Using fermentation pressure to bottle

[ninkwood]

Alright, I have a feeling I'm going to get roasted for suggesting this but better that then I waste my time and money!

What I'm attempting to do:

I'll be brewing a few 3 gallon (both extract and all grain) batches using equipment I already own with the BIAB method. I want to ferment in a fermzilla all rounder with a spunding valve set to low pressure (<5psi). Once fermentation is completed, my plan is to use the pressure in the fermenter to start a siphon directly to a bottle filler attached to a ball lock on the liquid side of the fermzilla lid. The spunding valve I'm looking at has a quick release on it, so my plan is to blow off the excess pressure once the siphon is going as otherwise the pressure will equalize and stop the pour (according to my logic anyway). I'll add the priming sugar directly to the bottles and use a floating dip tube in the fermzilla to keep the trub out of the bottles.

Reasons why:
- I want to limit oxygen exposure to my fermented beer.
- I want to avoid spending extra money and time cleaning on a bottling bucket

I assume that there will be some issues with dialing in the pressure so that I get the siphon to start without creating a bunch of foam. And I also assume that if this idea was possible, I'd have read about it before...

So if this isn't a good idea, what am I missing? Should I not worry so much about o2 exposure for these first basic brews? I look forward to your feedback!

 

[VikeMan]

I would be surprised if you manage to get all of the beer transferred before the flow slows and stops. Quick releasing the pressure via the spunding valve will only hasten the problem. If you were to open the release valve and keep it open, you'd be okay, but of course that would expose the beer to more O2. But perhaps that's an ok tradeoff, since this wasn't truly a closed transfer to start with.

 

[day_trippr]

nvm, wrong notion

 

[bjhbrew]

I’ve bottled spunded beer before. My sop used to be to brew extra, say 7 gallons, put 5 gallons in a keg and bottle the remainder. It’s been awhile but I ended up reducing my batch size because I found the bottling part to be a pain, mostly due to foaming. Some things to consider: you will use less priming sugar due to already having co2 from spunding. Cold crash the fermenter and transfer cold to prevent foaming. I don’t believe the co2 in the fermenter will be adequate to push out all the beer, I think you’ll have to apply some co2 from a tank or open the fermenter and rely on gravity while allowing some air in. Fwiw I usually spunded a little higher so maybe you won’t have the same foaming problem.

 

[mac_1103]

Assuming all the other components of maintaining a gravity-assisted racking exist, one could run a line from the gas post to a container of water to keep air at bay.

I'm confused... beer removed from the fermenter via the liquid post has to be replaced with something and whatever that something is has to come in through the gas post. So isn't this just going to suck water from that container into the fermenter? And if you don't let anything in through the gas post (which seems to be what the OP was planning) then the flow will stop.

I think the only way this works is if you remove the spunding valve and hook up gas to push the beer out at something like 1 PSI. But like I said, I'm confused.

 

[ninkwood]

Thanks for all the feedback!

I want to clarify a few things. 1st, I don't necessarily intend to ferment under pressure (~15psi), but rather plan to always retain 2-3psi of pressure in the fermenter for the purpose of starting a siphon. Some may call this pressure fermenting still but I digress. I'm very new and my intentions on my first few batches is not to make perfect beer but rather learn as much as I can and confirm I want to invest in the hobby. There will be o2 exposure using this method, but theoretically it should be less o2 than racking to a bottling bucket then filling the bottles from there, no?

It sounds like the general consensus is that this method will be finicky to get working either from a pressure equalization standpoint or potentially from foaming (though if I bleed off the fermenter to ~1psi over ambient I should be fine on that end I assume).

I think it's worth fooling around with because I really like the potential of being able to pull samples/bottle without dipping into the fermenter and potentially introducing bacteria and oxygen. With this concept I'm keeping my initial investment down to a couple hundred dollars, and everything I'm buying for this will be reusable down the road if/when I decide to take the leap and keg.

Please feel encouraged to correct any misconceptions I might have, but I think I'll give this a go on my first extract test batch to see if I can get the hang of it.

