly the band) carry a healthy dollop of Neanderthal genes.

ETA: As this (off) topic is a hobby of mine, I disagree with some of what McMullan says below, but am reluctant to go forward with an off topic debate. If anyone wants details, PM me.

It's likely true that they were less war-like, at least from a struggle-for-existence point of view. Clearly, not successful there. That's why Europe's neanderthal populations contracted and went extinct locally, outside obvious refugia. Whatever happened to these 'special folk' after cowering in valleys, fiddling with first cousins for 1000 years? As a geneticist, I can make you wonder. I can make your toes curl. As an 'inferior imigrant' I can open your eyes and scare the Jesus out of you. These things are worse than barbarians. And I hate to be the one to inform you, but your distant ancestors from Derbyshire are significantly less related to you, genetically, than a random bus driver from down the road, regardless of his or her ethnicity. A little bit funny, me thinks.

So you claim Neanderthals didn't make it to what's Scandinavia today? That interesting, mainly because it makes no sense, whatsoever, in any associated field of study.

I'll leave you with this to contemplate, because the difference, the oddness, needs to be explained. Blaming foreigners doesn"t cut it, frankly.

 

[VikeMan]

It's likely true that they were less war-like, at least from a struggle-for-existence point of view. Clearly, not successful there. That's why Europe's neanderthal populations contracted and went extinct locally, outside obvious refugia. Whatever happened to these 'special folk' after cowering in valleys, fiddling with first cousins for 1000 years? As a geneticist, I can make you wonder. I can make your toes curl. As an 'inferior imigrant' I can open your eyes and scare the Jesus out of you. These things are worse than barbarians. And I hate to be the one to inform you, but your distant ancestors from Derbyshire are significantly less related to you, genetically, than a random bus driver from down the road, regardless of his or her ethnicity. A little bit funny, me thinks.

So you claim Neanderthals didn't make it to what's Scandinavia today? That interesting, mainly because it makes no sense, whatsoever, in any associated field of study.

I'll leave you with this to contemplate, because the difference, the oddness, needs to be explained. Blaming foreigners doesn"t cut it, frankly.

Ok then.

 

[micraftbeer]

I was all excited, thinking there was some new action, some new test/trial someone had done with Ascorbic Acid, and then... Maybe it should be split off into a thread called "How Closely Am I Related to Neanderthals, and What Grains Did They Use to Brew Beer?"

 

[Miraculix]

I was all excited, thinking there was some new action, some new test/trial someone had done with Ascorbic Acid, and then... Maybe it should be split off into a thread called "How Closely Am I Related to Neanderthals, and What Grains Did They Use to Brew Beer?"

I am using it regularly now, in every brew, together with the salts. Works well for me.

 

[Saunassa]

I am using it regularly now, in every brew, together with the salts. Works well for me.

So is there a consensus on the amount for 20L? Is 4 grams a proper amount?

 

[Miraculix]

So is there a consensus on the amount for 20L? Is 4 grams a proper amount?

I don't know, but that is what I use.

 

[DuncB]

Someone mentioned 4g early in the thread. I use a gram per 5 litres.

 

[McMullan]

I was all excited, thinking there was some new action, some new test/trial someone had done with Ascorbic Acid, and then... Maybe it should be split off into a thread called "How Closely Am I Related to Neanderthals, and What Grains Did They Use to Brew Beer?"

I used about 4g in a standard 23L batch of lager. The pH dropped marginally and I convinced myself I could detect a twang in the finished product. It was probably more to do with using dry yeast (Diamond). I'm now using 1g in 12L. Nothing to report so far, apart from it doesn't seem to have any detrimental effects and I occasionally forget to add it.

 

[JAReeves]

I make sure there is 1tsp in the keg when I transfer the beer from the fermenter. My beer is lasting longer with more consistent flavor. Anecdotal, but hey, we're amateurs.

 

[z-bob]

I just found this thread. Back on page 1 there were comments and questions about using ascorbic acid to dechlorinate tapwater. I use K-meta to dechlorinate my strike water, but [when I do a sparge] I use a Vitamin C tablet to dechlor and acidify the sparge water. I think they are 500mg tablets and it's usually about 6 to 8 quarts of water. I have no idea how much it actually acidifies; I haven't measured that. I mostly do full-volume mashes now without a sparge, (BIAB) but I can't see any harm in adding vitamin C to the kettle, or to the fermenter.

 

[Bobo1898]

If you're using AA in the mash only, should you be concerned if you use a copper immersion chiller?

Also, is everyone getting AA from homebrew shops or elsewhere? My LHBS doesn't carry it. Brewing this weekend and looking for something to come quick.

I'm seeing the LD Carlson AA @ $32/lb on Amazon (Ascorbic Acid - 1 lb.: Lab Chemical Acids: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific). But I'm also seeing other AA 1-lb options for $11-12 (Amazon.com: Nutricost Pure Ascorbic Acid Powder (Vitamin C) 1LB : Health & Household). Can I assume these are the same?