 

[day_trippr]

I'm confused

So was I - which I was I deleted my comment

 

[wdavis2003]

Like others have said, you won't be able to push all the beer out with the pressure you intend on having in the fermenter and it doesn't sound like you have an external CO2 source to push out the remaining liquid.

If you intend to just draw samples out of the FV, then it will work fine. If you intend to bottle 48 beers, it won't work.

 

[ninkwood]

Like others have said, you won't be able to push all the beer out with the pressure you intend on having in the fermenter and it doesn't sound like you have an external CO2 source to push out the remaining liquid.

If you intend to just draw samples out of the FV, then it will work fine. If you intend to bottle 48 beers, it won't work.

Gotcha, well if it only works for samples I'll be happy with that, and I'll just use a auto siphon for bottling if absolutely necessary. I'll see if I can use the initial pressure to start a siphon for bottling but I get that it might not work out as I intend. I definitely understand that there won't be enough pressure to push all the beer out, and I could see how it'll be difficult to time opening the quick release in a way that doesn't disrupt bottling. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Broothru]

I’ve bottled spunded beer before. My sop used to be to brew extra, say 7 gallons, put 5 gallons in a keg and bottle the remainder. It’s been awhile but I ended up reducing my batch size because I found the bottling part to be a pain, mostly due to foaming. Some things to consider: you will use less priming sugar due to already having co2 from spunding. Cold crash the fermenter and transfer cold to prevent foaming. I don’t believe the co2 in the fermenter will be adequate to push out all the beer, I think you’ll have to apply some co2 from a tank or open the fermenter and rely on gravity while allowing some air in. Fwiw I usually spunded a little higher so maybe you won’t have the same foaming problem.

Counter-pressure bottling nearly eliminates the foaming issue while maintaining the pressurization and mitigating any oxygen concerns.

 

[ninkwood]

I honestly cannot wait to spend the big bucks and do all of this properly with closed keg transfers. I'll probably always bottle since my friends love beer as much as I do and won't have a draft setup. But I'll be bottling from kegs at that stage using counter pressure/beer gun.

For the time being, I want to dip my toes into the hobby before I spend thousands of dollars on equipment.

 

[mac_1103]

I think it's worth fooling around with because I really like the potential of being able to pull samples/bottle without dipping into the fermenter and potentially introducing bacteria and oxygen. With this concept I'm keeping my initial investment down to a couple hundred dollars

A bucket fermenter with a spigot solves that problem for a lot less than a couple hundred dollars.

I honestly cannot wait to spend the big bucks and do all of this properly with closed keg transfers. I'll probably always bottle since my friends love beer as much as I do and won't have a draft setup. But I'll be bottling from kegs at that stage using counter pressure/beer gun.

Just remember that you need to get everything (beer, filler, lines, bottles) ice cold or you will still have foaming issues even with a counter pressure bottle filler. I don't have a kegerator or keezer either, but I have enough extra refrigerator and freezer space to make bottling from kegs work well enough.

 

[Broothru]

I honestly cannot wait to spend the big bucks and do all of this properly with closed keg transfers. I'll probably always bottle since my friends love beer as much as I do and won't have a draft setup. But I'll be bottling from kegs at that stage using counter pressure/beer gun.

For the time being, I want to dip my toes into the hobby before I spend thousands of dollars on equipment.

Closed transfers into a keg followed with counter-pressure bottling is definitely the way to go for mitigating O2. But probably the biggest disappointment in beer hobby equipment for me was the Blichmann Beer Gun. Lots of foaming issues trying to bottle already carbonated beer, and lots of oxygen exposure as well in the process. I doubt if I even used the device more than half a dozen times, and was never pleased with the results. It was easy enough to use, but the results were sub-optimal for me. Blichmann engineers and produces some really neat gear, though in my opinion this one was a dud.

 

[DuncB]

Have to say 100% satisfied with the Williams Warn counter pressure bottle filler. Closed transfers, good stability of the product and neat non messy job. I bottle from Fermentasaurus or the keg with this. Wastage is usually less than 100ml for a 23 litre batch.