 

[cmac62]

I bought mine on Amazon, you may want to buy a smaller amount as it is not like brewing salts, effectiveness will fade with time (fresh is always better).

 

[Bobo1898]

I bought mine on Amazon, you may want to buy a smaller amount as it is not like brewing salts, effectiveness will fade with time (fresh is always better).

Good to know.

If the nutricost is the same stuff, I could probably use it in other daily food uses--smoothies, etc.

 

[cmac62]

It should be the same stuff, food grade vitamin C.

 

[DuncB]

I bought my first lot from a pharmacy. Cost 17 dollars for 125g.
Just bought second lot from catering supplies shop. 300g for 12 dollars so roughly ten and 7 US dollars.
I must check the pH effect on sparge water as I'm adding lactic acid as well.
I'm using 5g in the mash, 2g in sparge and 5g in the keg.

 

[McMullan]

I use a copper CF ZChiller for my full batches. I"ve been AA quite randomly (based on me remembering to add some to the mash). I haven't noted any negative effects using AA or a copper CF chiller.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Also, is everyone getting AA from homebrew shops or elsewhere? My LHBS doesn't carry it. Brewing this weekend and looking for something to come quick.

I picked up a 1 oz pack from RiteBrew along with a few other things. I have not really played around with using AA much though.

https://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/842483.htm

 

[DuncB]

I can't believe that Ascorbic acid which is a weak acid would effect the post boil pH at all. It's denatured by high temps and isn't a post boil beer pH going to be around 5 anyway?

Get a copper coin, put it in a glass with the appropriate dilution of ascorbic acid.
Do the same in another glass with post boil wort, I bet theyll both shine up nicely in time. Probably not as quick as coke but I'm not sure cokes pH.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

I might try adding 22 gm vitamin C to 22 litres of beer just before bottling. It won't do any harm I am sure, I have been brewing the same style of beer for many years and so I will be able to detect any significant improvement. Watch this space.

 

[McMullan]

22g? 1g/L? I suspect that has a noticeable effect on pH therefore flavour. Or did you mean 2g in 22L, @bobtheUKbrewer2? Have you tried 1g AA/L water? Personally, I'm not looking to change my beers that much I think we need to consider why it's being used. Chances are if a beer needed 1g/L to avoid detrimental levels of oxidation there's serious issues with either the ingredients used or cold side procedures.

 

[Miraculix]

I might try adding 22 gm vitamin C to 22 litres of beer just before bottling. It won't do any harm I am sure, I have been brewing the same style of beer for many years and so I will be able to detect any significant improvement. Watch this space.

At 1 g/l you will definitely taste it. That's too much.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

thanks Mcmullan and Miraculix ( M & M )
When I have a cold I add 5 gm vit C to 450 ml water - I can certainly taste that. But 1 gm per litre is 11 times less and masked by malt and hop flavours. And I use 150 gm hops per 22 litres. So I will risk it. Defo report back.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

thanks Mcmullan and Miraculix ( M & M )
When I have a cold I add 5 gm vit C to 450 ml water - I can certainly taste that. But 1 gm per litre is 11 times less and masked by malt and hop flavours. And I use 150 gm hops per 22 litres. So I will risk it. Defo report back.

Feel free to try and report back. The dosage values I have seen recommended are around 3g to 5g per 5 gallon batch, so about 0.16g to 0.26g per L.

 

[Miraculix]

thanks Mcmullan and Miraculix ( M & M )
When I have a cold I add 5 gm vit C to 450 ml water - I can certainly taste that. But 1 gm per litre is 11 times less and masked by malt and hop flavours. And I use 150 gm hops per 22 litres. So I will risk it. Defo report back.

Looking forward to hearing your results! I never tried that much, I'm quite curious now.

 

[wepeeler]

I make sure there is 1tsp in the keg when I transfer the beer from the fermenter. My beer is lasting longer with more consistent flavor. Anecdotal, but hey, we're amateurs.

Exactly what I've been doing, and I swear it makes the beer brighter and last longer.

 

[z-bob]

Has anyone tried adding low-dose sulphites to beer at bottling time as an antioxidant and preservative? Would that prevent bottle conditioning?

 

[JAReeves]

Has anyone tried adding low-dose sulphites to beer at bottling time as an antioxidant and preservative? Would that prevent bottle conditioning?

Based upon what I have done for wine, cider and mead, I would think that the sulfites would inhibit the yeast. I am sure there are a lot of articles in those forums regarding dosage; perhaps there have been experiments where someone did a half dose or quarter dose? Yeast still have some life, and also extra O2 protection?

 

[hardtofindanynick]

I really believe that ascorbic acid makes a difference. I've brewed some NEIPA's, bottled all of them and most of my batches are still nice and drinkable after 4-5 months. No color change, no cardboard taste. I use 5g for 20L batches, added directly to each bootle using syringe

 

[Miraculix]

Has anyone tried adding low-dose sulphites to beer at bottling time as an antioxidant and preservative? Would that prevent bottle conditioning?

Probably not as it does not kill yeast (at least not in the amount usually used) but inhibits the yeast from multiplying (is this correct English?).

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Has anyone tried adding low-dose sulphites to beer at bottling time as an antioxidant and preservative? Would that prevent bottle conditioning?

I tried once with a bottled conditioned Hazy IPA (ish) beer. At the time I did not have a strategy for measuring out the very small amount of a campden tablet that I would need for a single bottle. I just added a tiny amount. It is hard to say if I added too much or too little. In tasting, I felt like that bottle had a little more hop character than the control bottle, but it had much more oxidation than the bottles with the head space purged of air. I did not notice any issues with bottle carbonation.

My mini trial pointed at the amount of air left in a "standard fill" bottle as being the first issue that needs to be tackled. If you can reduce the amount of air/oxygen in the bottle to start with, likely anti-oxidants can be effective at cleaning up small amount of oxygen.

I to tend to think that oxidation of bottle conditioned beers is an issue that does not get the attention it deserves. In a recent trial batch that I bottled (a trial of US-05, Voss, and Lutra) I recently cracked open 3 bottles that were maybe 6 weeks in the bottle (stored at room temp most of the time). The US-05 bottle was darker with a noticeable oxidation character. The Voss and Lutra bottles did not show a color change but the flavors were bland and muted.

This is something that I have been wanting to cycle back to for a long time (including adding Ascorbic Acid into the trial, with better control over the measured amount added).
https://www.cascadeshomebrew.com/avoid-bottling-oxidation-for-hoppy-beers/

 

[Miraculix]

I tried once with a bottled conditioned Hazy IPA (ish) beer. At the time I did not have a strategy for measuring out the very small amount of a campden tablet that I would need for a single bottle. I just added a tiny amount. It is hard to say if I added too much or too little. In tasting, I felt like that bottle had a little more hop character than the control bottle, but it had much more oxidation than the bottles with the head space purged of air. I did not notice any issues with bottle carbonation.

My mini trial pointed at the amount of air left in a "standard fill" bottle as being the first issue that needs to be tackled. If you can reduce the amount of air/oxygen in the bottle to start with, likely anti-oxidants can be effective at cleaning up small amount of oxygen.

I to tend to think that oxidation of bottle conditioned beers is an issue that does not get the attention it deserves. In a recent trial batch that I bottled (a trial of US-05, Voss, and Lutra) I recently cracked open 3 bottles that were maybe 6 weeks in the bottle (stored at room temp most of the time). The US-05 bottle was darker with a noticeable oxidation character. The Voss and Lutra bottles did not show a color change but the flavors were bland and muted.

This is something that I have been wanting to cycle back to for a long time (including adding Ascorbic Acid into the trial, with better control over the measured amount added).
https://www.cascadeshomebrew.com/avoid-bottling-oxidation-for-hoppy-beers/

This is an easy fix, just leave as little head space as possible. We had multiple experiments here that all confirmed it, the air in the head space is the real driver of bottled beer`s oxidation issues. 5mm head space is the save spot for me. Lower and you risk cracked bottles due to thermal expansion of the liquid when temperature changes. 3 mm also worked for me... but to be on the safe side, I use 5mm.

 

[z-bob]

If you use plastic bottles you can get zero headspace; fill the bottle to the proper level with just a little headspace, then squeeze the bottle before you cap it. The bottle will expand back as it carbonates. Plastic bottles are more permeable to oxygen than glass bottles (I don't know if the amount is significant but I suspect it is) so long-term glass will still be better if you can eliminate the headspace. And there's a way to do that but I have trouble pulling it off...

Fill the bottle to the base of the neck normally. Then squirt a little beer into the bottle so it foams up to the top. Then cap it. The foam will displace the air with bubbles full of CO2. You could probably do about the same thing (I haven't tried it) by filling the bottle to the proper level, then shaking it gently to get it to foam up. If my beer is really gassy when I bottle it, the priming sugar makes it foam up and I get this for free.

I don't brew styles of beer where a little oxidation will hurt anything. So I either use the plastic-bottle-squeeze-it thing, or I use big bottles (quarts, 22s, and liters) so the amount of air in the headspace is not as significant compared to the volume of beer. Most of my beers are still good after 6 months if they somehow make it that long. But if I could use sulfites or AA as a preservative, maybe I could try some beer styles I'm not comfortable brewing with my equipment, like Festbier. (Costco didn't get any Hofbräu Oktoberfestbier this year, and the Paulaner O'fest only comes in a "Best of Munich" combo case.)

 

[DuncB]

@bobtheUKbrewer2
If you've been brewing same beer for ages I assume it's okay.
You're trying for marginal gain with an amount of ascorbic acid that is going to change your beer.
You'll have to save it for when you get a cold if it's not good and drink half a keg.
That'll help.