 

[ninkwood]

A bucket fermenter with a spigot solves that problem for a lot less than a couple hundred dollars.

The couple hundred is for my whole setup, not just bottling. But you're right in the sense that I could technically bottle for less $ than I am, but I'd be buying a bunch of stuff that I don't plan on using long. Everything I'm buying here will be reused as my brewery grows.

*Two months later*

"Hmm, wish I had an extra bucket laying around "

Honestly I think I just wanna play around with some of this stuff. It won't be practical or else others would be doing it.

 

[wdavis2003]

I own a Tapcooler counter pressure bottle filler but I just fill straight from the tap now. I've had trouble with the extension tube and one time, it came off in the bottle and that was the last straw. I had an extra CO2 tank and an extra regulator laying around so I added about a 8" hose to it that I use to purge bottles/growlers then fill straight from the tap..

So far no issues with oxidation.

 

[Broken Crow]

I've looked at your other posts and I'm kind of trying to respond to all of them here:
Sounds like you're off to a good start, but take your time and allow yourself some 'less than they can be' brews as you go. The All-Rounder is a decent choice of fermenter that affords future exandability and given your stated intention at the start of this post, you may want to consider a tee and ball-valve for the lid:
https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/carbonation-cap-tee-adapter.htmlhttps://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/fermzilla-dryhop-ball-valve.htmlhttps://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/reducer-bushing-3-4-x-half.htmlhttps://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/ss-halfmpt-halfbarb.html

(this is an early picture before I installed the barb for a blow-off tube)
You can use your pressure to start your siphon through the floating diptube and then open the valve to keep it going... It will let air into it, but without as much sloshing around as messing with an auto-siphon.
Since you've expressed a desire to build a keezer, I'd prioritize getting the basic CO2 gear and suggest here to get a decent Micromatic or Taprite (if buying new) and make sure you can get at least 2 outputs from it, wether a built-in wye or with a separate manifold. I can vouch for this one:
https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/taprite-t742-2.htmlThough if you go the EVABarrier route, having an MFL output can you allow you to add tee's to your lines as needed:
https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/taprite-t742hp-02.htmlAlthough the ultimate goal is to avoid O2, there are styles that are more tolerant of it so until you get you're CO2 gear, try and get a few of them made and allow the experience to inform and shape your choices.

 

[ninkwood]

I've looked at your other posts and I'm kind of trying to respond to all of them here:
Sounds like you're off to a good start, but take your time and allow yourself some 'less than they can be' brews as you go. The All-Rounder is a decent choice of fermenter that affords future exandability and given your stated intention at the start of this post, you may want to consider a tee and ball-valve for the lid:
https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/carbonation-cap-tee-adapter.htmlhttps://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/fermzilla-dryhop-ball-valve.htmlhttps://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/reducer-bushing-3-4-x-half.htmlhttps://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/ss-halfmpt-halfbarb.htmlView attachment 835857
(this is an early picture before I installed the barb for a blow-off tube)
You can use your pressure to start your siphon through the floating diptube and then open the valve to keep it going... It will let air into it, but without as much sloshing around as messing with an auto-siphon.
Since you've expressed a desire to build a keezer, I'd prioritize getting the basic CO2 gear and suggest here to get a decent Micromatic or Taprite (if buying new) and make sure you can get at least 2 outputs from it, wether a built-in wye or with a separate manifold. I can vouch for this one:
https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/taprite-t742-2.htmlThough if you go the EVABarrier route, having an MFL output can you allow you to add tee's to your lines as needed:
https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/taprite-t742hp-02.htmlAlthough the ultimate goal is to avoid O2, there are styles that are more tolerant of it so until you get you're CO2 gear, try and get a few of them made and allow the experience to inform and shape your choices.

Awesome! Thanks for this!

You're right, I decidednto dial back the investment for now and start small but I definitely want to work up to the keezer and kegging.

I ended up going with a spunding valve with a built in pressure release for simplicity. Theoretically this should work the same as what you're suggesting, no?

https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/8mm-spundv-ball-lock-disc.html
I can always add some more parts if my plan doesn't work out. I think I just need to get started and accept that experience will dictate my process. I can't plan it all out ahead of time!

 

[Broken Crow]

I was thinking of your first suggestion of starting a siphon with the internal pressure and having a simple way to keep it flowing. I'd imagine if you had a bare disconnect, you could swap the spunding valve out for it once it starts to flow. Without external CO2 though, you will have to let air into it to empty it.

 

[ninkwood]

I was thinking of your first suggestion of starting a siphon with the internal pressure and having a simple way to keep it flowing. I'd imagine if you had a bare disconnect, you could swap the spunding valve out for it once it starts to flow. Without external CO2 though, you will have to let air into it to empty it.

Yeah the air is something I'll just have to live with for the time being. I'm thinking its still better than transferring to a bucket then bottling. No doubt this would be easier with CO2 but I'm not ready for that investment yet. I figure I need 2 tanks since the closest refill is over an hr away and as a noob I'll likely have some "learning experiences" with leaks/running out at inopportune times.

 

[mac_1103]

I'm thinking its still better than transferring to a bucket then bottling.

I'm not sure this is really true. I mean, you certainly could make it worse doing an open transfer (by splashing the beer around a lot for instance), but an all rounder is going to have a pretty large surface area exposed to the air while you're bottling, and air exposure is air exposure.

You should consider ways of capturing fermentation gas and hooking that up (instead of a bare QD) in place of the spunding valve once the siphon is going. You could also get a cheap miniregulator with an adapter for sodastream cylinders.

 

[ninkwood]

I'm not sure this is really true. I mean, you certainly could make it worse doing an open transfer (by splashing the beer around a lot for instance), but an all rounder is going to have a pretty large surface area exposed to the air while you're bottling, and air exposure is air exposure.

You should consider ways of capturing fermentation gas and hooking that up (instead of a bare QD) in place of the spunding valve once the siphon is going. You could also get a cheap miniregulator with an adapter for sodastream cylinders.

That's a great idea! I've thought about getting the hardware to use soda stream bottles as my eventual "backup" for my main CO2 canister anyways. I'm gonna look into this, thanks!

 

[ninkwood]

Update:
I recieved my gear and the ingredients for my first two brews on Friday and got the first in the fermenter yesterday morning.
I don't expect this beer to be all that great. It's an extract kit from obk here in Canada. The recipe is 6lbs of Pilsner lme, 1lb of Pilsner dme, 1 lb of d180 dark candi syrup, 1 oz mittelfruher and a packet of t-58 dry yeast. I was thinking if I'm only going to make 3.5 gallons, I'd like something strong but I probably shouldn't have started with such an expensive kit. Oh well, it's going well so far!

I'm excited to play around with using pressure to pull gravity samples and to potentially bottle without racking off to a bottling bucket. I'll fight that urge for a couple weeks while this finishes up. I'm already looking at adding a mini regulator and a soda stream co2 tank so that I can do this oxygen free as @mac_1103 suggested. Thanks for all the help and please continue to call out my questionable ideas

 

[Yesfan]

I honestly cannot wait to spend the big bucks and do all of this properly with closed keg transfers. I'll probably always bottle since my friends love beer as much as I do and won't have a draft setup. But I'll be bottling from kegs at that stage using counter pressure/beer gun.

For the time being, I want to dip my toes into the hobby before I spend thousands of dollars on equipment.

If you go the Sodastream/mini regulator route, you add a 2 gallon Oxebar PET keg, the ball lock adapter, and a picnic tap. All that from More beer for about $50 more. Oxebar PET 2 gallon keg, Ball Lock Adapter head, and Picnic tap assembly with EVA Barrier line.

That's a bit more pricier, but paired with Mac_1103's suggestion, it's an easy entry to kegging and you can keep using the Oxebar setup for an on the go keg system once you get your keezer/kegs setup.


If you have to keep it cheap, I wonder if a co2 bladder bag and cheap in-line regulator would work. The idea I had was the bag would hold most of the access co2. You could ferment your brew at "full pressure" (15psi) and the regulator, between the bladder and Zilla, would allow you to dial down the pressure to 2-3psi. You'd still have to vent the pressure of the Zilla, but maybe there would be enough pressurized co2 in the bladder to push your beer into X amount of bottles. Just an idea. I really don't know if that would work or not.

Cold Crash Guardian
Kegland In-Line Regulator

 

[mac_1103]

If you have to keep it cheap, I wonder if a co2 bladder bag and cheap in-line regulator would work. The idea I had was the bag would hold most of the access co2. You could ferment your brew at "full pressure" (15psi) and the regulator, between the bladder and Zilla, would allow you to dial down the pressure to 2-3psi. You'd still have to vent the pressure of the Zilla, but maybe there would be enough pressurized co2 in the bladder to push your beer into X amount of bottles. Just an idea. I really don't know if that would work or not.

I've used a cold crash guardian to purge a starsan filled minikeg, and pushing liquid is pushing liquid so this idea should work in theory. Seems like using one to push beer into bottles will make bottling a two person job though.

 

[ninkwood]

If you go the Sodastream/mini regulator route, you add a 2 gallon Oxebar PET keg, the ball lock adapter, and a picnic tap. All that from More beer for about $50 more. Oxebar PET 2 gallon keg, Ball Lock Adapter head, and Picnic tap assembly with EVA Barrier line.

That's a bit more pricier, but paired with Mac_1103's suggestion, it's an easy entry to kegging and you can keep using the Oxebar setup for an on the go keg system once you get your keezer/kegs setup.


If you have to keep it cheap, I wonder if a co2 bladder bag and cheap in-line regulator would work. The idea I had was the bag would hold most of the access co2. You could ferment your brew at "full pressure" (15psi) and the regulator, between the bladder and Zilla, would allow you to dial down the pressure to 2-3psi. You'd still have to vent the pressure of the Zilla, but maybe there would be enough pressurized co2 in the bladder to push your beer into X amount of bottles. Just an idea. I really don't know if that would work or not.

Cold Crash Guardian
Kegland In-Line Regulator

I like the "entry level keg setup" here. I've been ordering from OBK in Canada exclusively so far, I haven't really looked into what's available in the US as paying duties alone is a massive PITA. The Canadian boarder service and I are not on the best of terms with how they've treated some of the other things I've imported... Let's leave it at that lol.

I ended up buying the mini reg and SodaStream bottle, and finished this batch and got it all bottled without any issues. It wasn't smooth, but the first time I do something rarely is. I found what worked best was to bottle with about 2-3 psi in the fermenter. This kept foam down but flow rate wasn't too bad either. I primed each bottle individually with corn sugar before filling. Then when the flow slowed I would give the fermenter a blast of CO2 back up to 2-3psi and then keep going. I preferred this over leaving constant pressure on the fermenter since the gauge on the mini regulator is extremely inaccurate. It won't register below ~10psi. I'm going to fix that going forward but for this batch I just popped my spunding valve back on and used that to measure where I was at. Tedious but as far as I can tell, my beer never met oxygen aside from what was in the bottles.

My plan going forward is to buy a couple more fermzilla all-rounds. I've looked at some of the other options for dryhopping and I don't want to fuss around with magnets, and the kegland hop bong looks like an expensive headache to me. Why spend $175 on a single use product when I can buy another 2 fermenters for the same price? I figure if I have 3 fermzillas I'll have a ton of flexibility. I could brew more often, use one as a secondary for dry hoping or other additions post primary, and I could even earmark one as a serving vessel. My garage is -2°c to 10°c from about October 15 to March 15 so as long as I keep an eye on things when it's colder out I should be able to serve without refrigeration most of that period of time. And there are things I can do to bring temps down when nature isn't doing that for me. I think that will be my "entry" into kegging but for now my goal is to fill my 36 1 Litre bottles (12 litre batches are as big as I can go for now). Once those are full and I have a batch ready to drink, I'll try serving straight from the fermzilla!